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I am Israel

Bismillah

Submit
So Jordan can invade it and thats OK (i suppose their Human)? Giving it to Palestinians is fine by me as long as its not hijacked and turned into a missile launching pad.
When did a statement that "granting citizenship to a country is not colonisation" every imply that annexation is ok?

No idea, who occupied Palestine at that particular time?
If you don't know then how can you lable it "Red Man? come now ,dont you mean the Asiatic peoples that colonized the American continent before the coming of the Europeans?" It's not colonisation if there is no one there is it? From my understanding N and S America were inaccessible and thus not inhabited prior the crossing of the bridge. What does your second point have to do with anything?

so the Israeli colonists are sub human the Arab colonists are human.
Honestly I am wondering where you are discovering these tidbits because I don't recall saying anything like that, but specifically

"Colonists are not human if they're in the Great Plains, S. Africa, or the West Bank and I could care less how many are killed while they carry out their illegal land grabs to fulfill their covenant with God."

You dont get it do you? all of us are descended from colonists
Annd this is how you justify people who steal land? You think this was acceptable to the Sioux or should be acceptable to Palestinians?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
israel is a trinity of 3 gods

is = isis
ra = osirus
el = horus

....

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Oh, WTF?! First of all, why is this in this thread, and second of all, why would we ever need to be subjected to this level of ignorance?!! I think a thousand linguists and historians of Judaism just turned over in their graves. Good Lord, just when I think I've seen it all....

In any case....

Two things (completely separate and unrelated to the above horrifying nonsense) that I'd like to note about what's been said here of late.

First off, I don't care which side of the debate one is coming down on, but I think both productiveness and sanity have been left behind when anyone starts saying that members of the other side are not human, or even not entirely human. Aggressive disagreement-- even all manner of unfortunate biases, stereotypes, and misperceptions-- can be worked on, but dehumanization inevitably leads to irreconcilable hatred and bloody destruction.

Second, regarding the unfortunate incident at Kever Yosef. Look, I think most people know that I am pretty staunchly supportive of Israel, and not shy about condemning Palestinian terrorism when it occurs. But so far, this doesn't seem to be such an incident. All the articles I've read so far seem to indicate that these Haredi guys took it into their heads to spontaneously jaunt over to Kever Yosef, without getting government clearance, without warning the PA security. One of them was related to a government minister: if they'd asked for government clearance, they would've gotten it. There was no reason not to do so. And most of the articles I've read seem to indicate that a command to halt was issued and/or warning shorts were fired. At that point, it seems to me that the onus was on the Haredi guys to turn around and not be suicidally stupid for no good reason. I'm not glad they're dead, but I also really don't see how this wasn't their own fault, and not the fault of the PA security. Just because Jews died and Palestinians pulled the trigger doesn't automatically make it terrorism, or even unjustifiable.
 

Bismillah

Submit
Hate and indocrination is the worst part of this whole thing. Both sides are so blatently arrogant and ignorant that neither side will admit it has ever done anything wrong. Sometimes the first step to peace is admiting faults.
Hi darkendless what do you think then of these colonies within Arab land, you don't think that their presence is aggravating the situation at the bare minimum?

What about the fact that in contrast the PA has pursued peace through non-violence despite these support by the Israeli government for these colonies?

Wouldn't the easiest way be to show Arabs that settlers do not want to steal their land and that all Israel really wants is security not annexation of colonies? The ball is in Israel's court, they can very easily curtail their colony funding and rate of construction no?
 

Bismillah

Submit
Like you would really accept my source as reliable.
I accept sources such as the Ha'artz and even the JP on occasion. All I am asking is for a record of the West Bank being offered citizenship.
 

HiddenDjinn

Well-Known Member
It's My Birthday!
What about the fact that in contrast the PA has pursued peace through non-violence despite these support by the Israeli government for these colonies?
Non-violence? What kool-aid have YOU been drinking? Two intifadas, shooting attacks, stabbings, bombings is non-violent? What would it take for you to consider it violent? OH, I forgot, it's only violent when Jews do it.
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
Two things (completely separate and unrelated to the above horrifying nonsense) that I'd like to note about what's been said here of late.

