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Your Best Argument for God's Existence

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why are they evidence? There are no first person accounts of him, or any empirical evidence.
We know Jesus existed because the New Testament testifies of Jesus...
The existence of Muhammad is established by historical records.
If you want first person accounts and empirical evidence, we have that for the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Right, the parts wer designed from blueprints with a built car in mind. Which is indicative to DNA information having in mind what our built body will be like using proteins.



Right, unless one was a engineer or machanic, it be hard to rebuild the car, and impossible for a tornado to do so.

Likewise, natural, unintelligent forces (e.g. the tornado) building our body's?



Id like to clarify more on the non design. When our bodys die, they break down, decompose and become firtilizer for the ground. So, the former design (we can call it body) is no longer THAT design anymore. In otherwords its NON design now. But, its turned into a DIFFERENT design. That new design is firtilizer.

What you think?

That new design (fertilizer) is an example of NON design? You are become incoherent. If the bacteria have been designed to survive only by eating rotting ex-people, than rotting ex-people must also be part of the design. Otherwise, it will be like designing a car without taking care that someone designs its fuel.
So, you still fail to provide an example of NON design I can use to compare design, against. Only when you do we can say: yes, that is an instance of ID (or SD, more likely). Otherwise, your claim that everything is designed is like saying that all we see exists: a useless information.

At the end of the day, you forget a little detail, with your DNA analogy: there are viable explanations (more than viable, actually) that show how you can create complexity (e.g. our body/DNA) by means of unconscious mechanisms.

All you need is:

1) A simple replicant needing resources at the beginning
2) A certain statistical distribution of errors in the duplication instructions
3) The inheritance of the errors
4) Reduced resources, which drives the selection of replicants with favorable errors

Repeat..... After a few billions years, it might look designed, but it is not.

Your job now is to show that this mechanism does not obtain, because if it does, it shows how you can have the appearance of design without a designer.

Ciao

- viole
 
That new design (fertilizer) is an example of NON design? You are become incoherent. If the bacteria have been designed to survive only by eating rotting ex-people, than rotting ex-people must also be part of the design. Otherwise, it will be like designing a car without taking care that someone designs its fuel.
So, you still fail to provide an example of NON design I can use to compare design, against. Only when you do we can say: yes, that is an instance of ID (or SD, more likely). Otherwise, your claim that everything is designed is like saying that all we see exists: a useless information.

Ill explain more.....the living human body is designed. After it dies, its no longer designed, as in no longer designed as a human living body, because it died and became firtalizer. So, its non designed as far as concerned it being the human living body. But, it now becomes a new, different design. That new design is fertilizer. So, its like recycling designs.

An illustration would be using scrap cars and crushing and melting and re using the parts and making new parts out of the material. So, recycling the designs. So, crushing and melting the metal makes the car design, non car design now. But, it becomes a new design for something else because it gets recycled.

At the end of the day, you forget a little detail, with your DNA analogy: there are viable explanations (more than viable, actually) that show how you can create complexity (e.g. our body/DNA) by means of unconscious mechanisms.

All you need is:

1) A simple replicant needing resources at the beginning

How does it replicate? What is its resource?

2) A certain statistical distribution of errors in the duplication instructions

A error in DNA causes a harmful mutation in the organism. That creates disorder, not order.

3) The inheritance of the errors
4) Reduced resources, which drives the selection of replicants with favorable errors

How do errors create information though?

Repeat..... After a few billions years, it might look designed, but it is not.

So, simply put, by chance, lots of time and lots of trial and error, we got information?

Your job now is to show that this mechanism does not obtain, because if it does, it shows how you can have the appearance of design without a designer.

Ciao

- viole

When we type posts to eachother, its a form of human information, comunication. Our posts to eachother dont happen by chance, lots of time and errors. It happens by intention and mind.

Why would information in DNA be any different?
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
How do errors create information though?
So, simply put, by chance, lots of time and lots of trial and error, we got information?

Well, information is constant in te Universe, but yes, you can have adaptive complexity.

i don’t understand your question. This is basic biology.

Ciao

- viole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Elaborate on information being constant in the universe?

What is your knowledge of fundamental physics? I need that information to adapt my answer accordingly.

For instance, do you know what information is?

Ciao

- viole
 
What is your knowledge of fundamental physics? I need that information to adapt my answer accordingly.

For instance, do you know what information is?

Ciao

- viole

Information is codes or words or language. The codes or words come in the form of symbols. Like, a, b, c, d, e, ect. They are mixed up to form words, information to communicate to something else.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Information is codes or words or language. The codes or words come in the form of symbols. Like, a, b, c, d, e, ect. They are mixed up to form words, information to communicate to something else.

This is not a viable definition. It is wishy washy and basically meaningless. Not enough information, I guess, lol. For instance it does not tell you how to measure information. For information is physical, it can be measured in bits or in energy/temperature.

Information is, as a first approximation, the minimum amount of bits that would totally specify the state of a system, or message.

