If God exists why does He allow suffering?

joe1776 said:

That kind of logic requires a ridiculous definition of 'omnipotent." I'm not interested in semantic arguments,

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Why do you say that?

Every case of suffering that's relieved by a helping hand (or pharmaceutical pain relief) is suffering that was entirely possible to address... and that God failed to address.

Life as a learning process, with suffering as its challenge, makes sense without playing with words and their definition. That's good enough for me.

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So relieving a person's suffering denies them the full benefit of their "learning process?"

Take a look at Maslow's heirarchy of needs sometime. Our best opportunities happen when our basic needs are met, and we can't effectively work on self-actualization while we're lacking - suffering - in more foundational areas of our lives.

SalixIncendium said:

In my understanding, suffering is a result of ignorance.

• Ignorance of what "God" is and what "God" does.
• Ignorance of one's own true nature and the nature of the transactional reality they experience.

That said, as I see it, there is a practical use in suffering. In my experience, it helps eliminate ignorance through empathy. If one never suffers, one never has a true understanding of what another that suffers is experiencing.

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I like how you have expressed this...suffering allows others to learn without having to undergo that suffering. To go even further, it allows us to embody that suffering of another in ourselves and to act with empathy and to accept self-limitations in order to form a social system that promotes greater morality and the freedom to act within that morality without fear of evil.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Why do you say that?

Every case of suffering that's relieved by a helping hand (or pharmaceutical pain relief) is suffering that was entirely possible to address... and that God failed to address.

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The idea is for us to learn to ease or prevent suffering.

So relieving a person's suffering denies them the full benefit of their "learning process?"

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No, easing or preventing suffering is what our species is learning.

Take a look at Maslow's heirarchy of needs sometime. Our best opportunities happen when our basic needs are met, and we can't effectively work on self-actualization while we're lacking - suffering - in more foundational areas of our lives.

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So, logically, our first order of business should be to supply the global community with its basic needs. In so doing, we will prevent a lot of suffering.

adrian009 said:

I was working amidst a rural community and was invited to dinner with one of my workmates and her husband. My colleague has just been diagnosed with cancer for the second time in her life. Its a tough time for her but she’s dealing with it really well. She had grown up Christian but in her twenties several people she knew died in short succession. This led her to conclude there was no God. “Why would God allow such suffering?” She feels as if she’s coping just fine now without believing in God and she certainly appears to be.

She asked me as a declared theist “If there is a God, why would He allow such suffering?” As an invited guest of a colleague with cancer I felt it best to empathise with her perspective and listen without offering a theistic view.

The belief that suffering rules out the existence of God is something I’ve heard from atheists and agnostics before. Although I’ve suffered in life from time to time, its never led me to question God’s existence. In fact I’ve just had a really tough month or so for which I’m grateful. Admittedly I’m not wrestling with a cancer diagnosis or the loss of a loved one.

So I’m curious as to how others view suffering and whether it affects their beliefs about God positively or negatively. If a Creator God exists why didn’t He do a better job of designing the universe? If we suffer, shouldn’t we see it as an opportunity to develop and attain new insights and strength?

I’ve put this in the general debates section to allow freedom of expression. I’m wanting to better understand why this is such a critical issue for so many people rather than debate. Thanks in advance for those who drop by to offer their sincere thoughts about how suffering affects their faith.

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Rather than answer your question I would ask what should God do to end suffering?

Yahcubs777 said:

Wonderful. However, its not exactly that way for the Pharisees. Rather, that they were not among the Sons that GOD was sending into the wombs of their biological mothers. GOD is the giver of children. That doesn't mean HE moulds the body the womb no, it means that HE sends the Spirit Being of the person, programmed in the soul, and immerses or baptizes them into their physical body forming in the womb. As the Word of GOD came to Jeremiah: Before you were formed in the belly, I knew thee and sanctified thee as a Prophet to the nations.
Isaiah says: child is born a son is given.

So the Pharisees were claiming that they were of Abrahams seed as they came from one of the 12 tribes of Israel by biological birth, but GOD was saying, ye are not Abrahams Seed because I did not send you into this earth. For if you were Abrahams Seed, you would do as Abraham did. Just as HE revealed there are wheats and tares. A wheat is a child of the kingdom. A tare is a child of the abyss. So HE was telling them they are tares.

I am from Above, ye are from beneath.

And no man has ascended into heaven except he that descended from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven.

