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144,000?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Green Gaia, Nov 18, 2004.

  1. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    I love how he apoligizes in caps for writing in caps... :rolleyes: If that wasn't on purpose I'll eat my underwear....
     
  2. precept

    precept Member

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    Even the giant sequoia[nature] are finite! And can be destroyed.


    precept
     
  3. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    The reason why these verses are different are because they are supposed to be different. The operative words at the beginning of Revelation 7:9 being "After this I looked" and in the NWT: "After these things I saw". In otherwords, when the Apostle John wrote "After", he means exactly that - after - in otherwords, two seperate and different entitities. The 144,000 refered to in Revelation is much different to the "Great multitude" or "Great Crowd that no man could number" mentioned in Revelation 7:9. What are their symbolic differences and what do they represent? I'll get to the 144,000 later - but first, I'll explain what is meant by the "Great crowd".

    The identity of the "Great crowd" - who are they?

    The key to the identification of the "great crowd" is found within the description of them in Revelation chapter 7 and in obviously parallel passages. Revelation 7:15-17 speaks of God as ‘spreading his tent over them,’ of their being guided to "fountains of waters of life," and of God’s wiping "every tear from their eyes." At Revelation 21:2-4 we find parallel expressions: ‘God’s tent being with mankind,’ his ‘wiping every tear from their eyes,’ and ‘death being no more.’ The vision there presented is concerning persons not in heaven, from where the ‘New Jerusalem comes down,’ but on earth, among mankind.

    This poses the question: If the "great crowd" are persons who gain salvation and remain on earth, how could they be said to be ‘standing before God’s throne and before the Lamb’? (Re 7:9) The position of ‘standing’ is sometimes used in the Bible to indicate the holding of a favored or approved position in the eyes of the one in whose presence the individual or group stands. (Ps 1:5; 5:5; Pr 22:29, AT; Lu 1:19) In fact, in the previous chapter of Revelation, "the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person" are depicted as seeking to hide themselves "from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" (Re 6:15-17; compare Lu 21:36.) It thus appears that the "great crowd" is formed of those persons who have been preserved during that time of wrath and who have been able to "stand" as approved by God and the Lamb.

    The sum of the evidence, therefore, points to the "great crowd" as representing all those persons who are not of the heavenly "bride" class, or 144,000 sealed ones, but who stand approved at the time of the "great tribulation" and are preserved alive on earth.

    Conclusion: Therefore, by looking at different passages which point to the same thing, the "Great Crowd" refered to in the visions of the Apostle John are people who have an earthly hope and are not part of the anointed, whereas the "144,000" don't have an eartly hope but have a heavenly one, and are part of the anointed - two different but very unique counterparts.
     
  4. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Revelation 14:3 says: "And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth."

    "And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads." (Revelation 14:1)

    Who are the 144,000? What do they represent? Where do they come from? By using the Bible itself, we know the answer to this question. If you doubt the scriptures I use - look them up in your own Bible and find out for yourself! Honestly, I have nothing to hide and am not creating a "slant", but am just to showing you the truth of the Bible.

    At Revelation 14:1, 3 the Bible says: "And I saw, and, look! the Lamb [Jesus Christ] standing upon the [heavenly] Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand . . . who have been bought [or, taken] from the earth." Note that only 144,000 persons are seen with the Lamb, Jesus Christ, on heavenly Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22) So rather than all good people going to heaven, the Bible reveals that only 144,000 tried and faithful persons will be taken there to rule with Christ.

    Why chosen from earth? Why does God choose these rulers from among humankind? Why not have angels rule with Christ? Well, it was here at the earth that Jehovah’s right to rule was challenged. It was here that the faithfulness of men to God could be put to the test under opposition from the Devil. It was here that Jesus proved his full loyalty to God under test and gave his life as a ransom for mankind. So it was from the earth that Jehovah arranged to take a "little flock" of persons to be associated with his Son in the heavenly kingdom. They are the ones who, by their faithfulness to God, proved false the Devil’s charge that men serve God only for selfish reasons. It is fitting, therefore, that Jehovah uses these humans for his glory.—Ephesians 1:9-12.

    Also, think how wonderful it will be to have as rulers persons who proved faithful to God on earth, many of them even sacrificing their lives in behalf of the Kingdom. (Revelation 12:10, 11; 20:4) Angels have not faced such kind of testings. Nor have they experienced the problems common to humankind. So they would not fully understand what it is like to be a sinful human and to have the problems we humans do. But the 144,000 will understand because they have had these very problems. Some of them have had to overcome very sinful practices, and they know how hard it can be to do so. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) Therefore, they will deal with their earthly subjects in an understanding way.—Hebrews 2:17, 18.

