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Featured A challenge to all Christians

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Harikrish, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    It doesn't say God is resentful about it, but that interpolation could have a basis considering history. The story clashes with the culture of other local nations where the gods determine right and wrong, because in this story people have obtained that power. It undermines the moral authority of gods and is a rebellious story, a version of Prometheus about stealing morality instead of technology. There is a time when Genesis says the LORD is resentful in Genesis 9, but its a different story. In that case the resentment is because of violence. The LORD resents violence. Also its possible that the LORD does not resent them eating the fruit, because why else would it be in the garden. Someone was supposed to eat it eventually, at least a giraffe or goat. They'll eat anything.
    What matters to me is that they eat and become equal to any gods (who lie all the time by the way), and Genesis 3 is seditious material. Doubtless it angers the priests of many gods and the nobility. The kings of their day aspire to be considered gods, but this fruit undermines the divine right of kings which is a good thing not a bad thing.
    Ok, so you are thinking that mortality is an evil thing? Acceptance of mortality is often considered a mark of maturity, because a child becomes an adult and realizes the future lies with another generation. Its natural to wonder whether to entrust children with power or to give them gods that will guarantee they live a particular way. I think this story we call Genesis says to trust them and teach them to do the same for the next lot.
    There is a serpent in the garden and both kinds of fruit. Somebody puts them there. Its not an accident.
    Thanks for your gracious reply, too. I hope I am not too brusque. I try to be pleasant.
     
  2. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Except that God kicked them out of the Garden for the explicit and sole purpose of stopping them from doing so.
     
  3. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    Right, so that they would die, just like he told them they would if they ate from the tree of knowledge. 930 years later Adam died.
     
  4. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    "Original sin, also called ancestral sin, is the Christian doctrine of humanity's state of sin resulting from the fall of man, stemming from Adam and Eve's rebellion in Eden, namely the sin of disobedience in consuming from the tree of knowledge of good and evil."
     
  5. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Actually, the understanding here is wrong. The word "die" in the original Hebrew is plural and not singular. The definition of "death" isn't just "we cease to live" nor is it necessarily instant in all the process (thought some is)

    Man is a three part being. His spirit was instantly separated from the Spirit of God. This part was instant and is the first death. It is spirit first (that which we cannot see) and then physical (that what we can see), much like the fig tree that Jesus cursed.

    It then began to affect his soul by changing the way he thought. He now lied. This is an ongoing process and is a process of death.

    It finally manifested in the natural where he physically died.

    Thus, God did not lie for the death was instant (spiritually) and culminated with physical.
     
  6. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    Most Christians are scripturally ignorant. That is why there are 33,000 denominations of Christians. There isn't any christian that is an authority on scriptures that could help unify the fractured Christian body.

    But that is not an excuse to skip the first few chapters of Genesis. How can Christian afford to get stumped by the first few chapters in Genesis?
     
  7. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

    The verse tells us God was determined Adam must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever. This tells us Adam had now eaten from the first tree (tree of knowledge), he must be stopped from also eating from the second tree (the tree of life) which would let him live forever. If Adam had already eaten from the second tree then it would have been too late for God to stop him from living forever.
     
  8. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    God confirmed what the serpent had told Eve, their eyes would be opened and they would become like God. Becoming like God is hardly spiritual death.
    Genesis 3:4 you will certainly not die. 5 For God knows when you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will become like God.

    Die definition, to cease to live; undergo the complete and permanent cessation of all vital physiological functions; become dead.

    Adam and Eve did not die (to cease to live; undergo the complete and permanent cessation of all vital physiological functions; become dead) after eating the forbidden fruit.

    Adam and Eve continued to worship and thank the lord for their children. They even taught theur children to make offerings to a God. And God continued to communicate with Adam and Eve and their family.
    A day in Genesis is normal 24 hour day. A day is divided into light and darkness. There is the light (day time) and the darkness (night). The concept of a day being like a 1000 years was alluded by Peter who was using the example from Psalms.we are talking about Genesis.

