Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
But what has this to do with the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. There's no where that Jesus or Nicodemus said anything about baptism.
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Born of water and of the Spirit?
- Thread starter Faithofchristian
- Start date
But what has this to do with the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. There's no where that Jesus or Nicodemus said anything about baptism.
socharlie
Active Member
a lot, that was the way entering Heaven - spiritual/astral world, just explaining what means to worship in spirit and truth in the next Chapter 4. Heaven entered when soul body exits physical body, it can be after death or entering higher levels of consciousness and that what Nicodemus was asking Jesus. NDE is from the same story. Not baptism but immersion.
CohenDavidson
Member
He means what he said in Mark 16:16... He is referring to baptism. Baptism takes place in water and represents a spiritual rebirth. Romans 6:1-7 tells us how baptism represents a resurrection and cleanses us and "resets" our lives. In fact we "die" to sin and are reborn spiritually during this process. 1 Peter 3:21 tells us that when we are baptized in water, we do not do it to be physically clean. We are saved by the mechanism of baptism by the resurrection of Jesus. Baptism in the water results in the washing of sins. Acts 2:38. It also is symbolic of Jesus's resurrection as explained in Romans 6.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Look you can not go to the new testament,
When all Nicodemus had was the Old Testament to go by.
At the time of Jesus and Nicodemus conversation the New Testament was not even written yet. All they had was the Old Testament to go by.
CohenDavidson
Member
Yes, and Jesus tells Nicodemus that that isn't the case being born of a women. Jesus said being born of water and of the spirit is separate from physical birth from a women. John 3:4-8
CohenDavidson
Member
??? Not understanding what you're saying. Why can we not use the new testament to understand what Jesus was saying here? These are the words of Jesus. This is when he was establishing his teachings. We can use his words to help us understand as well as the apostle's words as well... When Jesus finished his conversation with Nicodemus, he went and baptized. John 3:22 Baptism is what he was referring to considering his statement in Mark 16:16 to be condemned is the same as not entering into the kingdom of God.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Look Jesus said in John 3:6--"That which is born of the flesh is flesh"
Can you explain just how is anyone born of flesh if not by their mothers?
Thereby when a mother's water breaks your born thru that water, being born of the flesh.
Unless you have another way of being born of the flesh.
This is what Nicodemus couldn't figure out, how is it possible to be born again of the flesh.
So can you explain how is it possible to be born again of the flesh ?
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Look the new testament was not written until after the death and Resurrection of Jesus, Paul was not even a disciple when Jesus was here on earth, before he was nailed to the cross.
Not only that all Nicodemus had was the old testament, for the new testament was not even written yet.
You can not go by what Nicodemus didn't have.
How is Nicodemus know anything about the new testament, when the new testament wasn't even written yet.
Ponder This
Well-Known Member
The unclean do not enter the Kingdom of God.
The unspiritual do not enter the Kingdom of God.
The unclean is made clean by being born of water.
The clean become spiritual by being born in the spirit.
Nicodemus should know this because of all the laws regarding purification. It is shocking for him not to understand the purpose of those rituals.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
What do you mean exactly by being born of water ?
If your referring to water baptism, then show in the Old Testament Scriptures, as to where the people of Israel were being baptized in the Old Testament Scriptures.
Because at the time of Nicodemus they only had the Old Testament Scriptures to go by, for the New Testament Scriptures had not been written yet.
The baptism of the people of Israel, didn't come about until John the Baptist was born, before John the Baptist was born, there were no baptism of the people of Israel in the Old Testament Scriptures.
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The Church teaches that baptism was foreshadowed in Hebrew Scripture, They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
1Cor 10:2
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
It means we are born of the natural world.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Look the book of Hebrews was written after the death and Resurrection of Christ.
Therefore the book of Hebrews is part of the New Testament.
Which Nicodemus didn't have,
all Nicodemus and the people had at that time was the Old Testament Scriptures.
There is nothing the Old Testament Scriptures, that says anything about baptism, Baptism didn't come about until John the Baptist was born.
I referred to 1 Cor not Hebrews. Do you understand what is meant by foreshadowed?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Baptism is a variation of the Jewish Mikvah, which was used before and during Jesus' time.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Do you understand, that back at the time of Nicodemus those people then didn't have the new testament to go by.
So anytime that you quote from the new testament will not apply to those people back then. When in fact they didn't have the New Testament Scriptures to go by.
No more than you would try to take the technology of to day and try to apply it to people back 300 hundred years ago.
It will not work.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
There is nothing in the Old Testament Scriptures that indicates anything about baptism. The only place you will find anything about baptism is in the New Testament Scriptures.
Baptism didn't happen until John the Baptist. That why John is known in the New Testament Scriptures
As John the Baptist.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
"Baptism" is a word that comes from the Greek, and "mikvah" is from the Hebrew. That ritual cleansing is found in Torah and Tanakh, and mikvah baths have been found by archaeologists that date back to Jesus' time and before.
What John the Baptist did was to use the mikvah with a blessing as not only a form of ritual cleansing but also with the intent of having one dedicate or rededicate their life to God, which is what a person does when converting to Judaism. Later, the church added to that ritual to reflect both Jesus and the H.S.
Jesus was a Jew operating out of a Jewish paradigm, therefore symbols and rituals largely are reflected in Christianity.
Faithofchristian
Well-Known Member
Look those are baths, not a place of Baptism. Further more there is no where in the Old Testament Scriptures, that Priest baptized anyone. Not until John the Baptist
Look the archaeologist found many baths in Rome also, that doesn't mean they are a place of baptism, as you want to believe.
Baths are where people would go to bathe themselves, it's wasn't a place to hold baptism's at.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Born of water means physical birth. Doesn't a woman often say her water broke just before she gives birth. Born of the spirit means being resurrected with a new spiritual body when Christ returns. Many people think they are already born again but the Bible says they will be invisible like the wind when they are born again. Physical body born of water. Spiritual body born of the spirit. So plain and simple but few understand.