    It is true that Revelation’s description does tell us that there are some who will receive a heavenly resurrection, being called "the first resurrection," and that they will be priests of God and of Christ. These 144,000, being priests in heaven, will, of necessity, see those who are resurrected to live on earth, for they will be ministering to them to assist them.—Luke 12:32; Rev. 20:4, 6; 14:1.

    Conclusion: These chosen 144,000 are the only people on this planet who will go to heaven - while the rest of us have the prospect of living in a beautiful paradise on earth. The Bible says of the "Great Crowd" who have an earthly prospect: Psalms 37:29: "The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it." And the Bible describes the conditions of the earth Revelation 21: 3 and 4: "With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away."

    P.S. If you want me to elaborate on anything, feel free to ask. :)






     
  5. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    WitnessOfJah, do you K(NOW) how many of the 144,000 are left in the physical and can you share this information with us?
     
  6. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    i don't think one human can confirm that another is of the 144k.it is a matter of personal revelation in their belief.to them the gates were closed 70 yrs ago as well.
     
  7. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    The WTS teaches that only the anointed 144,000 seen in Revelation 7 will enter heaven (the "anointed class"), while the remainder that are not annihilated (the "other sheep") will live forever on earth in paradise. However, the Bible poses some irreconcilable difficulties with this idea.

    If Revelation 7 is to be taken literally, there would only be 144,000 Jewish male virgins taken from a square shaped earth that are now in heaven worshipping a sheep. This would mean that Peter (not a virgin), the Blessed Mother (not a male), and Charles Taze Russell (not a Jew) could not be in heaven. Reading one number literally while taking the rest of a book symbolically is not sound exegesis. Beyond this, we see in Revelation 14 that the 144,000 stand before the 24 elders from Revelation 4:4. This at least brings the grand total to 144,024 people. But, the Scriptures indicate that there are still more to come. Revelation 7:9 speaks of a countless multitude before the throne, which is in heaven (Rev. 14:2-3). Still in the book of Revelation, we read that all those with their name in the book of life are in heaven (Rev. 21:27), while all whose names are not in the book of life are thrown into the pool of fire (Rev. 20:15). There is no third "earthly" class. Jesus reiterates this, and never speaks of two flocks. He has one bride, whose "reward is great in heaven" (Luke 6:23). Paul even exhorts the Christian community, calling them to remember, "As for us, our citizenship exists in the heavens" (Phil. 3:20).

    The JWs attempt to use verses such as Psalms 37:29 as evidence that the just are to inherit the land forever, which is earth. In context, this refers to inheriting the promised land as a sign of God’s blessing in the Old Testament. But, Hebrews 11:8-16 indicates that there is a homeland better than the promised land on earth, and this is the heavenly one for those who die in faith. The Old Testament patriarchs "publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land . . . they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. . . . But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. . . . God . . . has made a city ready for them. . . .These [OT men and women] did not get the [fulfillment of the] promise . . . as God foresaw something better for us" (Heb. 11:13-16,39-40). Even the footnote of the NWT makes clear that the "city" spoken of in these verses is the heavenly Jerusalem mentioned in Hebrews 12:22 and Revelation 21:2. But, the Watchtower still maintains that no one that lived before Christ will ever enter heaven. "The apostle Paul in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews names a long list of faithful men who died before the crucifixion of the Lord. . . . These can never be a part of the heavenly class" (Millions Now Living, p. 89). Only the 144,000 elite that all lived after the death of Christ will supposedly go to heaven. Matthew 8:11-12 provides severe difficulties for this idea, since Jesus proclaims, "many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens; whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be." No verse could be clearer in declaring that the patriarchs are in heaven. The following verses all demonstrate that Christians go to heaven, and do not remain on earth: 2 Corinthians 5:1; Hebrews 3:1; Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 1:4-5; 1 Peter 1:4.

    www.catholic.com
     
  8. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    "Even the giant sequoia[nature] are finite! And can be destroyed."

    Yet a giant sequoia is not man made. Nor tries to tell me what god is or isn't. Or tells me how I should live, etc... The tree is not someone elses opinion in which can be destroyed.
     
