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144,000?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Green Gaia, Nov 18, 2004.

  1. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. That's all I needed.
    Thanks,
    Scott
     
  2. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Did you even read my previous post? The "great tribulation" is not something that according to you, the 144,000 have to "pass through to be able to become a member of the heavenly class" - for some reason or another - none which you specified.

    If you had read the scriptures I posted previously about the conditions of the "Great tribulation", it is something that will affect every person on this planet in the run-up to Armaggedon - and only the righteous ones - both in the heavenly and earthly class will pass through it. The "Great Tribulation" is a prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled and is not a criteria for deciding who is part of the 144,000 and who is'nt. On the flip side of the coin, does the "Great Crowd" (us - the earthly class) have to realize that we are actually part of the "great crowd" by going through the great tribulation first? I don't think so - we know.

    As far as the 8000 remaining, they know by divine intervention what their future holds in store for them - they don't need to pass the great tribulation in order to realize that - and I'm not sure where you got that concept from. Answer me these questions:

    1) What is your definition of the "Great Tribulation"?
    2) What is your Biblical backing behind your concept of the "144,000 having to pass through the great tribulation first" in order to be a member of it?
     
  3. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    I don’t think this is point of concern. Many Atheists finished THE BIBLE with Genesis.



    I will share my sources to the best of my recollection.

    “If I REMEMBER CORRECTLY the apostle John was a prisoner on Patmos around 96 C.E. where Relevations was written.”

    This information was received from a wonderful resource entitled ALL SCRIPTURE IS INSPIRED OF GOD AND BENEFICIAL.



    The second part-

    “I also heard that he was heavily medicated during his imprisonment.”

    I cannot REMEMBER where I heard this or accredit it to a source but I can REMEMBER that the explanation went on to inform me that John was legitimately sick during the time of his imprisonment and required the medication to recover.

    I think they prefer the term “prophetically challenged”.



    The only thing that the above information informs me of is that every written book ever bound to publication is inspired by GOD which is what I believe. If you require further understanding I can supply examples from my own library of books that fit this outline. I can even bind them into one book for you if it will help you appreciate their value.

    The evidence of GOD's inspiration connected to THE BIBLE or any other book cannot BE factually PROVEN. Faith cannot BE inserted as PROOF or TRUST because GOD does not operate on faith and it is something that he would not inquire or have us aspire to.

     
  4. precept

    precept Member

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    "Witness...."! let's read Revelation 14:4. and let us postulate according to you, that your 8000 or so selected "firstfruits" need not pass through "the great tribulation".

    The fact that Revelation 14:4 proclaim all who constitute the 144,000 to be "virgins" and "males"[they have not defiled themselves with women] will exclude all females and or all males of your group of 8000, who were ever involved in sex of any kind.

    If therefore any of your group of males was ever involved sexually in any fashion; exclusion from the 144,000 must be automatic; which makes any of your group who so had the feeling that he/she was so numbered among the 144,000, as lying about such membership, if in fact they were ever experienced at he act of sex.

    If on the other hand, the term "virgin" is taken symbolically; and since any reference to women as in "virgin" is specifically related to the "True Church of Christ" as in the pure Church as a chaste virgin--2 Corinthians 11:2 and as in prophetic parlance; then you must rule out even "you", yourself from among the saints; and as also because only "virgins" are numbered as members of the True Christ of Christ. And since according to this passage, the 144,000 are "virgins" and hence the true church of Christ, then you youself must not belong to the true Church of Christ if you deny that you also are a "virgin"; which if you admit to; would make you according to Revelation 14:4, also a member of the 144,000; thus making the count 8001, on your "spreadsheet". That is;if I may say so myself.

    But then again that depends on whether you belong to the pure church as against belonging to the false system of worship- the harlot or the impure church!


    precept

     
  5. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    The Apostles of Jesus Christ were one of the first of the 144,000, and they had wives and families of their own – which straight away renders your argument obsolete of only “literal virgins” being accepted into the 144,000. The term “virgins” is symbolic to something else.


