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144,000?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Green Gaia, Nov 18, 2004.

  1. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    John Calvin said that God will save only so many souls, 144,000, and that nobody knows who they are but God and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

    Where on earth did he get this idea?
     
  2. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    It's this kinda stuff that really makes you think about religion critically. Where does the BS end and the truth begin?
     
  3. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Well, I've gathered that it has something to do with something said in Revelation, but I still don't see the connection...
     
  4. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    Maize, I have heard that 144k is 12k from each of the 12 tribes.

    I found this on which says the same thing:
    http://www.nisbett.com/library/ir-who_are_the_144000.html

    Revelations 21: 12 says this:

    "It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel."
    (source biblegateway.com)

    I know the Jwitness have the 144000 theory but I didn't know John Calvin prescribed to it also.
     
  5. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    It's unfortunate that God is prepared to save only 144,000 souls. Many more than 144,000 people voted for Bush. The clear implication is that hell will be crowded with people who voted for Bush but were not among the 144,000 that God saves. As someone who is probably going to hell, I am personally alarmed that so many Republicans will be there with me. Having had to listen to Rush Limbaugh in this life, I feel deeply that it is unfair I should have to listen to him in the next life. Can anything be done about this injustice?
     
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  6. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    It is a belief among Jehovah's Witnesses as well. Apparently from what I understood there are only 144,000 chosen humans among their organization that are going to ascend into heaven to reside with Jehovah, the rest of the meek (humans) will inherit eternity on earth in paradise which is what Jehovah had originally intended for the earth. As this number of 144,000 decreases among their ranks and are secured in heaven the Witnesses believe that the end is drawing near. For more precise information on this doctrine I suggest you inquire WitnessOfJah about this.
    I learned this belief in sort of an embarrassing way. A friend of mine was Jehovah Witness and one of the meetings that he encouraged me to attend was an annual meeting that they hold in March where they recognize the 144,000 or what is left of this number (it seems that they hold a sort of census every year at this meeting). Well as part of the service they pass around a plate of leavened bread and a glass of wine and you are to pass it from member to member and only anointed members of the 144,000 or supposed to partake of it, absolutely no one else. If none of the anointed members are in that particular congregation then you just pass it from member to member and no one partakes. So when the plate of leavened bread was handed to me I did not realize what this ritual was intended for, so I thought-okay, refreshments and I partook. Everyone gasped in shock and needless to say I was not invited back again next year. My friend tried to explain it was only for the anointed but in my defense I had to ask him why they handed it to me in the first place.
     
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  7. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    I would have loved to have been there!!

    I asked my Witness buddy who comes by every couple weeks how one gets "annointed" but he isn`t telling.
    I suspect it has something to do with converting non-beleivers..I dunno, but that would explain their zeal.
     
  8. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    Linwood I have trouble getting them to talk too. If they feel you won't convert its hard to get info out of them in person.
     
  9. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    The way that it was explained to me from one witness is that they "just know". An example was accompanied with this explanation to the effect "that if you are a male you know that you are a male" but even in this day and age this point is debatable. How does someone "feel" masculine or feminine?
     
  10. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    WitnessOfJah has that thread going on about Jehovah's Witnesses and has been very accomodating, it would be a shame if we did not use the time that this person is sharing with us for questioning about their beliefs and doctrines.
     
  11. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    I think they believe that only 144,000 get straight into heaven. But the reason for them to evangelize and promote the religion is so that those who are not in the 144,000 will get in at the end of the world on judgement day. I think it is all rubbish.
     
  12. precept

    precept Member

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    The word of the Lord created the wind and rain. "...He spake and it was done; He commanded and it stood fast". Psalm 33:9
     
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  13. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    "The word of the Lord created the wind and rain. "...He spake and it was done; He commanded and it stood fast". Psalm 33:9"

    Words precept, words. My bible does not include words. Words are finite, and can be destroyed. God is beyond words, concepts, and ideas. God is therefore seen more in nature, than in a book.
     
  14. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    And you know this how, precisely?
     
  15. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    It is my opinion of course. As is everything I say.
     
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  16. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Here is the 144,000, 12k from the 12 tribes, sometimes called the remnant of Israel.
    Clearly it is people of Israel.

    Re.7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
    4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

    But to follow up is this.
    Re 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands

    A Multitude NO MAN Can Number!!!
    144,000 plus! But brilliant men can justify their every inconsistancey! (Living Bible)
     
  17. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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    jOHN 1:1 jESUS IS THE WORD, END OF STORY , MAN'S WORDS WILL FALL TO THE GROUND, HIS WILL STAND FOREVER

    IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE HIS WORDS, ETERNAL LIFE IS NOT YOURS
     
  18. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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    SORRY FOR THE CAPITAL LETTERS i FORGOT THE POLICY, NO OFFENSE INTENDED
     
  19. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    I don't know where exactly John Calvin got the whole predestination thing from, but I can kind of see how a person with Christian beliefs could come to that conclusion. If you believe that God is all-knowing, then it logically follows that God would probably know what you will do during your life way before you or your parents are ever born. Even if you have free will, he still might know what you are going to do simply because he knows you so well. So... knowing what actions (good or evil) you will do, and knowing whether or not you will repent or be baptized or whatever you have to do to be saved, he would therefore know whether or not you are going to be worthy of Heaven. Etc etc etc...
     
  20. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Either that's barbaric of God, or just very quaint of him -- I can't figure out which.
     
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