First off, I don't care which side of the debate one is coming down on, but I think both productiveness and sanity have been left behind when anyone starts saying that members of the other side are not human, or even not entirely human. Aggressive disagreement-- even all manner of unfortunate biases, stereotypes, and misperceptions-- can be worked on, but dehumanization inevitably leads to irreconcilable hatred and bloody destruction.
This is my agruement. To call someone sub human, or in the case of this PA General, "not normal people"(which is semantics at its best), is wrong. There is no call for it. I, for one had thought the world had gotten past calling someone a lower class of person than you are. Guess I got told.

Second, regarding the unfortunate incident at Kever Yosef. Look, I think most people know that I am pretty staunchly supportive of Israel, and not shy about condemning Palestinian terrorism when it occurs. But so far, this doesn't seem to be such an incident. All the articles I've read so far seem to indicate that these Haredi guys took it into their heads to spontaneously jaunt over to Kever Yosef, without getting government clearance, without warning the PA security. One of them was related to a government minister: if they'd asked for government clearance, they would've gotten it. There was no reason not to do so. And most of the articles I've read seem to indicate that a command to halt was issued and/or warning shorts were fired. At that point, it seems to me that the onus was on the Haredi guys to turn around and not be suicidally stupid for no good reason. I'm not glad they're dead, but I also really don't see how this wasn't their own fault, and not the fault of the PA security. Just because Jews died and Palestinians pulled the trigger doesn't automatically make it terrorism, or even unjustifiable.
Agreed. They should have asked permission. But in their eyes, they may have assumed they wouldn't get it. True not a defense, but that is the common thought among the settlers, Further, no one has even clarified whether this guy was a settler. It is assumed they were because they went to Kever Yosef. The articles I have read said they were leaving when the shots took place.
They broke the law, yes, but where does it become okay to shot someone just because they are assumed to be settlers?
 

Bismillah

Submit
Levite said:
but I think both productiveness and sanity have been left behind when anyone starts saying that members of the other side are not human, or even not entirely human.
You don't think there are things people can do that would comprise their humanity?

but dehumanization inevitably leads to irreconcilable hatred and bloody destruction.
Only if all of Israel were settlers you would have a point, settlers are not even supported by the Israeli public.

Second, regarding the unfortunate incident at Kever Yosef. Look, I think most people know that I am pretty staunchly supportive of Israel, and not shy about condemning Palestinian terrorism when it occurs. But so far, this doesn't seem to be such an incident. All the articles I've read so far seem to indicate that these Haredi guys took it into their heads to spontaneously jaunt over to Kever Yosef, without getting government clearance, without warning the PA security. One of them was related to a government minister: if they'd asked for government clearance, they would've gotten it. There was no reason not to do so. And most of the articles I've read seem to indicate that a command to halt was issued and/or warning shorts were fired. At that point, it seems to me that the onus was on the Haredi guys to turn around and not be suicidally stupid for no good reason. I'm not glad they're dead, but I also really don't see how this wasn't their own fault, and not the fault of the PA security. Just because Jews died and Palestinians pulled the trigger doesn't automatically make it terrorism, or even unjustifiable.
Thank you, it angers me when someone looks at this and states "Looks like the PA is going to start the war after all. They opened fire on a few worshippers who were leaving Joseph's Tomb. Grab the popcorn and commence bloodlust." to me it only displays a bloodthirsty warmongering attitude that defines the conflict.
 

Bismillah

Submit
They broke the law, yes, but where does it become okay to shot someone just because they are assumed to be settlers?
They weren't killed because they were presumed to be settlers. It's pretty obvious why this ended the way it did.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Agreed. They should have asked permission. But in their eyes, they may have assumed they wouldn't get it. True not a defense, but that is the common thought among the settlers, Further, no one has even clarified whether this guy was a settler. It is assumed they were because they went to Kever Yosef. The articles I have read said they were leaving when the shots took place.
They broke the law, yes, but where does it become okay to shot someone just because they are assumed to be settlers?