    In Revelation 14:1-4, the 144,000 described as standing with the Lamb on Mount Zion are said to have been “bought from the earth. These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins.” These are shown as having a more intimate relationship with the Lamb than any others do, being the only ones to master the “new song.” (Re 14:1-4) This would indicate that they make up the “bride” of the Lamb. (Re 21:9) They are spiritual persons, as revealed by the fact that they stand on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb. Therefore their ‘not defiling themselves with women’ and their being “virgins” would not mean that none of these 144,000 persons had ever been married, for the Scriptures do not forbid persons on earth who are to be joint heirs with Christ to marry. (1Ti 3:2; 4:1, 3) Neither would it imply that all the 144,000 were men, for “there is neither male nor female”as far as the spiritual relationship of Christ’s joint heirs is concerned. (Galatians 3:28) The “women” therefore must be symbolic women, doubtless religious organizations such as Babylon the Great and her ‘daughters,’ false religious organizations, the joining of and participation in which would prevent one from being spotless. (Re 17:5) This symbolic description harmonizes with the requirement in the Law that the high priest of Israel take only a virgin for his wife, for Jesus Christ is Jehovah’s great High Priest.—Le 21:10, 14; 2Co 11:2; Heb 7:26.


    Precept, the problem with you argument is that when the scripture is symbolic, you take it literally, and when it is literal, you take it symbolically, which creates one big complicated confusion to which nobody understands.
     
  6. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    You are correct when you say that the Apostle John was on the island of Patmos when he put pen to paper (with God's inspiration) in 96 C.E to write Revelation. In 96 C.E., John would have been in his late 90's, and was close to death, and very possibly sick. In fact, he died soon after writing these books. However, the Bible itself makes no mention of medications used, and because God wanted John to transmit his words, nothing would have stopped him no matter of John's condition.





    How many books can still be in extraordinary harmony within itself over a writing period of 1600 years and with Bible writers who had never met eachother but still, the message remains the same? How many books can foretell prophecies hundreds of years in advance in amazing detail, not your typical "vague" prohecies? How many books can prove themselves right via historical and archaeological evidence? How many books can tell us the hope of the future God has in store for us?

    Name me ONE book that meet's the above examples.


    If you are looking for DNA evidence of Jesus existence or fragments of the tablets Moses held or the remains of the original tree from the garden of Eden - you won't find it - and never will. On the other hand, you can't prove that God does'nt exist either - no scientific experiment can -therefore, it is all about having full faith. Ask yourself this question: If God needs to open the skies before you in front of your very eyes before you have faith, how really stong is your faith? Hebrews 10:39 says: "Now we are not the sort that shrink back to destruction, but the sort that have faith to the preserving alive of the soul."
     
  7. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    I cannot possibly imagine how far medicine could have progressed during that era or even if it was very effective but I may have to agree with you it is not really a necessary point to put in THE BIBLE.

    Wait, there are more examples that I think you may have forgotten.

    How many books can inspire argument, distrust in one another, misplaced passion and obsession, misunderstanding, confusion to culminate in a division of brotherhood, hatred, segregation that eventually leads to murder, war and destruction.How many books can distract or divert your attention to the fact that anyone can have a personal REALationship with GOD and that GOD is available and accessible to anyone who desires to K(NOW) Him.



    You’re absolutely right WItnessOfJah I cannot think of ONE book that meets those above examples. I can think of 66.

    I UNDERSTAND your respect for THE BIBLE but I am not as impressed with literature as some people are. I mean I read books, I enjoy the written word, I learn from books, essentially I use books, I do not live by them or let them use me.



    I have no doubts or concerns about the existence of GOD



    I really do not require anything as spectacular as your example illustrates. A simple “hello” from me or GOD is enough to suffice.



    My faith is non-existent.

    You cannot exercise or strengthen faith; Faith by its very NATURE can only weaken you in the pursuit of TRUTH.


     
  8. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    with the proper philosophers behind the charge?almost any book.
     
  9. precept

    precept Member

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    If the disciples and your group of 8000, according to you, make up the bride of the Lamb....who then is this bride described as the "New Jerusalem" in Revelation 21:2 and revelation 2:9?

    Is the new Jerusalem and the 144,000 one and the same? The bride of the Lamb?


    precept
     
  10. precept

    precept Member

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    Which leads me to my next question. How do you know when any reference to the 144,000 is to be taken literally or when it is to be taken symbolically?

    You, for example, selectively took the number 144,000 of the saved of Israel as:

    1/ Literal.

    2/But the saved 144,000 persons you selectively try to make them symbolic and belonging to your group. Should they not be Literal Jews; given you make the number 144,000 a literal number? Are not the twelve tribes, tribes of literal Jews; so why shouldn't the number be literal as well?

