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Born of water and of the Spirit?

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
In the Bible, in the book of John 3:3-6,
Jesus and Nicodemus in their Conversation, Jesus speaking to Nicodemus said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"

What does Jesus mean by this ?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
In the Bible, in the book of John 3:3-6,
Jesus and Nicodemus in their Conversation, Jesus speaking to Nicodemus said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"

What does Jesus mean by this ?
Elsewhere in the scriptures, Jesus referred to the living water He provides and to the Holy Spirit as the living water, so I think this verse is in reference to the new life one receives by faith in Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. No one can enter the kingdom of God without being born again.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Elsewhere in the scriptures, Jesus referred to the living water He provides and to the Holy Spirit as the living water, so I think this verse is in reference to the new life one receives by faith in Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. No one can enter the kingdom of God without being born again.

But how does that apply to being born of a woman.
If you notice in Jesus and Nicodemus conversation, they are speaking about the womb of a woman. In John 3:4

So how does a man being born of water, apply to a woman?
 

socharlie

Active Member
In the Bible, in the book of John 3:3-6,
Jesus and Nicodemus in their Conversation, Jesus speaking to Nicodemus said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"

What does Jesus mean by this ?
The answer is here, sort this out:
24Now they had been sent from the Pharisees. 25They asked him, and said to him, “Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26John answered them saying, “I baptize in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know. 27It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.” 28These things took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

29The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30“This is He on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ 31“I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water.” 32John testified saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.33“I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34“I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.”
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
In the Bible, in the book of John 3:3-6,
Jesus and Nicodemus in their Conversation, Jesus speaking to Nicodemus said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"

What does Jesus mean by this ?
I believe He meant that we must be baptized by water and again by receiving the Holy Ghost. I know there are some who believe that being "born of water" simply means being physically born to a woman. I don't believe this to be the case, because when the scriptures speak of one's physical birth, they say being "born of the flesh."
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
The answer is here, sort this out:
24Now they had been sent from the Pharisees. 25They asked him, and said to him, “Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26John answered them saying, “I baptize in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know. 27It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.” 28These things took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

29The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30“This is He on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ 31“I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water.” 32John testified saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.33“I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34“I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.”


Ok, but how does that fit into the conversation where Jesus and Nicodemus are talking about the womb of a woman in John 3:4.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
3 Jesus answered and said unto him,Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot* see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a manbe born when he is old? can* he enter the second time into hismother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered,Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot* enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born ofthe flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof,but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so isevery one that is born of the Spirit.

@Faithofchristian -

The "water" wasn't applying to the woman so lets take this line by line... (not necessarily in order)

vs 3) Jesus makes the case that a "born agin" experience is necessary to see the kingdom of God - he is talking about a spiritual "kingdom of God".
vs 4) Nicodemus doesn't know what he is talking about and thinks he is talking about women since the only birth he has understood, at this point, is the natural birth that is through a woman
vs 6) Jesus explains that he isn't talking about a natural birth but a spiritual birth. God is a Spirit and thus the born-again experience is a spiritual rebirth. That which is flesh (the body that we have) is born of flesh and this isn't the re-birth that Jesus is talking about (not to mention that I doubt Nicodemus's mother would want him in the womb as a grown man)
vs 5) the spiritual re-birth is by water and spirit. There are many intepretations of this. As @InChrist said, water could mean faith in Christ. In Eph 5 it talkes about the "washing of the water by the word" - which again would be Jesus Christ as the Word manifest. Or "Now you are clean by my word", which Jesus referenced

Other take this to mean water baptism and have their scriptures such as Acts where they confessedJ esus as Lord and were water baptised. (the problem I have here is that it doesn't seem to fit vs 7&8 because I can see water.

A third believes that it is simply another reference to the work of the Holy Spirit. (Rivers of living water)

I am of the opinion of "washing of the water by the word", faith in Christ for the spirit and the word for the renewing of the mind to fully see the Kingdom of God manifested on earth.

Since in all three cases, we all baptize in water, I don't think the interpretation is as important as faith in Christ.

vs 7 & 8) Afirms that he is talking about a spiritual rebirth.
 

socharlie

Active Member
Ok, but how does that fit into the conversation where Jesus and Nicodemus are talking about the womb of a woman in John 3:4.
Only Nicodemus speaking of woman not Jesus. Nicodemus understands literally as born again physically of a mother but it is not what Jesus meant. Jesus meant born of God from above just it is said in chapter one -Spirit "descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon".
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
I believe He meant that we must be baptized by water and again by receiving the Holy Ghost. I know there are some who believe that being "born of water" simply means being physically born to a woman. I don't believe this to be the case, because when the scriptures speak of one's physical birth, they say being "born of the flesh."

Ok, but the only problem with what your saying, is that at the time of Jesus and Nicodemus they only had the Old Testament to go by, the New Testament hadn't been written yet.

So before John the Baptist was born no one was being baptized. So that means Jesus and Nicodemus wasn't referring to baptism.

Seeing how Jesus said to Nicodemus, "Art thou a master of Israel and knows not these things" John 3:10.

Therefore seeing Nicodemus was a master in Israel of knowing the Old Testament Scriptures. So Nicodemus wouldn't have any idea about baptism in the Old Testament Scriptures.

Seeing there's no where in the Old Testament Scriptures, where people were being baptized, until John the Baptist was born.
But before John the Baptist was born, no one was being baptized

So that means that Jesus wasn't referring to baptism nor was Nicodemus.

