Why Bahai

CG Didymus said:

That's great for the Quran and your Baha'i writings, but would you have submitted to the laws in the Bible that require the stoning of the people that break those laws? Or, since Baha'is believe a lot of the Bible is meant to be symbolic... is that only a "spiritual" stoning?

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That is not the age we live in, that is the simple answer.

As I did not live in that age, I cannot really offer as to when and why that penalty would be triggered and what it would entail.

There is always a reason. Our vision is not God's Vision.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

The eye witness accounts are available and have been previously posted.

I see one would try to find them and read them if they were looking for facts and not just a pointless RF debate. Some of those eyewitness accounts are not by Baha'i.

That is fair, is it not OB, Regards Tony

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No........ we've done the eyewitrness accounts many times, and much of the testimony either cannot give a clear account, or is biased, or is ignorant, imo.

The most concrete evidence that I see is that so many Bahais are so completely brainwashed about Bahai that their last form of defence against reasonable debate is to throw the 'You're a Demon' or 'You're a screaming Bahai hater' card in to the ring.

You have never once managed to show any reasonable foundation for the Bahai cause, neither theologically nor politically nor materially.

Let's face it, the majority of Bahauallah's own family did not believe in it. The vasty majority of Abdul-Baha's family did not believe in it, and he had to reach out and down to a grand-son to take it forward. So before you even get started on me you need to acknowledge the truth of what I have just written.

And now we know that the vast majority of ex-Bahais who try to warn against this religion are not horrible covenant breakers but honest decent folks who found out about it.... and some found out the hard way.

Vinayaka said:

Not much of a book, more just a long essay.

Hinduism and the Bahá'í Faith

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Interesting.

oldbadger said:

No........ we've done the eyewitrness accounts many times, and much of the testimony either cannot give a clear account, or is biased, or is ignorant, imo.

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This may help as it lists how it all unfolded with dates.

Chronology of Persecutions of Babis and Baha'is

Regards Tony

oldbadger said:

No........ we've done the eyewitrness accounts many times, and much of the testimony either cannot give a clear account, or is biased, or is ignorant, imo.

The most concrete evidence that I see is that so many Bahais are so completely brainwashed about Bahai that their last form of defence against reasonable debate is to throw the 'You're a Demon' or 'You're a screaming Bahai hater' card in to the ring.

You have never once managed to show any reasonable foundation for the Bahai cause, neither theologically nor politically nor materially.

Let's face it, the majority of Bahauallah's own family did not believe in it. The vasty majority of Abdul-Baha's family did not believe in it, and he had to reach out and down to a grand-son to take it forward. So before you even get started on me you need to acknowledge the truth of what I have just written.

And now we know that the vast majority of ex-Bahais who try to warn against this religion are not horrible covenant breakers but honest decent folks who found out about it.... and some found out the hard way.

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You sound a little agitated. Are you OK?

If you want to give weight to the views of those who persecute the Baha’is that is entirely your right. It is the right of the Baha’is to question the reliability of such testimony as you can question the reliability of the Baha’is testimony.

Most people who have left the Baha’i Faith do so on good terms. There are always exceptions.

Abdu’l-Bahá, Bahiyyah Khanum, Mirza Mahdi, and Asiyah Khánum were all faithful members of Bahá’u’lláh’s family and outstanding in their service to the Baha’i community.

Abdu’l-Bahá had four daughters that survived into adulthood so the next generation was required to find a first born male lineal descendant.

Obviously there were members of Bahá’u’lláh’s family who became Covenant Breakers and any account of Baha’i history will acknowledge that. Its not buried somewhere concealed but out in the open.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

This may help as it lists how it all unfolded with dates.

Chronology of Persecutions of Babis and Baha'is

Regards Tony

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Another Baha'i source, Tony? Wouldn't Amnesty International's stuff have more force if you want to make a point? The persecuted exaggerate, and the aggressors understate, no?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

This may help as it lists how it all unfolded with dates.

Chronology of Persecutions of Babis and Baha'is

Regards Tony

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I have seen all that propaganda before.

It is true history that we need, not that.

adrian009 said:

You sound a little agitated. Are you OK?

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I was quite 'cool' as I wrote.
When you are short of answers you often try to focus upon the writer rather than the writing. True?

If you want to give weight to the views of those who persecute the Baha’is that is entirely your right. It is the right of the Baha’is to question the reliability of such testimony as you can question the reliability of the Baha’is testimony.

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We've done this before.
You had nothing to offer with regard to persecution of Bahai over recent decades, as I remember. There are tens of thousands of Bahais living in Iran and especially around Tehran. Despite being completely at odds with Iran's national religion they all seem to want to stay there? All alive and well?
By all means show us the few that have been convicted of crimes and punished. By all means.