    "2 Peter 3:8–9 reads:
    ‘But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.’
    The first thing to note that the context has nothing to do with the days of creation. Also, it is not defining a day because it doesn’t say ‘a day isa thousand years’. The correct understanding is derived from the context—the Apostle Peter’s readers should not lose heart because God seems slow at fulfilling His promises because He is patient, and also because He is not bound by time as we are.
    The text says ‘one day is like [or as] a thousand years’—the word ‘like’ (or ‘as’) shows that it is a figure of speech, called a simile, to teach that God is outside of time (because He is the Creator of time itself). In fact, the figure of speech is so effective in its intended aim precisely because the day is literal and contrasts so vividly with 1000 years—to the eternal Creator of time, a short period of time and a long period of time may as well be the same.
    The fact that the passage is actually contrasting a short and long period can be shown by the fact that Peter is quoting Psalm 90:4 (Peter’s statement ‘do not forget’ implies that his readers were expected to recall something, and this passage has this very teaching). This reads:
    ‘For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.’
    This is synonymous parallelism, where a long period of a thousand years is contrasted with two short periods: a day, and a night watch. But those who try to use this verse to teach that the days of Genesis might be 1000 years long forget the additional part in bold. For if they were consistent, they would have to say that a watch in the night here also means 1000 years. It’s difficult to imagine that a Psalmist (Psalm 63:6) is thinking on his bed for thousands of years or that his eyes stay open for thousands of years (Psalm 119:148).
    The immediate context of the Psalm is the frailty of mere mortal man in comparison to God. This verse amplifies the teaching, saying that no matter how long a time interval is from man’s time-bound perspective, it’s like a twinkling of an eye from God’s eternal perspective.
    In any case, the meaning of ‘day’ in Genesis 1 is defined by the context there—the Hebrew word for day, yôm ‫יום ‬, is used with the words ‘evening’ and ‘morning’, and the days are numbered (first day, second day, etc.). Whenever yôm is used in such a context, it is always an ordinary day, never a long period of time. The meaning of the days of creation as ordinary days is also affirmed by Exodus 20:8–11, where God told the Israelites to work for six days and rest on the seventh because God had made all things in six days and rested on the seventh. For more information, see other articles in Q&A: Genesis under ‘Days of Creation’."
     
  9. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    That's sort of dense that you cling to the opinion as fact. Adam and Eve had been eating freely from the tree of life, since it was never forbidden for them to do. After they ate the forbidden fruit God kicked them out of the garden of Eden, they no longer had access to the tree of life and so they died 930 some years later. In keeping with what God had said, in the day that you eat of it you will surely die.

    2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
     
  10. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    The original sin was God lying to Adam that he would die in/on the day he ate the fruit.

    According to genesis 2:16 God told Adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil for when he ate it he would die.

    The talking serpent corrects Eve understanding about the poisonous tree of knowledge.
    Genesis 3:Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, "You must not eat from any tree in the garden"?"

    2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.""

    4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

    Now we have two opposing choices Eve is faced with (Eve's dilemma). Who spoke the truth God or the serpent?

    1. Eat the fobidden fruit and you will die according to God to Adam.
    2. Eat from it and their eyes will be opened and they will be like God knowing good and evil according to the serpent to,Eve.

    Eve ate the forbidden fruit and gave some to Adam.
    1. The first thing they noticed was their eyes were opened exactly as the serpent told Eve.
    Genesis 3:7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

    2. They did not die after eating the forbidden fruit. So God was lying.
    Genesis 3:Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, "Where are you?"
    10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
    11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

    3. God confirms in scriptures he was lying because he offers the same explanation as the serpent offered to Eve :" Eat from it and your eyes will be opened and you will be like God knowing good and evil."

    Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

    God goes a step further and stops Adam and Eve from reaching out to take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

    So not only were Adam send Eve created as mortals. They were now denied access to the tree of life which would have allowed them to live forever. They certainly did not die as God had warned, in fact he said they would continue to live and work which totally contradicted his warning that they would die if they ate the firbidden fruit.

    Genesis 3: 23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

    So we know death did not come into the world because Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Death come into the world when God killed the first animals to make garments of skin for Adam and Eve and because he denied access to Adam and Eve the tree of life which would have allowed them to live forever.

    Die definition, to cease to live; undergo the complete and permanent cessation of all vital physiological functions; become dead.

    Adam and Eve did not die (to cease to live; undergo the complete and permanent cessation of all vital physiological functions; become dead).after eating the forbidden fruit.

    Adam and Eve continued to worship and thank the lord for their children. They even taught theur children to make offerings to a God. And God continued to communicate with Adam and Eve and their family.
     
  11. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    First you produce nothing, only that you have nothing only taking things out of there contexts.