For instance, a structured string, like for instance the string composed of all the lines of a book, contains vastly less information than a string of the same length whose characters are completely random and uncorrelated.

And this is because, ceteris paribus, structure requires less bits to be specified than randomness, in general. For instance, lossless compression of a book takes much less space than compression of a random string of the same initial size.

Are we on the same page? If not, please tell me what definition of information you are using.

Ciao

- viole
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We know Jesus existed because the New Testament testifies of Jesus...
So we know Aslan existed because The Chronicles of Narnia attests to him? How about Voldemort?
When was the New Testament established as an scholarly, authoritative work?
Ill explain more.....the living human body is designed.
Not intentionally designed. There was no conscious entity involved.
It's "designed" automatically by natural selection.
So, simply put, by chance, lots of time and lots of trial and error, we got information?
"Information" is a confusing, ambiguous term; and whenever I hear a religious apologist use terms like "trial and error" I know we're about to go off the deep end.
I think you need to learn more about the mechanisms described in the Theory of Evolution.
Why would information in DNA be any different?
The nucleotide sequence is constantly being added to and subtracted from by numerous, unintentional mechanisms. Sequences that increase reproductive success tend to proliferate through the population. Those that decrease success are weeded out -- their carriers don't pass them on. None of this requires a conscious designer. It all happens automatically.

Cars do not reproduce. They don't generate offspring with variations for natural selection to work with.

Living, reproducing organisms have an automatic, unguided mechanism to sort out the changes in each generation. Cars don't have generations, they don't reproduce.
Why is this so hard to understand for creationists and religious apologists?
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
#Philosophy

- **Dualism/Idealism:** Most Setians are Dualistic, seeing consciousness and matter as two separate but existent things (Set and Horus respectively). Some are idealists, meaning they believe consciousness is foundational and matter does not actually exist. Setianism is incompatible with materialism, the position that only matter exists.

- **Nature vs. Non-Nature:** Nature is the deterministic, material, objective, mindless, universal cosmos of logic, math, and physics. The Unnatural is the autonomous, immaterial, subjective, conscious, personal universe of the mind. These are seen as separate due to the reasons below.

- **Property Dualism:**

> [1] The mind/consciousness and the brain/matter have different properties (Property Dualism). [2] Things with non-identical properties cannot be the same thing (The Law of Identity). [3] Therefore, the mind/consciousness and the brain/matter cannot be the same thing.

- **The Certainty of Consciousness:**

> [1] Our own mind is the only thing we can be absolutely certain exists and is the only thing we can ever know directly. [2] Matter is only known through the mind. [3] We cannot reduce something we know directly to something we know through it, and we cannot reduce something we know with certainty for something we are uncertain of. [4] Therefore, we cannot reduce the mind and consciousness to matter and the brain... Without a mind or consciousness the very concept of “knowing” or “being aware of something” makes no sense. If you were not a conscious mind you could not know or learn anything. Matter is one of these things you could not know or learn about.

# Science

- **Manipulation of Nature:** such as

>Another piece of empirical evidence is the ability for the human mind to manipulate nature. This can be seen in examples such as using advanced chemistry to make highly advanced medication that would never arise in nature without such a mind, or in our ability to level mountains for cities and roads, to stop up rivers and obliterate (or regrow) forests... Deterministic systems like nature do not manipulate themselves in such a way, it is within the "programming" to act in a specific, linear, and entirely predictable way (which is why we are able to test things consistently with the scientific method).

- **Contradiction of Nature:**

>Self-regulation, for example, is a well-known aspect of the human mind which requires us to be aware of our deterministic nature, catch it, and act differently...thanks to our consciousness and free will we can self-regulate – we become aware of this natural desire, the response our body is making towards our coworker or stranger, and then… we can simply choose not to follow it.. Placebos are another example of this, where you are given something that explicitly causes no change to the deterministic system (placebos by definition do not cause physiological change). However, the mental belief that one is being aided can cause actual, objective change in the physiology of the body, such as with pain. The mind causes physiological change to the system.

- **The Upper Paleolithic Revolution:**

>...humans existed as a species, physically/biologically, for around 150,000 years without any advances in higher consciousness. We were another animal, very slowly learning to interact with the world we lived in within a purely animalistic/survivalist mindset. Then, rather suddenly, came abstract thought, art, religion, jewelry, and eventually things like language and alphabets, cities and cultures. Our consciousness greatly leapt forwards, and began exponentially increasing on such a level that it still hasn't stopped.

No takers?
 

Baroodi

Active Member
First tell me about how the first poodle and who was the first to
speak Greek.

The first to speak Greek was descendant from Noah the son of Adam
The first Poodle and Adam were God Creation (Be and it will be) God Almighty, the omnipotent, The creator of this amazing universe
(The Sun should not overtake the Moon, Nor the night should overrun the day. each is swimming in an orbit) Quran; Chapter Yaseen; verse 40.
 
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