Most people who have left the Baha’i Faith do so on good terms. There are always exceptions.

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I'll have a look around to see what such folks might say.

Abdu’l-Bahá, Bahiyyah Khanum, Mirza Mahdi, and Asiyah Khánum were all faithful members of Bahá’u’lláh’s family and outstanding in their service to the Baha’i community.

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Just those three? OK....

Abdu’l-Bahá had four daughters that survived into adulthood so the next generation was required to find a first born male lineal descendant.

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Yeah. The women were not considered, then?
But we know about this kind of thing.

Obviously there were members of Bahá’u’lláh’s family who became Covenant Breakers and any account of Baha’i history will acknowledge that. Its not buried somewhere concealed but out in the open.

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Yes, but just why, and what did they find wrong with it? They must have had good reason to challenge it all like some of them did.

Vinayaka said:

Another Baha'i source, Tony? Wouldn't Amnesty International's stuff have more force if you want to make a point? The persecuted exaggerate, and the aggressors understate, no?

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Why didn't I think of that?

We've done the Bahai persecutions and killings over and over, and there was not much substance to them before and yet these just get parroted back to us, months or years later on.

What the World needs is a bunch of honest exBahais who really know about the religion to keep a regular lookout for the same old parroted Bahai 'sells' and to correct them with real information.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

This may help as it lists how it all unfolded with dates.

Chronology of Persecutions of Babis and Baha'is

Regards Tony

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May I ask the reason for the focus on persecution of Bahai's? I am not saying its the main focus or anything of the sort but I have heard, read Bahai's speak of persecution quite frequently. This is for clarification.

oldbadger said:

Why didn't I think of that?

We've done the Bahai persecutions and killings over and over, and there was not much substance to them before and yet these just get parroted back to us, months or years later on.

What the World needs is a bunch of honest exBahais who really know about the religion to keep a regular lookout for the same old parroted Bahai 'sells' and to correct them with real information.

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There is a lot of circular quoting with statistics especially. Somebody invents a statistic, somebody quotes it, and then the original guy quotes it back, as if it were fact. It's gone on so long that now, if the Baha'i want to be considered serious, it would be better to quote non-Baha'i sources. Unfortunately, such sources are often few and far between due to the relative insignificance of the Baha'i faith. Why would anyone look at the persecution of Baha'i's when they can look at Rwanda, the Congo, Indonesia, Bangladesh, and get a 100 times more extreme situation.

Vinayaka said:

There is a lot of circular quoting with statistics especially. Somebody invents a statistic, somebody quotes it, and then the original guy quotes it back, as if it were fact. It's gone on so long that now, if the Baha'i want to be considered serious, it would be better to quote non-Baha'i sources. Unfortunately, such sources are often few and far between due to the relative insignificance of the Baha'i faith. Why would anyone look at the persecution of Baha'i's when they can look at Rwanda, the Congo, Indonesia, Bangladesh, and get a 100 times more extreme situation.

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Good post. One thing though. Keeping in mind that I am not Bahai, please consider that it is not always the opposing or foreign statistics are more reasonable, sometimes the native statistics could be the truth. But we must have a reasonable assessment. I am not disagreeing with you completely. Its just my point of view.

Vinayaka said:

Another Baha'i source, Tony? Wouldn't Amnesty International's stuff have more force if you want to make a point? The persecuted exaggerate, and the aggressors understate, no?

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The point was to show the dates of the major events so those that wish to look into the matter can do so.

One would note that a couple of the events were brought on by a few of the Bab'i who objected to the persecution in violent retaliation. This resulted in wholesale slaughter and not lawfully applying justice only to those that committed those crimes.

Regards Tony

oldbadger said:

I have seen all that propaganda before.

It is true history that we need, not that.

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That was an aid showing major milestones in chronological order, nothing else.

It's purpose was to allow a person who was interested in the history to research an event and come to their own conclusion, nothing else.

Regards Tony

firedragon said:

May I ask the reason for the focus on persecution of Bahai's? I am not saying its the main focus or anything of the sort but I have heard, read Bahai's speak of persecution quite frequently. This is for clarification.

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Thank you, it is a good question.

The history of the Faith started with the Bab in early to mid 1800 Persia. It was a time when the charge of apostasy was death.

The Bab was to give a Message that would bring on that charge. The aim was to prepare the way for Baha'u'llah, but a different way to look at Muhammad and the Quran was needed. Inevitably many who accepted the message and became Bab'i were soon accused and persecuted, some killed.

Some Bab'i took it upon themselves to retaliate and this resulted in greater persecution and more killing.