    If the number is literal should not the persons to whom the number refer be literal as well? If the Jews or the saved persons are not to be taken literal as in their being literal Jews, despite the clear wording of the scripture that they were taken from each of the twelve tribes of literal Israel.--then neither should the number "144,000"....This leaves your 8000 persons on the "outside looking in", unless that is; your 8000 were literal Jews.

    And then again if you make the number symbolic and the people symbolic your 8000 are not any better off; because the act of your doing a literal head count of "8000" would be usurpation of the perogative of the One who gave the symbolic number of 144,000. Making your selection the same as when "Nadab and Abihu " selected themselves as God's representatives to Israelites.


    precept
     
  11. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    **Sorry if I am not posting at the moment but my schedule is extremely hectic right now. I will try to post when I get the chance and will definitely backtrack on the views/questions you have asked.** :)
     
  12. Aniset@sbcglobal.net

    [email protected] New Member

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    Come on Guys, It is not hare to get a Witiness to talk to you. However we don't want to argue with you. If it seems that you are not sincere about talking with us then no we won't keep comming back just to fuss with you.

    And the celebration Carrdero is talking about is the Memoral of Christ death which is only held once a year. Christ died for us all and all are always invited. I am sure that is was a mistake that you were not envited the next year. although we are witiness we still make mistakes. I am sure your friend did not mean to over look you. Everyone is always invited to all of our meetings. We have an open invitation for 5 meetings a week. I would have also been helpful for your friend to explaine how the meeting goes before you get there.
     
  13. Aniset@sbcglobal.net

    [email protected] New Member

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    It's only rubish if you don't understand.
     
  14. Aniset@sbcglobal.net

    [email protected] New Member

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    Come on Guys, It is not hard to get a Witiness to talk to you. However we don't want to argue with you. If it seems that you are not sincere about talking with us then no we won't keep comming back just to fuss with you.

    And the celebration Carrdero is talking about is the Memoral of Christ death which is only held once a year. Christ died for us all and all are always invited. I am sure that is was a mistake that you were not envited the next year. although we are witiness we still make mistakes. I am sure your friend did not mean to over look you. Everyone is always invited to all of our meetings. We have an open invitation for 5 meetings a week. I would have also been helpful for your friend to explaine how the meeting goes before you get there.
     
  15. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    Actually I should point out that it was my friend who did not invite me back. There was another time, years later, around the same time that this meeting was held some Jehovah’s Witnesses who came to my door did invite me to come to the same meeting. I do not want anyone to conclude that Jehovah’s Witnesses are anti-social through any misunderstandings of my own.
     
  16. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Let me give you an illustration: A person uses a kitchen knife to stab and kill someone. Who's fault was it? Was it the knife's fault or the person's? Likewise - when people go to war and kill or do extremely immoral acts in the name of the Bible, people unfortunately, and unfairly, blame it on the Bible. Why is that? If people cared to look inside the pages of the Bible, they would realize that in actual fact, it promotes a peaceful and secure future where people will live in harmony and will suffer no more.



    The problem is the exact opposite. It's because people don't follow the Bible that the world is in a mess today. 2 Timothy 3:16:

    "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."

    The Bible by no means forces or uses you, since it is your God given right to have free will. However, since God created us and knows everything there is to know about humans, would'nt it be logical to apply his manual that he handed down to us to improve our lives for the better?



    Hebrews 11:1 states: "Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld."

    Hebrews 11:3: "By faith we perceive that the systems of things were put in order by God’s word, so that what is beheld has come to be out of things that do not appear."

    But if you finally found that truth, would it not have been worth the effort? Of course it would. "A runner may struggle with pain during a race and at times, feel like giving up, but when he finally crosses the finish line, all that suffering and hardship would have been worth it in the achievement of the reward."
     
  17. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Christ himself addresses the congregation at Revelation 3:12, promising the faithful conqueror that he would have written upon him "the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine." A wife takes her husband’s name. Therefore, those seen standing with the Lamb upon Mount Zion, numbering 144,000, having the Lamb’s name and that of his Father written in their foreheads, are evidently the same group, the bride. Revelation 14:1 confirms this: "....and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads."

    Therefore, the "Bride" of Christ is symbolic, and is referring to the 144,000.

    Is the "Bride" and "New Jerusalem" one and the same? Revelation 21:2 says: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." This clearly refers to the relationship between the 144,000 and Jesus Christ, the lamb.

    "New Jerusalem" is a symbolic city and represents a spiritual organization. It symbolizes a clean, undefiled, holy Christian congregation. It is composed entirely of spiritual Israelites, Jews inwardly, circumcised in their hearts. Therefore, the "New Jerusalem" and the "Bride" represent the same thing - the 144,000.