  9. precept

    precept Member

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    The subject of the 144,000 saints is as simple as "He is not a Jew which is one outwardly[this rules out Judaism without Christ]; but he is a Jew; WHICH IS ONE inwardly and circumcision is that of the heart".[includes all; both Jews and Gentiles who accept Christ as Saviour]. Romans 2:28,29

    The above conclusion is further supported with " If ye be Christ's then are YE ABRAHAM'S SEED AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE." Galatians 3:29

    And the promise to abraham? was the PROMISE OF SALVATION through Abraham's PROMISED SEED--JESUS CHRIST THE RIGHTEOUS.

    The twelve tribes of Abraham were made up of "Abraham's seed". Hence the twelve tribes are made up of those who are of "Christ's"Christians[Galatians 3:29]

    The 144,000 saints are taken from among all who are of Christ's, Jews and Gentiles alike. They are a special group who are identified as follows:

    1/ They are living saints who are living on the earth when God pours out the seven last plagues of Revelation 15:1 and Revelation 18:4 and described in Revelation chapter 16.

    2/ They are sealed from the twelve tribes of Israel as in the "seed of Abraham, or children who are of Christ's"."Heirs according to the promise"[Galatians 3:29]

    3/ They are the saved; as is seen in verse 9 of Revelation chapter 7 who are "clothed with white robes"... As also are the same saints who in verse 13 are described as "arrayed in white robes" when the query is made as to "who are they?"; and while using the clothing of "white robes" to point out those of whom the query was made.

    The 144,000 saints are then described as "those who came out of great tribulation"[they survived the terror that the experience of the seven last plagues was, to all living humans; saints and sinners alike]...verse 14; having "washed their robes, and made them "WHITE" in the blood of the Lamb".

    "They shall hunger no more" is reference made to the devastation of the plagues as described in Revelation chapter 16. ...when "every living soul died in the sea" as in no fish to eat....as in when all fresh water was turned into literal blood; which would make all living animals including fish die in all rivers and lakes....also making no drinking water available to anyone.

    In the plague of "heat"; the heat was so unbearable that famines would have resulted...making food hard to come by; and with no potable water; and men in agony of uncurable sores; and with no water to wash or use in any way; men "blasphemed"; as they curse the name of God .

    But the seventh plague of "hail", the weight of a "talent", would have destroyed property; cultivated fields, if any were remaining after the drought and famines; buildings of all variety pelted relentlessly with solid ice weighing in excess of 56 lbs would have been severely damaged or would have been destroyed........
    And these the saints of God would have been living during these trying times; and experiencing hunger and deprivation and loss of housing; but never losing hope or denying the love of their Saviour.

    These; the 144,000 saints are in fact, hundreds of thousands of living True Christians, who will be living during the time of the seven last plagues; and this; in contradistinction to the "false Christians" who will also be living alongside the "True Christians".

    These; the "True Christians" may be less or more than 144,000 in number.

    The number 144,000, represents only in figure the total of Jacob's twelve literal sons; showing that only a small number of each tribe represented as living during the time of the plagues; a number represented as twelve thousand; in contradistinction to the millions of persons who have been born into each separate tribe of Jacob; and who are represented as the godly seed of Abraham; and who having died over the many centuries with the blessed hope as exampled in Job 19:25-27; but who did not experience the time of tribulation during the seven last plagues as 144,000 saints did....

    This symbolism is the same as the symbolism of "Christ sitting on the throne of David". as in Christ ruling His kingdom of saints as David ruled his earthly kingdom of Judah.

    Any and all "True Christians" living during the time of the seven last plagues; are automatically numbered among the 144,000 saints whom God sealed before He "Hurt the earth; the sea; and the trees" in Revelation 7:3.


    precept
     
  10. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    are you saying the 'corners' of the earth was literal as we read it today and that the bible taught a flat earth?
     
  11. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    It seems that god does the weirdest things to try and be all 'mysterious'. Now it's just like, "144,000 people? Rhiiight God. Whatever."
     
  12. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Around 8000 today partake of the emblems of Jesus mentioned in Matthew 26 and Mark 14 - however that figure could be much lower due to false proclaimers. Most of these people are eldery people - so they cannot go on for a few more decades at the most - therefore, nor can this system. The great tribulation and Armaggedon (Rev 16:16) will most probably come in our lifetimes. Most people dispute this, however Luke 12:40 says: "YOU also, keep ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think likely the Son of man is coming." Just like 9/11 came out of nowhere (as bad as it was), so will the end of this wicked system of things. Watch this space....
     