If truly GOD does not send the children into this earth, then how can any man enter into heaven even after resurrection? That proves that GOD gives children.

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I know some of the things you say sound radical, but you just might be right.

I have wondered if God has sent us specifically into the wombs of specific mothers, into specific families.

I know that I'm thankful for the Mother that I was born to.

I felt sorry for the baby I saw with it's mother in the Tel Aviv pride video.

May all be blessed with a mother like mine.

My mother, with love so good and true
Just like an angel, was sent down from the blue
Could I but carry the burdens away
For my mother today

Through words of anger, still she'll befriend
Instead of envy, she'll give, give again
When day is ended, a soft voice you'll hear
"Dear God, forgive us" is my mother's prayer

My mother, as pure as precious gold
Fresh in my memory, she'll never grow old
Down at the crossroads to show me the way
Is my mother each day

When she looks back at the life that I've lived
If I have faltered, she always forgives
I ask in silence of One Most Divine
May all be blessed with a mother like mine


Peaceful Sabbath.

@adrian009 - another aspect to the problem of suffering: it's never a matter of a god being considered in isolation; the god or gods are generally a component of a belief system that has rules and principles for its adherents to live by. Many of these belief systems hold that adherents have a duty to help others who are suffering or in need.

This creates its own layer of problems, because it's very tricky to come up with a justification for why it's okay for God to be indifferent to suffering that doesn't also imply that people should be indifferent to suffering.

Greg Levenski said:

We suffer because of our past evil karmas (as per Hinduism).
That past karma may have been performed in one's previous life or in this current life.

Even in the Bible it is mentioned, you reap what you sow.
Galatians 6:8 - The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; (and) the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.



The Personal God or Ishwara, actually intervenes, when his children cry out to the Lord with all their heart. For example, everytime the little prince Prahlada prayed to the Lord, the Lord came to his rescue.

Also, in the Hindu scripture Bhagavad Gita, the Lord Himself says, that he descends on this earthly plane when righteousness diminishes.
He descends to kill the wicked and restore righteousness.
Bhagavad Gita 4.8 : To protect the righteous, to annihilate the wicked, and to reestablish the principles of dharma I appear on this earth, age after age.

So yes, he does intervenes.

===========================



The answer to all those questions is also given in the hindu scripture,
Bhagavad Gita, Ch.14, verse 15, where the Lord says -

When one dies in the mode of passion, he takes birth among those engaged in desire ridden activities; and when he dies in the mode of ignorance, he takes birth in the wombs of deluded beings. (Could be the womb of animals or the wombs of sub-humans like murderers, rapists etc.)

Hope i helped.

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So we suffer because in our past life we were doing bad things? Is that the Hinduism view?

If God exists why does He allow suffering?

The answer, of course, is that we don't know. We don't even know that God exists, let alone in what manner God might exist in relation to our suffering. In fact, the only reason we ask such a question is because we have chosen to imagine that God exists is such a way that it could be both aware of our suffering and able to alleviate it if it chose to do so. And this is a lot of speculation on our part, based on very little logical evidence.

God is a possibility that cannot be clearly articulated or verified. Leaving us free, if we want, to articulate (imagine) God to be whatever we'd like. And since we do not like to suffer, we like to imagine that God would be able to mitigate that suffering for us. And so we do. But then we cannot understand why God is not doing so. We are imagining a possibility in relation to God that does not appear to be possible. And we just don't want to accept that. So we want to know why. But we don't get to know that. As we don't get to know any number of things that are of great significance to us. Or would be if we could know them.

Suffering and death are part of the human condition. Every day we get to live free from suffering and death we should be grateful for. If for no other reason than that, sooner or later, it will be our turn to suffer, and our turn to die. Or that of those we love.

To me, the fact of our suffering and death is not a reason to presume that God does not exist, or care about us. Though, it certainly may be a reason to question the way we have chosen imagine God's nature and existence. Just because God does not do for us what we'd like does not mean that God isn't there or doesn't care.

Dave Watchman said:

I know some of the things you say sound radical, but you just might be right.

I have wondered if God has sent us specifically into the wombs of specific mothers, into specific families.

I know that I'm thankful for the Mother that I was born to.

I felt sorry for the baby I saw with it's mother in the Tel Aviv pride video.

May all be blessed with a mother like mine.

