Jollybear
Hey
So reading the bible made you change to atheist? Why did it do the apposite for me? Reading it for me turned me into a christian. Whats the difference between me and you?
Also, what was it that made you a christian?
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Your Best Argument for God's Existence
- Thread starter ftacky
- Start date
So reading the bible made you change to atheist? Why did it do the apposite for me? Reading it for me turned me into a christian. Whats the difference between me and you?
Also, what was it that made you a christian?
Looncall
Well-Known Member
It is clearly known that none of this is true, at least among folks not stuck in the dark ages.
The notion that the sun could "overtake" the moon reveals an abysmal ignorance of astronomy.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
I guess because everybody is different?
I don't think the Bible really makes much sense, all in all. What made me a Christian? I believed that Jesus Christ sacrificed his life to save us from our sins. I attended church, Christian youth group, and Bible camp.
Do you find genocide and slavery to be particularly moral things?
Jollybear
Hey
I guess because everybody is different?
What made me a Christian? I believed that Jesus Christ sacrificed his life to save us from our sins. I attended church, Christian youth group, and Bible camp.
I think being a christian is more then mental assent to creeds and more then church attendance.
Yes, i do. Under certain circumstances, within certain reasons, yes. There are CLAUSES within my yes.
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
Okay.
Then I'm sorry, but I'd have to say that I think your view is immoral. I can't believe that immoral things are moral just because some deity supposedly said so.
Jollybear
Hey
Ok, let me approuch this another way. Before i tell you my reasons why i think its moral. First you tell me if you know WHY God authorized these things? Before you call it immoral you first got to know why he authorized it, right? Motive. So, why did he?
SkepticThinker
Veteran Member
I've heard the excuses and attempted justifications for slavery and genocide before. Not to be rude or anything, but I think they're garbage and I think Christians apparently have no choice but to accept and rationalize terrible things simply because they have to justify it somehow, given that they believe it has come from God.
Jollybear
Hey
Ok, so, why did God authorize it then?
Perhaps you were considering the passages one by one, rather than critically comparing the many contradictions and inconsistencies.
So the rules are mutable; applicable in some situations but not in others, to be applied according to convenience?
How to decide? What's the point of listing commandments or prohibitions if they're intended to be kept, ignored or 'interpreted' at whim?
Hasn't this sort of moral flexibility resulted in thousands of years of war, cruelty and oppression?
Jollybear
Hey
No, im very versed in the bible. Ive compared verses and ive looked at those so called contradictions.
No, not convenience. Not at all.
Its not whim.
Case by case.
I know why God authorized the genecide and slavery. Do you? I havent stated why yet because i wanna first see if you or skeptic" knows first. If you dont know, then that tells me your rejection is from emotionalism and not intellectualism.
I guess because everybody is different?
If all you ever heard was Christendom's version of Christianity, then that doesn't surprise me. Its the reason why I left the church system. But I never threw the baby out with the bathwater, like so many do, assuming that God is the founder of Christendom. Sorry, it was the other guy. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42)
You really think that is what makes someone a Christian? Not even close. (Matthew 22:36-39) You don't let go of someone you love and believe in, just because others tell you lies about them. If you do, you are as bad as the liars.
Genocide and slavery? I have heard you mention these before as if God condones these things.
When humans do these things, they are viewed as negative, but when you delve into the Bible, you find explanations for why they were practiced in ancient times....which is NOT the same as excuses.
Humans have no power over life and death. If a human takes a life, then he cannot bring that life back. Not so with the Creator. Think of one of those acts of "genocide" like the flood of Noah's day as an example. What was God's intention in wiping out the world of that time? Demonic intervention had accelerated violence and immorality in the world of mankind so rapidly, that the whole earth was "ruined" in God's site. (Genesis 6:11-12) He was not bringing to ruin something that wasn't already ruined. Noah is called a "preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5) so all the time he was constructing the ark (probably decades) he preached to the people about righteousness....but not a soul responded. Only Noah was seen to merit God's favor. (Genesis 6:5-8) But even he had to obey his God in order to be saved.
What about the children who perished in the flood? Were they innocent victims of God's punishment? Not really, because they were already victims of their parent's bad example, and also the immoral environment in which they were being raised. The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah also reflect this situation.
Every person who heard Noah preach or who saw the structure that he was building, knew why he was doing it. But they chose to ridicule him and ignore him. If God had spared that world, then imagine what it would be like living today if it had continued? Its bad enough now as we see the world again sinking to low levels of morality and godlessness. No one is safe even walking the streets any more. No one knows when the next terrorist bomb will explode while they are enjoying their morning coffee.
And if God had spared those thousands of children, who was going to look after them all? Wasn't it better to take them all together so that in the coming resurrection, parents and their children will be brought back to life together, but in a different world, in a much better environment, more conducive to learning God's ways and adopting his standards? I believe that they will be given that opportunity.
People tend to treat God as if he was human with human limitations. He sees into the future and plans his long-range actions on the final outcome.
Slavery in Israel was much more like employment. It was the ancient Jewish equivalent of social security.
You cannot put today's standards on yesterday's attitudes. Without slavery, many Israelites would have had no way to pay themselves out of debt. Throwing a man in jail took him away from his family who depended on him to feed and house them. Being able to put a child into service also allowed a father to care for the rest of his family. Unlike today's kids, children back then worked to serve the interests of the whole family. It was why a bride price was to be paid by taking a girl away from her family...to compensate them for the loss of her services.
It was not hard labor under a whip, but it was expected that a slave could be punished for neglecting his assigned job. Don't forget that this was the same society that could put a drunken good-for-nothing son to death for abusing his parents.
Humans have used corporal punishment for centuries without thinking twice about it. In western society it was quite acceptable to take a cane to a errant school student, or for a father to take his son down behind the woodshed for a good whooping if he had misbehaved.
Times change and we are no longer permitted to do that....but we look back on the old days and think it was a bit barbaric now. But at the time no one thought twice about it.
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I can take a pretty good guess about why society authorized genocide and slavery, and how they conveniently rationalized their selfish acts and institutions with scriptural interpretation.
Jollybear
Hey
Ok, go ahead, im listening.
Do you really find the the motivations behind plunder and slavery hard to understand?
Jollybear
Hey
1 and B i guess. Lets go with that.
Jollybear
Hey
In the case of the genecide the land was stolen. It was alotted to shem (isreal) in noahs day. It got stolen generations later. God was against steeling. So he had isreal take back what was theres.
So, this genocide people think isreal was doing the steeling, when the oposite was the case, they wer taking back what was stolen from them.
Tell me, what information systems originate by themselves? Can't find any, can you?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is true, the Bible was written for another age in history, not for current times, and that is why another revelation from God was required later. First, we had the Qur'an, and then we had the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.
“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
You were biologically born. Won't find God anywhere in the process, can you?
No, I did not originate by myself.