  13. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Out of pure observation, I have noticed that pretty much everybody in this thread (apart from a few) is condemning the fact that the 144,000 are the only selected ones going to heaven - but cannot explain a feasible answer why that figure exists in Revelation. The figure "144,000" is not some random figure which has been thrown into the book of Revelation for the sake of it - the Apostle John was given this vison of Revelation in which the 144,000 had special meaning. The only "possible theory" that I have seen in this thread about the figure 144,000 is that it stood for the 12 x 12,000 tribes of the Israelites, therefore, refering to Israel. However, ask yourself this question: Why would God give the Apostle John a "Revelation" (i.e. prophecies) of a physical state of Isreal that went back thousands of years before? It does'nt make sense, does it? The only realistic answer could be that it actaully refered to a symbolic state of Israel that refered to the future.

    I have personally have had the priviledge of meeting a few of the 144,000 - and they truly are special people! When you walk up to them and talk to them, you can sense a feeling of something "extraordinary" and "special" - they are not normal like every other human being. When you ask them about how they know that they know who they are, they say "it is like knowing whether you are a male or female" - it is that clear! They themselves do not doubt whatsoever who they are - they have been chosen by God and factually know.

    SOGFPP, I'll get to you later when I have the time. ;)
     
  14. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    No so much as in the fact that there are some people who are just trying to grasp the understanding of the 144,000 and then trying to understand why Jehovah Wittness’s believe the way they do. I am sure that this is one of the reasons why you have arrived to Religious Forums.



    If I REMEMBER CORRECTLY the apostle John was a prisoner on Patmos around 96 C.E. where Relevations was written. I also heard that he was heavily medicated during his imprisonment.



    Another possibility to consider would BE how do we K(NOW) that the apostle John was actually inspired by GOD to write the book of Revelations? You have to keep in mind that there are some people who are not devoted to faith.



    I have personally had the privilege of meeting “regular” (non-anointed) Jehovah Witnesses that are truly special people as there are people on this very site. You WitnessOfJah just happen to fall in both catagories.

    I think the problem you might encounter with this doctrine is that some people will have a problem with Jehovah’s rank and file system or the fact that Jehovah “chooses” certain people for certain “advantages”. This concern may stem from when we were youths and possibly overlooked for playground activities, it’s disheartening to say the least. There are also many people who take their REALationship with GOD very seriously and through their particular faith cannot wait to return home to heaven and BE with GOD. The ministry of Jehovah’s Witnesses can be challenging but it is important to REMEMBER that every time you approach any individual you are approaching an individual who does not have or live by the same Bible as you do.


     
  15. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    First of all, I want to say that there is a-lot of misinformation and uneducated assumptions in this post. I'm not sure where you got all this info, but it has definitely been given a "slant" to say things that we never did say. With that said, let me wade through it all…







    The problem is that we never said that Revelation 7 was to be taken literally...ever. We are very aware that most of the book of Revelation is symbolic - including chapter 7.







    This kind of observation of the scriptures is nonsensical. For example, from a human perspective, if 1000 people were to stand before the King and Queen, you say “1000 people stood before the king and queen”, not “there is 1002 people who stood before the King and Queen” – it does’nt make sense – because in reality, it is describing two distinct and separate entities. The “24 elders” described are Jesus’ priestly associates and part of the institution of the heavenly realm and therefore would not be included in the heavenly class that came from earth. If, according to you, there was 144,024 + more, why does the Bible only specify 144,000 exactly in Revelation 14:3? Why not more? Also, you have not been reading what I have been writing – I explained to “Ronald” a few posts before in this thread that the “Great multitude” is distinctly separate from the “144,000” – with biblical references provided.







    Revelation 21:27 does not refer to mankind in general but actually is directed to the heavenly class of the 144,000. It says: “But anything not sacred and anyone that carries on a disgusting thing and a lie will in no way enter into it; only those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life [will]." How do we know that is only referring to the 144,000? Well if you examine the context it was said in by looking at Revelation 21 and 22, a “New Jerusalem” was described which represented heaven (Revelation 21:9-11a). When the Apostle John was given this vision from the vantage point of that towering mountain, John surveys the beauteous “city” in all its lovely detail. It is the magnificent spiritual city, composed of 144,000 loyal integrity keepers, resplendent in its holiness and reflecting the very glory of Jehovah. On the “City’s” 12 gates, there are inscribed the names of the 12 tribes of Israel. Therefore, this symbolic city is made up of the 144,000, who were sealed “out of every tribe of the sons of Israel.” (Revelation 7:4-8) Only “those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life,” the 144,000, will finally enter into New Jerusalem (i.e. heaven). —Revelation 13:8; Daniel 12:3.