So what Jesus was referring to,
Went much deeper than Nicodemus could understand by his knowledge of the Old Testament Scriptures.
 

socharlie

Active Member
In the Bible, in the book of John 3:3-6,
Jesus and Nicodemus in their Conversation, Jesus speaking to Nicodemus said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"

What does Jesus mean by this ?
Another thing John, the Baptist said he was sent to IMMERSE, not to wash like giving regular mikvah, he was sent to make the path of God straight - lift ignorance (Strong's : sin = "error of the understanding").
 

InChrist

Free4ever
But how does that apply to being born of a woman.
If you notice in Jesus and Nicodemus conversation, they are speaking about the womb of a woman. In John 3:4

So how does a man being born of water, apply to a woman?
The womb of a woman was not the subject they were speaking about. Nicodemus alone mentioned the womb of a woman in his question. I believe he was asking the question he did because he didn't grasp the concept of being born of the Spirit which Jesus was speaking about and was trying to relate it in his mind to physical birth.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:3-8
 

allfoak

Alchemist
In the Bible, in the book of John 3:3-6,
Jesus and Nicodemus in their Conversation, Jesus speaking to Nicodemus said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"

What does Jesus mean by this ?
He is talking of two births.
Physical and of the Spirit.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
The womb of a woman was not the subject they were speaking about. Nicodemus alone mentioned the womb of a woman in his question. I believe he was asking the question he did because he didn't grasp the concept of being born of the Spirit which Jesus was speaking about and was trying to relate it in his mind to physical birth.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:3-8


The question is about, what it means to born again of the water.

There's two births being spoken of.
One the physical birth and the Spiritual birth.

The physical birth, is by our mother's at birth, This is why Jesus said, That which is born of the flesh is flesh" John 3:6

Exactly how are people born of the flesh, if not by their mothers ?

Therefore when your mother's water breaks, you are born again thru that water, thereby being born again of the flesh.

This is what Nicodemus could not figure out, How a man can be born again of the flesh.

Can you figure it out, how it's possible to be born again of the flesh ?
 
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Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
Another thing John, the Baptist said he was sent to IMMERSE, not to wash like giving regular mikvah, he was sent to make the path of God straight - lift ignorance (Strong's : sin = "error of the understanding").


But what you don't seem to realize is that Baptism was new to the people of Israel.

Nicodemus knew the Old Testament Scriptures, and no where in the Old Testament Scriptures were people being baptized, until John the Baptist was born and started to baptized people.

There are two births being spoken of by Christ Jesus,
The physical birth and the spiritual birth.

This is why Christ Jesus said-- "That which is born of the flesh is flesh"

So how exactly is anyone born of the flesh, if not by their mothers at birth ?

Therefore when a mother's water breaks, your born thru that water, Thereby being born of the flesh.

Now the question is, how are you born again of the flesh ?

This is what confused Nicodemus.
 

socharlie

Active Member
But what you don't seem to realize is that Baptism was new to the people of Israel.

Nicodemus knew the Old Testament Scriptures, and no where in the Old Testament Scriptures were people being baptized, until John the Baptist was born and started to baptized people.

There are two births being spoken of by Christ Jesus,
The physical birth and the spiritual birth.

This is why Christ Jesus said-- "That which is born of the flesh is flesh"

So how exactly is anyone born of the flesh, if not by their mothers at birth ?

Therefore when a mother's water breaks, your born thru that water, Thereby being born of the flesh.

Now the question is, how are you born again of the flesh ?

This is what confused Nicodemus.
man comes already born of woman but he still needs water and spirit, it can be interpreted the way you said. What enters the kingdom is not flesh.
 
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socharlie

Active Member
mikvah was immersion ritual purification, what is water baptism during time of Jesus?
John's Baptism was completely something else.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
mikvah was immersion ritual purification, what is water baptism during time of Jesus?
John's Baptism was completely something else.

There were no water baptism before John the Baptist was born.

But anyway, Baptism has nothing to do with what Jesus and Nicodemus are talking about.

Jesus plainly said--"That which is born of the flesh is flesh"

How else is a person born of the flesh, if not by their mothers ?

Thereby when a woman's water breaks your born thru that water, thereby being born again of the flesh.

This is what Nicodemus could not figure out, how's it possible to be born again of the flesh.
 

socharlie

Active Member
There were no water baptism before John the Baptist was born.

But anyway, Baptism has nothing to do with what Jesus and Nicodemus are talking about.

Jesus plainly said--"That which is born of the flesh is flesh"

How else is a person born of the flesh, if not by their mothers ?

Thereby when a woman's water breaks your born thru that water, thereby being born again of the flesh.

This is what Nicodemus could not figure out, how's it possible to be born again of the flesh.

We must first of all remind ourselves that the condition to which people were reduced by the baptism in the Jordan was, after all, an abnormal one as compared with the ordinary, every-day state of consciousness. We learned that the old initiation, for instance, was based upon the withdrawal, in a certain respect, of the etheric body, which normally is firmly joined to the physical body, and that this enabled the astral body to imprint its experiences into the etheric body. Such was the procedure in the old initiation, and an abnormal condition had to supervene in the baptism by John as well. The disciple was submerged in water, resulting in a certain separation of the etheric from the physical body; and thus he could attain to a survey of his life and become aware of the connection of this individual life with the regions of the divine-spiritual world. To make it a little clearer, we can say that when the submersion was successful it produced in the disciple the conviction: I have spirit within me; I am not just a being in this physical-material body; and this spirit within me is one with the spirit underlying all things. — And he knew in addition that the Spirit Whom he thus confronted was the same that Moses had perceived in the fire of the burning bush and in the lightning on Sinai as Jahve, as I am the I AM, as ehjeh asher ehjeh. All this was revealed to him through the baptism by John." Gospel of John: Lecture VII: The Baptism with Water and the Baptism with Fire and Spirit.
Basically what John was doing is inducing NDE in baptized persons, directly connecting to Astral world.
 
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