     
  18. WitnessofJah

    WitnessofJah Member

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    Jesus Christ in heaven is the Mediator between God and the spiritual Israelites, while these are still in the flesh as men and women. Even within the membership limits of this small "holy nation" the mediatorship of Jesus Christ has expanded, for God has followed a certain order in admitting classes of persons into the new covenant. Thus, for about a year from Pentecost of 33 C.E., Jesus was the Mediator of only those spiritual Israelites who had been fleshly Jews or circumcised Jewish proselytes. About 3,000 of these were added to spiritual Israel on that day of Pentecost, 33 C.E. Acts 2:10 confirms the different nationalites involved in this "spiritual Israel": "and Phryg´i·a and Pam·phyl´i·a, Egypt and the parts of Lib´y·a, which is toward Cy·re´ne, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes." Then, likely in the following year (34 C.E.) as a side effect of the persecution by Saul of Tarsus, the "good news" about the Christ was preached in Samaria and the holy spirit ‘fell upon’ the baptized believers there. (Acts 8:15-17) From then on the mediatorship of Jesus was widened out to benefit spiritual Israelites who had been men and women of Samaria, Samaritans - which were non-Jews.

    Therefore, as "spiritual Israelites" the context can be determined as to whom this refers to - and it does not refer to literal Israelites - but refers to the international people who want to follow God and do his will and in which God has chosen to shepherd them - like the former literal Israel. It is impossible that it refers to nation of Israel literally, since these 144,000, symbolically speaking, are to be Jesus' heavenly bride. The literal Jews killed Jesus Christ, don't believe he is the son of God (to this day), and don't believe in the New Testament - so draw your own conclusion, does that scripture refer to the literal or "Spriritual Israelites"?
     
  19. precept

    precept Member

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    Making preposterous claims re what you try to make the scriptures say; does not make it so! The scriptures are not of "private interpretation" 2 Peter 1:20
    Unless you can support your presumptions with the text of scripture, you ought not to state as fact the fictious thinking of an over active mind.

    Jesus is not the Mediator of as you put it...a group called "spiritual Israelites".
    The bible clearly teaches that "Jesus is the Mediator between God and men". 1 Timothy 2:5 ...the Mediator between God and "all men"---all of humanity!

    That your group would think to redefine Jesus' role in His stated mission to reconcile all of humanity to Himself" 2 Corinthians 5:19 is directly usurping the perogative of God.


    precept
     
  20. precept

    precept Member

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    Your above exclusion of Jews from your "Spiritual Israelites" congregation; is very short-sighted. Your group seem to have forgotten that though the Jewish leadership inspired the killing of Jesus; yet this was not the act of the nation of the Jews as a whole.

    Go back to the scriptures for the true facts! Jesus' twelve disciples were Jews. Did they kill Christ?

    Peter won more than six thousands of Jews to Christianity....in just one sermon. All the thousands of Jews who became Christians became the reason for the origination of the name "Christian". A name originated to differentiate the followers of Christ, who were all Jewish and who, though still practicing Judaism yet embraced the teaching of Christ.

    The early church was mainly Jews - Christian Jews. The Gentiles, all told, numbered about fifteen humdred, and made up of less than one percent of the early Christian church. Not until the Romans began to associate all Jews with rebelling against Roman occupation; and thus treating all Jews as rebellious; and which culminated in 130 AD with the emperor Hadrian expelling all Jews from Jerusalem; and replacing the Jerusalem Christian church with the Gentile leadership; did the Gentile Christian church exist in any prominence.

    This contrived transplantation of Gentile Christians by a Pagan emperor was the beginning of the domination that Gentile Chrisitanity enjoyed over true Christianity; and a domination they enjoy to this day.

    No! "Witness..." Jesus is not Mediator of any special group. Jesus depended on Jews to spread the good news of the gospel. Jesus' early church was almost one hundred percent Jewish... And whereas the Jewish leadership inspired the killing of Jesus; yet it was your sins and mine that actually killed the Master, making you and I as guilty as the Jewixh leadership.

    Your theology makes a mockery of the gospel of salvation that teaches that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"....that teaches that "Jesus died for the sins of the world" .....that teaches that "there is neither Jew nor Greek....that we are all one in Christ Jesus"......as in no special group of so called "spiritual Israelites". ..."We are all ONE in Christ Jesus" Galatians 3:28


    precept
     
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