    And your second class of being “thrown into the pool of fire” does not exist - The “lake of fire” is also a symbolic term for everlasting destruction. Just examine the scripture of Revelation 20:14 prior to “your” Revelation 20:15. It says: “And death and Ha´des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.” Note that hell or Hades is eternally destroyed. For hell, says Revelation 20:14, must be hurled into the “lake of fire.” If hell is the lake of fire, as many say, how can it be cast into itself?
     
  16. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Nowhere in the entire chapter of Psalms 37 can there be found a context in which it is referring to the promised land of Israel – this had already factually been fulfilled about 500 years before. In fact, Psalms 37 refers to the earth on several occasions - which therefore establishes the context of what it is referring to. Here are a few verses from Psalms 37 alone:



    Psalms 37:9: “For evildoers themselves will be cut off, But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth.”



    Psalms 37:29: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.”



    Psalms 37:34: “Hope in Jehovah and keep his way, And he will exalt you to take possession of the earth. When the wicked ones are cut off, you will see [it].”



    So by looking at the above verses, what context would you call this?







    This is chop and change post where you get “a little bit of that” and “a little bit of this” from different parts of the Bible that represent different context’s, put them together, and then call it a doctrine. It is true that Revelation refers to a “heavenly Jerusalem” but that not cannot be said the same for Hebrews 11. When Hebrew 11:16 says, “one belonging to heaven”, it does not mean – if you look at the context of the entire chapter – that all good people in mankind will go to heaven. Rather, it was actually referring to Abraham and Sarah in the sense that because they were faithful individuals, and they belonged to God – therefore, belonging to heaven.







    The Watchtower is just a publication, is not an organization, and “maintains” nothing. It is the Bible that we base and “maintain” out teachings. I also love the way they quoted us by taking out a chunk of what we said with the “…” in the middle of the “quote”. However, the Bible itself supports the case of only the people during his time and after – not before, will go to heaven. Why is this? Well Pentecost 33 C.E. onward involved more than presenting themselves to God as members of a dedicated nation. It symbolized their dedication to Jehovah God in a new relationship with him through Jesus Christ. This concept is supported by Acts 2:2-4 and many other scriptures also.



    [QOUTE]Only the 144,000 elite that all lived after the death of Christ will supposedly go to heaven. Matthew 8:11-12 provides severe difficulties for this idea, since Jesus proclaims, "many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens; whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be." No verse could be clearer in declaring that the patriarchs are in heaven. The following verses all demonstrate that Christians go to heaven, and do not remain on earth: 2 Corinthians 5:1; Hebrews 3:1; Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 1:4-5; 1 Peter 1:4. [/QUOTE]



    On the contrary, Matthew 8:11-12 means otherwise. It is evident that in Matthew 8:11 Jesus referred to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob figuratively. On the occasion when Abraham offered up his son Isaac, Abraham represented Jehovah God and Isaac represented God’s only-begotten Son Jesus Christ, who was offered up in sacrifice. Accordingly Jacob represented the spiritual Christian congregation, the “kingdom of the heavens” class; for, just as the congregation gets life through Jesus Christ, so Jacob got life from Abraham through Isaac. From this standpoint Abraham, Isaac and Jacob mentioned together in Jesus’ illustration would picture the great theocratic government, in which Jehovah is the Great Theocrat, Jesus Christ is his anointed representative King, and the faithful, victorious Christian congregation of 144,000 members is the body of Christ’s joint heirs in the Kingdom.

    When the Christian congregation was founded on the day of Pentecost, its spirit-anointed members were made Christ’s joint heirs and were put in line for a place in the heavenly kingdom, to recline there at the spiritual table with the Greater Abraham and the Greater Isaac. The natural or fleshly Jews of the nation of Israel claimed to be the “sons of the kingdom” or the prospective members of God’s kingdom. From the day of Pentecost forward they saw the beginning and the gradual development of this theocratic arrangement, but because of their lack of faith in Christ they were not in it. Hence, as Jesus said (Matt. 8:12): “The sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.”

    For this reason it became necessary that many Gentiles (non-Jews), like the Roman centurion whose faith brought a miraculous cure by Jesus, should come “from eastern parts and western parts,” from all around the earth, to become dedicated, baptized Christians. Thus they could help make up the full number of the Kingdom class. For faithfulness to the death these converted Gentiles are resurrected to heavenly life to recline at the heavenly table, as it were, with Jehovah God and Jesus Christ “in the kingdom of the heavens.”