My mother, with love so good and true
Just like an angel, was sent down from the blue
Could I but carry the burdens away
For my mother today

Through words of anger, still she'll befriend
Instead of envy, she'll give, give again
When day is ended, a soft voice you'll hear
"Dear God, forgive us" is my mother's prayer

My mother, as pure as precious gold
Fresh in my memory, she'll never grow old
Down at the crossroads to show me the way
Is my mother each day

When she looks back at the life that I've lived
If I have faltered, she always forgives
I ask in silence of One Most Divine
May all be blessed with a mother like mine

Peaceful Sabbath.

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Wow! Thats so wonderful! Let me share something you. Do you know the Commandment, 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

That was not only speaking to your biological father and mother, but also to our Principal Ancestors, Father Adam and Mother Eve. That is just something i wanted to share with you.

adrian009 said:

I was working amidst a rural community and was invited to dinner with one of my workmates and her husband. My colleague has just been diagnosed with cancer for the second time in her life. Its a tough time for her but she’s dealing with it really well. She had grown up Christian but in her twenties several people she knew died in short succession. This led her to conclude there was no God. “Why would God allow such suffering?” She feels as if she’s coping just fine now without believing in God and she certainly appears to be.

She asked me as a declared theist “If there is a God, why would He allow such suffering?” As an invited guest of a colleague with cancer I felt it best to empathise with her perspective and listen without offering a theistic view.

The belief that suffering rules out the existence of God is something I’ve heard from atheists and agnostics before. Although I’ve suffered in life from time to time, its never led me to question God’s existence. In fact I’ve just had a really tough month or so for which I’m grateful. Admittedly I’m not wrestling with a cancer diagnosis or the loss of a loved one.

So I’m curious as to how others view suffering and whether it affects their beliefs about God positively or negatively. If a Creator God exists why didn’t He do a better job of designing the universe? If we suffer, shouldn’t we see it as an opportunity to develop and attain new insights and strength?

I’ve put this in the general debates section to allow freedom of expression. I’m wanting to better understand why this is such a critical issue for so many people rather than debate. Thanks in advance for those who drop by to offer their sincere thoughts about how suffering affects their faith.

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First, its wrong to destroy another person by pressing this subject. I won't do that, and I suggest you be careful. When a person doesn't want to hear it, don't say it to them. When someone's hurting there is a certain way to behave. We don't start telling knock knock jokes or eating dessert in front of them. Its a time to be sober and to empathize not to judge, not to press the wound. Its perfectly true that God lets all kinds of terrible things happen. This is difficult to corroborate with passages like the one where Jesus says that every hair on our heads is counted. Does God care or not? Sometimes its great to discuss this, but sometimes it only makes things unbearable like a surgery without anesthetic. Sometimes people aren't in a position to discuss it at all, and then I say don't.

Hebrews 4:15 making a mystical argument about atonement says "15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet he did not sin...." which implies that God in this case is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, at least from one NT author's perspective.

This is one explanation, perhaps not the only one. There are other ways of coming to the same conclusion, such as just by observing how painful our lives are. What this passage does is to show that the NT authors are not always lovey dovey and anthropomorphic about God. It also helps explain why God isn't cruel. From this passage God does not have enough in common with us to be either cruel or not -- when it comes to emotional and physical sufferings. Perhaps God is only concerned about conceptual matters, because it says the priest is the one who understands our physical side, not God. That doesn't fit into a lot of perspectives about God, but it fits this passage and the evidence very well in my opinion. Learning this at the wrong time, however, can put a healthy normal seeming person into psychosis.

So its good to know and good to learn about before one gets caught up in a particular view of God, but its not always good to press the point. So I think. Its a confusing issue for me.

Some other canonical passages possibly related:

adrian009 said:

Why do you believe life as we know it proves can be neither Omniscient or Omnipotent?

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I wonder about the omniscient 'bit' as some scriptures seem to indicate that God was not aware that some things would happen.
And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. Genesis 6:6
Seems odd to express regret for doing something if the result of one's actions was known beforehand.

They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind. Jeremiah 19:5
Here God is actually admitting that what was happening was so detestable He hadn't even thought of such a thing doesn't fit in with being omniscient.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.2 Peter 3:9
Here God is expressing Himself wishing for something and if He already knows the people who are going to repent why bother to wait?

Perhaps it depends on whether God wants or has a need to know what will happen, more of a skill than a condition-just a thought.

Sandra Jayne said:

I wonder about the omniscient 'bit' as some scriptures seem to indicate that God was not aware that some things would happen.
And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. Genesis 6:6
Seems odd to express regret for doing something if the result of one's actions was known beforehand.