Some see this foundation as hypocritical to a Faith that teaches peace and thus use the history to denounce the overall intent of the Message of Baha'u'llah. I personally see it was a necessary part of an organic faith, a transition from the ability to wage a Holy War to ultimate peace.

I see why some conversation focuses on this aspect is that the persecution omits a fundamental teaching of the Quran, which is their is no compulsion in Faith. The suppression of the Message of the Bab and Baha'u'llah continues in Iran and Muslim countries to this day.

The world would be different place if a peaceful message was allowed to grow without any intent of suppression. What is the harm s it is like you and me, we can agree to disagree.

As you rightly noted, submission to Allah does not focus on worldly power, but in dominting the mind of man, men use the tool of persecution.

Regards Tony

RegardsTony

Vinayaka said:

There is a lot of circular quoting with statistics especially. Somebody invents a statistic, somebody quotes it, and then the original guy quotes it back, as if it were fact. It's gone on so long that now, if the Baha'i want to be considered serious, it would be better to quote non-Baha'i sources. Unfortunately, such sources are often few and far between due to the relative insignificance of the Baha'i faith. Why would anyone look at the persecution of Baha'i's when they can look at Rwanda, the Congo, Indonesia, Bangladesh, and get a 100 times more extreme situation.

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I remember posting the independent eye witness accounts about these times.

The issue is that there were not a lot of these independent witnesses that recorded what happened. I remember one was so appalled at what happened, that He left Persia. What needs to happen is for Iran to open up so the history can be researched openly.

The reason it was important for the time is that the Message was being embraced at a very rapid pace. You have quoted the number of Baha'i as a proof of its impotency to have influence.

I offer that it is proof of its influence, that it will still grow despite all the past and current persecution (mainly Iran and some fundamental Muslim countries) and the wrong information being distributed.

Regards Tony

Vinayaka said:

There is a lot of circular quoting with statistics especially. Somebody invents a statistic, somebody quotes it, and then the original guy quotes it back, as if it were fact. It's gone on so long that now, if the Baha'i want to be considered serious, it would be better to quote non-Baha'i sources. Unfortunately, such sources are often few and far between due to the relative insignificance of the Baha'i faith. Why would anyone look at the persecution of Baha'i's when they can look at Rwanda, the Congo, Indonesia, Bangladesh, and get a 100 times more extreme situation.

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Good points, all.
Well, Bahais who actually describe situations from Bahai history (here) very soon get put right about the more exact details, as far as possible.

As long as it stays small, then no probs. It's only when I think that Bahai is selling itself, or telling silly tales, or knocking other beliefs that I bother to respond.

After all...... it's much more fun and sport to bait @Revoltingest

oldbadger said:

After all...... it's much more fun and sport to bait @Revoltingest

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Beware.....spelling is crucial when making such a remark.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

The point was to show the dates of the major events so those that wish to look into the matter can do so.

One would note that a couple of the events were brought on by a few of the Bab'i who objected to the persecution in violent retaliation. This resulted in wholesale slaughter and not lawfully applying justice only to those that committed those crimes.

Regards Tony

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Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I remember posting the independent eye witness accounts about these times.

The issue is that there were not a lot of these independent witnesses that recorded what happened. I remember one was so appalled at what happened, that He left Persia. What needs to happen is for Iran to open up so the history can be researched openly.

The reason it was important for the time is that the Message was being embraced at a very rapid pace. You have quoted the number of Baha'i as a proof of its impotency to have influence.

I offer that it is proof of its influence, that it will still grow despite all the past and current persecution (mainly Iran and some fundamental Muslim countries) and the wrong information being distributed.

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5 million people have left Syria as legitimate refugees. I met a health care worker here in Canada from the Congo. She came as a refugee. My country keeps a list of countries where we accept refugees from in a fast tracked situation because we know the atrocities going on. As far as I know Iran isn't on that list, but it could be. I haven't researched in a while. One guy left Persia? Really? nYou're coming across as only being concerned about your fellow Baha'i. and not humanity in general.

oldbadger said:

Good points, all.
Well, Bahais who actually describe situations from Bahai history (here) very soon get put right about the more exact details, as far as possible.

As long as it stays small, then no probs. It's only when I think that Bahai is selling itself, or telling silly tales, or knocking other beliefs that I bother to respond.

After all...... it's much more fun and sport to bait @Revoltingest

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Use bacon on the line.

I don't see Baha'i as much of a threat at all. All the ex-Baha'i I've talked to think its declining in population. One fellow explained how he was given more than a dozen contacts with phone numbers and addresses when he moved to a different city. He called all the numbers and didn't get a single active Baha'i. In India they sign the cards just to the proselytisers off their backs. Then they're counted as legitimate Baha'i. The whole thing is a joke, in my view.