    When understood this way, Matthew 8:11 agrees with Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:11: “Among those born of women there has not been raised up a greater than John the Baptist; but a person that is a lesser one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.” Since Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not greater than John, they will not be literally in the kingdom of the heavens. Jesus used them only as an illustration of those who will actually be in it.



    After going through your post, you have not explained what your version of the 144,000 actually represents…so please tell me.



    Out,



    WitnessofJah ;)
     
  17. precept

    precept Member

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    If you knowingly spoke with a "saved in God's kingdom individual", one of 144,000 persons; then you must also know that this saved person must have had also passed through "great tribulation"[Revelation 7:14. So when next you have discourse with such a "saved individual", you may want to query him/her re what was the nature of the "Great Tribulation" through which him/her passed.


    precept
     
  18. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Where did you hear this?! Any credible sources? You have to remember that there are atheists out there who will use any means possible to try and discredit the Bible to render it worthless, but that will never happen. :) The book of Revelation is one of the most prophetically advanced books in the Bible with some of the deepest and symbolic meanings in it's passages...and it was written by a man who was "high"? Remember 2 Timothy 3:16 which says that "all scripture is inspired of God". Therefore, what you see on the pages of Revelation is from God irregardless of John's state of mind - but was transmitted via the Apostle John only.






    You could say that about any book of the Bible - how do we know that it is inspired of God? The criteria of a book inspired by God (including Revelation) are:
    • True prophecies
    • Historic soundness (times, dates, years)
    • Geographic accuracy (places)
    • Candor (honest - tells the good, bad, and the ugly)
    • Internal harmony (no contradictions)
    • Practical (achieveable and good advice for everyday lives)
    • Claim (who wrote it and who they give credit to)
    • Preservation (that the word has been preserved over history)
    • Archaelogical (evidence)
    Here is the skeletal frame of a book that is inspired of god - And the Bible meets all of them.

    This in no ranking system at all! The 144,000 have their own reward - which is going to heaven. But ones of the earthly class also have their own wonderful reward - of being in a beautiful paradise earth with everlasting life with no death, disease, violence, and a place where we can worship God and rejoice together! After all, why did Jehovah God create this perfect earth in the first place? Because he intentionally wanted us to inhabit it - like he did for Adam and Eve before they sinned. Some descriptions of what the earthly paradise will be like from the Bible:

    Revelation 21:3 and 4: "With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away."

    Psalms 37:10-11: "And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."
     
  19. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Revelation 7:14 is not referring to the 144,000 alone - and never says it does. If you look at the surrounding verses, a clear context is created in which we actually understand whom it refers to when it says “great tribulation”. Revelation 7:9-14:


    “9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

    11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: “Amen! The blessing and the glory and the wisdom and the thanksgiving and the honor and the power and the strength [be] to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

    13 And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”


    Therefore, by looking at verse 9, it clearly refers to the “great crowd” – which refers to the earthly class of mankind. These survivors, called the “great crowd,” are identified by certain decisive actions that they take. According to Revelation 7:14, one of the 24 elders in heaven told John: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” Yes, the great crowd hails Jehovah as the source of their salvation. They exercise faith in Jesus’ shed blood and have a righteous standing before their Creator and his appointed King, Jesus Christ. How do we know that the Great tribulation refers to the “Great Crowd” also? Matthew 24:21-22 says:


    “For then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.”


    So therefore, the great tribulation has not happened yet – and is actually a pre-Armageddon state before God destroys the wickedness of the planet. Matthew 24:29-30 continues:


    “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

    Therefore, nobody has gone throught the great tribulation yet - it is a prophecy which is still yet to be fulfilled and involves the very last days of this system of the things and the destruction of the wicked things within it.
     
  20. precept

    precept Member

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    Read your own quote! If, as you say, "Revelation 7:14 is not referring to the 144,000 alone" - "and never says it does".

    Then you must also be saying that indeed the 8000 or more; some dead, some alive of your group, members you proclaim as belonging to the 144, 000 saved saints; and since they also would have gone through the great tribulation with the "great crowd which no man could number" as your direct quote intimates, then it must also stand to reason that if they are unable to verify that indeed they have "passed through great tribulation"; and since such a significant experience they would have spontaneously alluded to; and since to date none of your "number" has so confessed; then it must also stand to reason that None Of Your Number Is So Numbered among the 144,000 Saved Saints.


    precept
     
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