They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind. Jeremiah 19:5
Here God is actually admitting that what was happening was so detestable He hadn't even thought of such a thing doesn't fit in with being omniscient.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.2 Peter 3:9
Here God is expressing Himself wishing for something and if He already knows the people who are going to repent why bother to wait?

Perhaps it depends on whether God wants or has a need to know what will happen, more of a skill than a condition-just a thought.

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Those a blasphemies. They wrote that GOD regretted that HE made man.Yet in Numbers they wrote that GOD is not a man that HE should lie, nor the Son of Man that HE should repent.

The people that did this are not the friends of Mankind. look at what they wrote in the Garden! Adam where art thou? Have you eaten from the tree I commanded you not to eat of? These are heights of blasphemies planted on purpose to turn many away from GOD, and deceive the children by not allowing them to know and understand GOD's Most Holy Character so that they cannot be deceived orvulnerable to being preyed upon.

GOD is all knowing. HE sees what happens before it happens. HE knows the end from the beginning. But the bible doesn't let you see that. They wrote HE is slow to anger, yet alot of times HE sounded angry and for things that some people would think are not really serious. But GOD is Impregnable, and cannot be moved to Anger by anyone or anything.

There is alot in the bible that is not rendered correctly.

adrian009 said:

We are all born and will all die. Most of us will experience loss, pain and suffering to some degree in this life. Many of us will experience ill health and the loss of someone we love and care deeply about. These are all facts of life.

Perhaps a better question is “Does any of this prove or disprove the existence of God?” I don’t see that it does. God could of course be invisible and completely unconcerned about any of us humans. He may not intervene or be powerless to do so. If God is a Creator God, who care about His Creation and has the power to intervene then what does suffering say about the nature of God’s design? Clearly suffering exists and its existence permeates our lives. Can a loving and caring God who intervenes with Creation stand by and let innocents suffer and die?

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Let me explain it to you this way:

Do you know why bible inerrancy is really attractive to Christians?

Because if we reach the conclusion that any given part of the bible contains falsehoods, we are left wondering what else could be false, and so faith can easily crumble.

It is the same with God's attributes. If I reach the conclusion that God is not omnibenevolent, what reason do I have to believe that God is omnipotent or omniscient? Actually, what reason do I have to believe in anything at all about God?

The suffering aspect has not influenced me much as to beliefs, since there could be many explanations even if there was a God, and hence I don't tend to fume whenever catastrophes or injustices occur and cite bad belief. That is life, and such will happen even if there is no God. Of course I can understand why many would use such an argument though but my non-belief doesn't rely on it. And I probably have as much to complain about as many others - as to my lot in life - even though it is comparatively peaceful compared to so many others. I just don't see it as a useful argument to make.

InvestigateTruth said:

So we suffer because in our past life we were doing bad things? Is that the Hinduism view?

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Yup.
Not just Hindoos but even the Buddhists believe in the law of Karma.

joe1776 said:

The idea is for us to learn to ease or prevent suffering.

No, easing or preventing suffering is what our species is learning.

So, logically, our first order of business should be to supply the global community with its basic needs. In so doing, we will prevent a lot of suffering.

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So...

It's good that God allows suffering, because suffering is good, because the existence of suffering allows us to learn how to relieve suffering, which is good because suffering is bad.

I once heard a joke that was based on a similar thought process:

- why are you banging your head against that brick wall?
- because it feels so good when I stop.

Dave Watchman said:

I don't know, it's beyond my pay grade.

Maybe the third generation ran out on Heinrich Himmel's daughter.

Maybe God knew her, and loved her, while she was still in uterus.

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With « maybes » i could explain basically anything.

ciao

- viole

Dave Watchman said:

I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

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Lol. That is a tautology that explains zero.

ciao

- viole

Dave Watchman said:

cursed.

"To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat from it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life. - Genesis 3:17

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Looks like He had had a hissy fit.lol.

i really think He should work on His temper. Anger management and such. I mean, breaking all of creation because of a human disobedience seems definitely like an over reaction.

And He does not like women.

How did He punish the serpent, the real cause of all this drama?

ciao

- viole

9-10ths_Penguin said:

So...

It's good that God allows suffering, because suffering is good, because the existence of suffering allows us to learn how to relieve suffering, which is good because suffering is bad.

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You've proved that one might take any logical statement and turn it into nonsense.

I've answered the question in the OP logically. Why don't you attempt to debate it logically?