    First Adam and Eve did not commit the original sin.
    Second who is death, What is his name

    Third God never told Adam and Eve that they would die, right at the very moment of eating from the tree.

    Forth Satan himself is not in this world, Satan's Spirit is in the world, but not Satan personally himself.

    Satan and his angels are being restrained by Micheal the Archangel and his angels. Until the 6th trump sounds in the book of Revelation.

    If you had any idea what your talking about, unto which you have not a single clue what your saying.

    What you trying to do, is like trying to tell a NASA rocket scientist they have no idea about how a Rocket works.
    Good Luck on that one.
    And your going to try tell those who are well versed in the Bible.
    You are way to funny.
     
  12. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    If God made creation perfect why was there death in the Garden of Eden? God did not tell them the forbidden fruit was poisonous. He told them it contained knowledge of good and evil. The serpent assured Eve they would not die if they ate the fruit. Instead theur eyes would be opened and they would become like God knowing good and evil. Which is exactly what happened. Even God confirmed they had now become like God.

    Answer: 2 Peter 3:8–9 reads:
    ‘But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.’
    The first thing to note that the context has nothing to do with the days of creation. Also, it is not defining a day because it doesn’t say ‘a day isa thousand years’. The correct understanding is derived from the context—the Apostle Peter’s readers should not lose heart because God seems slow at fulfilling His promises because He is patient, and also because He is not bound by time as we are.
    The text says ‘one day is like [or as] a thousand years’—the word ‘like’ (or ‘as’) shows that it is a figure of speech, called a simile, to teach that God is outside of time (because He is the Creator of time itself). In fact, the figure of speech is so effective in its intended aim precisely because the day is literal and contrasts so vividly with 1000 years—to the eternal Creator of time, a short period of time and a long period of time may as well be the same.
    The fact that the passage is actually contrasting a short and long period can be shown by the fact that Peter is quoting Psalm 90:4 (Peter’s statement ‘do not forget’ implies that his readers were expected to recall something, and this passage has this very teaching). This reads:
    ‘For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.’
    This is synonymous parallelism, where a long period of a thousand years is contrasted with two short periods: a day, and a night watch. But those who try to use this verse to teach that the days of Genesis might be 1000 years long forget the additional part in bold. For if they were consistent, they would have to say that a watch in the night here also means 1000 years. It’s difficult to imagine that a Psalmist (Psalm 63:6) is thinking on his bed for thousands of years or that his eyes stay open for thousands of years (Psalm 119:148).
    The immediate context of the Psalm is the frailty of mere mortal man in comparison to God. This verse amplifies the teaching, saying that no matter how long a time interval is from man’s time-bound perspective, it’s like a twinkling of an eye from God’s eternal perspective.
    In any case, the meaning of ‘day’ in Genesis 1 is defined by the context there—the Hebrew word for day, yôm ‫יום ‬, is used with the words ‘evening’ and ‘morning’, and the days are numbered (first day, second day, etc.). Whenever yôm is used in such a context, it is always an ordinary day, never a long period of time. The meaning of the days of creation as ordinary days is also affirmed by Exodus 20:8–11, where God told the Israelites to work for six days and rest on the seventh because God had made all things in six days and rested on the seventh. For more information, see other articles in Q&A: Genesis under ‘Days of Creation’.
     
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  13. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    But they did not die on the day they ate the forbidden fruit. And when they died some 930 years later their death was not cause by the fruit they ate 930 years before. They died of natural old age. Nothing sinful about that. They were humans and created mortal according to scriptures. They had to eat from the tree of life (second tree) which would allow them to live forever. But God denied them access to the second tree after they ate from the first tree (the tree of knowledge).

