Your Best Argument for God's Existence

[Twilight Hue]

Oh...DNA originated by itself? I must’ve missed the peer-reviewed paper.

Boy wouldn't that make an interesting read. Heh.

 

[Twilight Hue]

A little bit of introductory study in microchemistry , how atoms form and recombine, learning about amino acids, and then how enzymes are formed into the little DNA replicating powerhouses they are will go a long way in understanding our origins as human beings. No God required.

 

[Valjean]

If i do a mild typo, you could still read it. But if its a major one, youd ask me to repeat what i said.

DNA's full of typos -- and insertions, and deletions, transpositions &c. Some help, some hinder most have no apparent effect. Dysfunctional ones get weeded out or turned off, they may even be lethal. Helpful ones remain.

But, a typo doesnt explain the origin of the information. It also does not create information, it can change or destroy it, but create it? Plus, what about the origin?

You're asking for courses on biochemistry and abiogenesis, more than can be covered in a chat forum.
Chemicals interact and combine, they self-assemble into biological components, they self replicate. This includes RNA, if that's what you're asking for, specifically.
You can read about this in any biology text. You can find simple videos about it on Youtube.

I think a lot of your skepticism may be personal incredulity due to lack of knowledge about biochemistry.

 

[Jollybear]

This is the basic of biological evolution. So, maybe 150 years old successful scrutiny of the theory might indicate that obvious defeaters are not present. I wonder how creationist insist in seeing obvious defeaters, when the only thing that is obvious is their ignorance of the subject.

In your case, you are right. In most cases the random error will generate a defective phenotype. However, random means that a change might be favorable. Why not? It is random, and if the set of possible changes includes a small improvement, then it is only a question of time before a random error activates it. Because random means equally distributed over the possible effects on the phenotype.

If a nice cake recipe gets a printing error that slighly change the amount of one ingredient, it could theoretically be that the resulting cake is better. And if a lot of people like that new cake, then the priniting error is kept and used for all other printings of the recepy. I think that such serendipitous events were common in gastronomy. For instance, Champagne originated from an undesigned accident.

It is the same with DNA. If the change is favorable, then it entails that the corresponding phenotype is “fitter” than its partners. It might find food slightly easier than his partners, be slightly better at escaping predators and so. And then, since the error is now part of its DNA, it gets transmited to the progeny until the old DNA is replaced with the new. Like the cake recipe.

By the way, the complex structure we observe today is the cumulation of naturally seleceted and preserved errors over the eons.

No designer reqired.

So, how did the cake recipe information originate? Whats the origin of the DNA?

Your bunny is very sweet. But do not expect me to be softened by that, lol.

Ciao

- viole

Ah really? And i thought the bunny would have made you believe the whole bible by now, lol

 

[Valjean]

Oh...DNA originated by itself? I must’ve missed the peer-reviewed paper.

Apparently you did -- all the more worrisome given the thousands of empirical, peer reviewed studies of self assembling, self replicating molecules and bio-structures published in the scientific journals.

What alternative mechanism would you propose? Magic?

 

[Valjean]

So, how did the cake recipe information originate? Whats the origin of the DNA?

have you tried googling "origin of DNA" or similar? This isn't just unsupported guesswork.

 

[Jollybear]

So, if one of the ancestors of Sitting Bull takes hold of some nuclear weapons and blows all major American Cities to Kingdome come.... do you think he would have a moral justification?

Ciao

- viole

Thats a good point. Your making me think too hard now.

Well, he would have some justification because his people and there babies wer killed and there land stolen. However, bombing it would destroy the land. So....that may not be the smartest way of doing it.

The smarter way would be to destroy the major government targets.

 

[Jollybear]

Well, I don't believe gods exist, so I think that men "authorized" such things, and I think that's obvious.

But that's a great question. Why would a loving god authorize horribly immoral actions? I think the answer is that such a god would not. A malevolent god might though.

You dont even believe any God exists?

 

[Jollybear]

My morality is based on reasoning and logic, rather than the commands of some invisible deity.

Where did reason and logic come from?

 

[Jollybear]

Why does your god require human beings to carry out genocide on his behalf?

Because if he did everything for them, hed cripple them.

 

[Valjean]

Where did reason and logic come from?

They are the application of mathematical manipulation of the laws and emergent properties of Nature. Mathematics originated with the Big Bang.

 

[Valjean]

Because if he did everything for them, hed cripple them.

So He requires them to violate the very laws He'd laid down for them? He requires them to condemn themselves to Hell?

 

[Jollybear]

have you tried googling "origin of DNA" or similar? This isn't just unsupported guesswork.

No, i dont wanna google it. I wanna valjean it.

 

[Jollybear]

They are the application of mathematical manipulation of the laws and emergent properties of Nature. Mathematics originated with the Big Bang.

Mathmatical minipulation of laws? Emergent properties of nature? Where did THAT originate?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Apparently you did -- all the more worrisome given the thousands of empirical, peer reviewed studies of self assembling, self replicating molecules and bio-structures published in the scientific journals.

What alternative mechanism would you propose? Magic?

“Magic?” No.
Unless you mean wisdom by an intelligent designer. No magic involved, just science.

 

[Valjean]

No, i dont wanna google it. I wanna valjean it.

D'oh!
I'm not a biologist, or an author. You want a quick, simple overview? try Youtube.

Mathmatical minipulation of laws? Emergent properties of nature? Where did THAT originate?

The Big Bang, of course. It's the operating system the universe was created with.

 

[Valjean]

“Magic?” No.
Unless you mean wisdom by an intelligent designer. No magic involved, just science.

No science:
Until this intelligent designer can be detected, studied and tested, S/He's outside the purview of science. Science can't deal with the supernatural; it can't study what can't be detected. It needs concrete, observable evidence.

Thus far, the world we observe can be explained without resort to an invisible wonder worker.
There is no actual, empirical evidence of such a personage; no evidence of anything suspending or meddling with the known laws of Nature.

The unfolding of the laws of Nature is how our world works, it's what we observe every day. This does not require any God.

God, presumably, works independent of these automatic mechanisms. He meddles, He performs miracles. Action outside of ordinary chemistry and physics is magic!

 

[Baroodi]

It is clearly known that none of this is true, at least among folks not stuck in the dark ages.

The notion that the sun could "overtake" the moon reveals an abysmal ignorance of astronomy.

No one said the sun could overtake the moon! Anyhow astronomy is still in an abysmal ignorance. What mankind know about it is nothing compared to the facts out there (You were only given a tiny bit of knowledge); Quran addressing humans. Prophet of Islam Mohammed made a prophecy 14 centuries back, it says: one of the sign of the advent of the resurrection day is the rising of the Sun from the west (instead of the east). This is a different astronomy to come. We as Muslims believe in this.

Thanks for your post

 

[viole]

So, how did the cake recipe information originate? Whats the origin of the DNA?

All the good things to those who wait.

First we need to settle the fact that random errors can actually improve things, and that such improvements can be persistent and replace the original "design". If you do not agree, please tell me why.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Valjean]

All the good things to those who wait.

First we need to settle the fact that random errors can actually improve things, and that such improvements can be persistent and replace the original "design". If you do not agree, please tell me why.

Ciao

- viole

But there a dozens of examples of mutations improving things. Some are even generally harmful mutations that persist because they confer a local benefit to a specific population.