POST ONE OF TWO
The Christian member Clear remarked in post # 249 :
The Christian member Clear remarked in post # 249 :
POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWSHi Jayhawker soule :
I saw no reason why the historical existence of an early Christian extra-biblical tradition should have created such a stir among the Jews, who, themselves have many, many more such traditions in their own history and have received criticism for them from all quarters. I has assumed the Jews would have been more understanding of religious traditions, having suffered for their own traditions.
For example, I brought up ONE tradition from genesis that I thought would expose forum members to early christian thinking and immediately it was attacked irrationally and simply wasted time as we still came to the same inevitable conclusion.
All early Jews and Christians have traditions that may originate from mishnic sources or from other texts which were sacred to certain parties within their movements. The Jewish traditions, have no more logic, nor reason, nor more textual support for them than do the early Christian traditions, and much less than those I have mentioned. For example :
Oral and textual Traditions in Judaism
In discussing early Christian textual traditions, occasionally a forum member has complained : “That’s not in the Tanakh” or “That’s’s not in the Bible”. Because we have discussed early Christian traditions, I do not want readers to get the impression that it is only Christians who possessed traditions that reflect their early doctrines that are not fully expressed in the modern biblical text.
I thought I would offer examples of a few traditions from Jewish Midrash/Commentary that simply demonstrate the sheer number and types of Jewish traditions that exist that are only obliquely biblical, or even non-biblical. Rabbi Nosson Sherman and Rabbi Meir Zlotowitz, in their Anthology of Rabbinic writings give us many examples of such Rabbinic traditions existing within the Jewish Culture. For example, I found approximately 10 interesting Jewish midrashic traditions per chapter, in each of the first three chapters of Genesis and am only presenting 6 of the approx 30, so as to give forum readers examples. If this number holds true, then there are hundreds of similar examples of Jewish traditions that I can give, just in the pentateuch alone.
JEWISH TRADITIONS : For examples From Genesis 1-3:
1) Regarding Genisis 1:3 God said : “Let there be light, and there was light.”
The Jewish tradition associated with this (According to the Midrash) is that :
“…the original light was of an intense spiritual quality and God saw that the wicked were unworthy of enjoying it. Therefore he separated it from the rest of the universe and set it aside for the use of the righteous in the world to Come(Rashi).
Are there any jews that can tell us where this tradition exists in any detailed description inside the bible?
2)Genesis 1:26 “And God said, “Let us make Man in Our image, after Our likeness”.
The Jewish commentary (midrash) describes Moses writing Genesis and, when, Moses came to the verse “Let us make Man in our image, after our likeness.” (Which is in the plural and implies that there is more than one creator involved) Moses said to God :
“Sovereign of the Universe! Why do you thus furnish a pretext for heretics to maintain that there is a plurality of divinities?” “Write!” God replied. “Whoever wishes to err will err…Instead, let them learn from their Creator Who created all, yet when He came to create Man he took counsel with the ministering angels.(Midrash).
Are there any jews that can tell us where this conversation between Moses and God exists inside the Biblical text?
3)Genesis 1:22 : “God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, …..”
A)“God blessed them” Gen 1:20 – Rashi, in his description of this Jewish tradition relates that :
“these creatures needed a special blessing because so many of them are intentionally reduced in number –hunted down and eaten. The land animals that were created on the sixth day needed such a blessing to, but God did not confirm one on them so as not to include the serpent, which was destined to be cursed.(Rashi)
Where in the biblical literature does God describe this specific intent in his blessing on creatures of the ocean and not on land, or that he could not simply have blessed all land animals except the serpent? Such traditions seem to be complete speculation as to God’s intent without biblical basis.
B) “Be Fruitful and multiply” The Jewish midrashic tradition is this :
“Had the verse not added “and multiply”, each creature would produce only one offspring. “multiply” adds multiple births to the blessing, so each would bring forth many.” (Rashi)
The logic behind such speculative traditions is silly. To assume all creature would only have one offspring if they had not had a special commandment to “multiply” is simply silly. Where in the biblical literature does the bible expound upon and explain this as God’s intent in this blessing?
4)Gen 2:18 Hashem God said, “It is not good that man be alone; I will make him a helper corresponding to him”
Rabbis Sherman and Zlotowitz explained the Jewish tradition that Adam had the capability for reproduction without the need of Eve thusly :
“God knew that Adam needed a companion. Her purpose was not for reproduction, for Adam had been created with that function.”
Where in the biblical literature does it describe or support the Jewish tradition that Adam had both male and female characteristics where he could have had whatever sexual relationship with himself that would have allowed him to have children by himself, without a female? Is this Jewish Tradition Biblical? If so, where in the bible does it describe this tradition as a truth as opposed to the the simple, non-metaphorical description of Adam “knowing” Even, and having children in a normal manner?
5) Gen 3:4 “The serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die:”
Rashi is attributed to having added to the Midrash the tradition that the serpent actually pushed Eve against the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. Saying :
“The serpent pushed her (eve) against the tree and said : “Just as you did not die from touching it, so you will not die from eating it!”.
While I like this tradition (and have used it in prior examples) much more than the Jewish tradition where Adam can impregnate himself and have children without a female, one must ask, “Where in the Bible is this Jewish tradition described and elaborated upon?
First, the historical point is that all major Abrahamic religions have their own extra-biblical traditions which are not found in central sacred texts such as the Bible.
Secondly, IF the Jews complain about Christians having extra-biblical traditions, then the Jews must also answer the same questions, that is, Where in the bible do the Jews get these sorts of traditions. If they are not “biblical” or are “non-sensical” and “illogical” then do the Jews have any right to complain about Christian traditions that say Adam was created in the Image of God. This seems to be much more easily supported than a tradition where Adam is created with a body capable of having children all by himself.
So Jayhawker soule - tell us about these Jewish traditions and where the the biblical support for each of them is
Clear
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Post script :
Jayhawker soule :
I stopped offering examples when I thought I made the point but was actually curious about a couple of other Jewish Textual traditions that I thought you could tell us about in regards to biblical support as well.
Gen 3:8 “And it happened when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against his brother Abel and killed him.”
The Jewish tradition is described thusly : “Abel was the stronger of the two, and the expression ‘rose up’ implies that Cain had been thrown down and lay beneath Abel. But Cain begged for mercy saying : ‘We are the only sons in the world. What will you tell Father if you kill me?’ Abel was filled with compassion, and released his hold, whereupon Cain rose up and killed him.“ (Midrash)
Where do in the biblical text do the Jews get the detailed support for this tradition regarding this specific story? How did the Jewish tradition of Abel being stronger develop from the biblical narrative? Where does the biblical narrative indicate Cain was thrown down and lay beneath Abel in this Jewish tradition? Where in the biblical narrative does it tell us Abel grabbed and held Cain? Where does the narrative where Cain was begging Abel for mercy come from in this Jewish tradition?.
Gen 3:10 “…The voice of your brothers bloods [sic] cries out to Me from the ground.”
Rashi : Sanhedrin 37a describes the Jewish tradition that since the word for “Blood” is plural, this teaches that Abel “bled from many wounds. Not knowing which organs were vital to life, Cain stabbed him all over”
Where in the biblical narrative do the Jews find detailed support for this tradition?
curious on others, but ran out of time.
Clear
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