    Answer: 2 Peter 3:8–9 reads:
    ‘But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.’
    The first thing to note that the context has nothing to do with the days of creation. Also, it is not defining a day because it doesn’t say ‘a day isa thousand years’. The correct understanding is derived from the context—the Apostle Peter’s readers should not lose heart because God seems slow at fulfilling His promises because He is patient, and also because He is not bound by time as we are.
    The text says ‘one day is like [or as] a thousand years’—the word ‘like’ (or ‘as’) shows that it is a figure of speech, called a simile, to teach that God is outside of time (because He is the Creator of time itself). In fact, the figure of speech is so effective in its intended aim precisely because the day is literal and contrasts so vividly with 1000 years—to the eternal Creator of time, a short period of time and a long period of time may as well be the same.
    The fact that the passage is actually contrasting a short and long period can be shown by the fact that Peter is quoting Psalm 90:4 (Peter’s statement ‘do not forget’ implies that his readers were expected to recall something, and this passage has this very teaching). This reads:
    ‘For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.’
    This is synonymous parallelism, where a long period of a thousand years is contrasted with two short periods: a day, and a night watch. But those who try to use this verse to teach that the days of Genesis might be 1000 years long forget the additional part in bold. For if they were consistent, they would have to say that a watch in the night here also means 1000 years. It’s difficult to imagine that a Psalmist (Psalm 63:6) is thinking on his bed for thousands of years or that his eyes stay open for thousands of years (Psalm 119:148).
    The immediate context of the Psalm is the frailty of mere mortal man in comparison to God. This verse amplifies the teaching, saying that no matter how long a time interval is from man’s time-bound perspective, it’s like a twinkling of an eye from God’s eternal perspective.
    In any case, the meaning of ‘day’ in Genesis 1 is defined by the context there—the Hebrew word for day, yôm ‫יום ‬, is used with the words ‘evening’ and ‘morning’, and the days are numbered (first day, second day, etc.). Whenever yôm is used in such a context, it is always an ordinary day, never a long period of time. The meaning of the days of creation as ordinary days is also affirmed by Exodus 20:8–11, where God told the Israelites to work for six days and rest on the seventh because God had made all things in six days and rested on the seventh. For more information, see other articles in Q&A: Genesis under ‘Days of Creation’.
     
  14. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    You're just not putting it together. I give up.
     
  15. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    God confirmed what the serpent had told Eve, their eyes would be opened and they would become like God. Becoming like God is hardly spiritual death.
    Genesis 3:4 you will certainly not die. 5 For God knows when you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will become like God.

    Die definition, to cease to live; undergo the complete and permanent cessation of all vital physiological functions; become dead.

    Adam and Eve did not die (to cease to live; undergo the complete and permanent cessation of all vital physiological functions; become dead) after eating the forbidden fruit.

    Adam and Eve continued to worship and thank the lord for their children. They even taught theur children to make offerings to a God. And God continued to communicate with Adam and Eve and their family.
     
  16. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    How am I taking things out of context.
    1. Adam and Eve did not commit the original sin.
    That is what I said. It was God who committed the first sin. God lied to Adam and he caused death by killing animals to make skin garments for Adam and Eve.

    2. What is death?
    Die definition, to cease to live; undergo the complete and permanent cessation of all vital physiological functions; become dead.

    3. God never told Adam and Eve that they would die, right at the very moment of eating from the tree.

    Read verse.
    Genesis 2:17 KJV: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    God told Adam in/on the day he ate the fruit he would surely die. No, ifs or buts. If God just said don't eat the fruit or you will die, then no timeframe was included. But God was specific in/on when you eat the fruit you will surely die.

    In any case, the meaning of ‘day’ in Genesis 1 is defined by the context there—the Hebrew word for day, yôm ‫יום ‬, is used with the words ‘evening’ and ‘morning’, and the days are numbered (first day, second day, etc.). Whenever yôm is used in such a context, it is always an ordinary day, never a long period of time. The meaning of the days of creation as ordinary days is also affirmed by Exodus 20:8–11, where God told the Israelites to work for six days and rest on the seventh because God had made all things in six days and rested on the seventh. For more information, see other articles in Q&A: Genesis under ‘Days of Creation’.

    4. Forth Satan himself is not in this world, Satan's Spirit is in the world, but not Satan personally himself.

    2 Corinthians 4:4 NLT. Satan who is God of the world.
    A further tie-up between the serpent of Genesis 3 and Satan, or the devil, is given in Revelation 12:9 and 20:2:
    ‘And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world’
    The word ‘Satan" means ‘adversary’—primarily to God, secondarily to men; the term ‘devil’ signifies ‘slanderer’ of God to men, and of men to God.’2
     
  17. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    Please don't give up. I am a biblical scholar and I am working on my thesis on textual criticism of scriptures.
     
  18. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    You're a Harikrishna so you're only looking for negative criticism of scriptures?
     
  19. Harikrish

    Harikrish Active Member

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    Not at all. I am applying my Biblical scholarship on religious forums to get feedback for my thesis.
     
  20. Kemosloby

    Kemosloby Well-Known Member
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    I would give you a C, about average.
     
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