With all respect, Rakhel, I don't think the issue is whether they were settlers or not. And if they assumed they wouldn't get permission to go, they shouldn't have gone. This isn't about the theoretical right that Jews should be able to go to Kever Yosef-- I agree, we should be able to go-- but about the practical reality that right now, Kever Yosef is in the legal security control of the PA, which the Israeli government ceded them. In the best of all possible worlds, should people be shot for breaking the law? No, of course not. But the truth seems to be that these folks went there illegally, and either going or leaving, they failed to respond to challenges legally issues by the PA security forces, and got shot for it. And we all know that if a bunch of Palestinians got around security, showed up someplace in Israeli-controlled territory, failed to respond to challenges legally given by Tzahal, and got shot, we pro-Israel folks would all presume that Tzahal had every right to shoot, and would defend the action as such. Like I said, I'm not glad it happened-- I think it's very unfortunate-- but it seems to be a perfectly legitimate mistake to happen, given the very tense security situation in Israel and the territories. And from a Jewish point of view, the zechut (merit) one might have by going to Kever Yosef to daven (pray) is completely obviated by the principle of pikuach nefesh dochin et ha-kol (saving a life overrides nearly all other commandments). They had every reason to suppose that going without clearance was unreasonably dangerous to life and limb; there was no overwhelming positive commandment that they had to go, especially not then and under those circumstances: their clear duty was not to go. They are, halakhically, at fault for their own demise.

You don't think there are things people can do that would comprise their humanity?

No. I think there are things that human beings can do that are terrible, awful, inexcusable things. But a human being is a human being. And in some ways, not only is it productive of yet more hatred and bloodshed to deny the humanity of others, but it is counterproductive to ourselves: for if we say that "they" do what "they" do because "they" are not human, then that implicitly makes okay anything that "we" do because "we" are humans while "they" are not.

Only if all of Israel were settlers you would have a point, settlers are not even supported by the Israeli public.

I think that dehumanizing any faction or element of the other side in a debate is counterproductive and generative only of irreconcilable hatred and pointless bloodshed.
 

kai

ragamuffin
When did a statement that "granting citizenship to a country is not colonisation" every imply that annexation is ok?

If you don't know then how can you lable it "R[/COLOR]ed Man? come now ,dont you mean the Asiatic peoples that colonized the American continent before the coming of the Europeans?" It's not colonisation if there is no one there is it? From my understanding N and S America were inaccessible and thus not inhabited prior the crossing of the bridge. What does your second point have to do with anything?

Honestly I am wondering where you are discovering these tidbits because I don't recall saying anything like that, but specifically

"Colonists are not human if they're in the Great Plains, S. Africa, or the West Bank and I could care less how many are killed while they carry out their illegal land grabs to fulfill their covenant with God."

Annd this is how you justify people who steal land? You think this was acceptable to the Sioux or should be acceptable to Palestinians?



i am trying to point out that colonists are human always have been always will be. I am not justifying anything accept that fact. I am sure the argument that they were in some way lesser human was used against the Sioux.
 
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Bismillah

Submit
No. I think there are things that human beings can do that are terrible, awful, inexcusable things. But a human being is a human being. And in some ways, not only is it productive of yet more hatred and bloodshed to deny the humanity of others, but it is counterproductive to ourselves: for if we say that "they" do what "they" do because "they" are not human, then that implicitly makes okay anything that "we" do because "we" are humans while "they" are not.
Ok I accept that.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
the natives in america have been in captivity how long?
and israel was to be captive how long?
and babylion how long ?
check mthe numbers.
i find no inequality
everybody has their moment of glory and sorrow

Agreed mankind doesnt care enough about babylions. :(

i-want-one.jpg


awwwwwwwww



Colonists are not human if they're in the Great Plains, S. Africa, or the West Bank and I could care less how many are killed while they carry out their illegal land grabs to fulfill their covenant with God.

So much blabla from someone sitting in his comfy home in Arizona. Why dont you go join the fight? I hear them jews are trying to destroy the temple mount again. :rolleyes:
 

Bismillah

Submit
Why dont you go join the fight? I hear them jews are trying to destroy the temple mount again
Yeah it is funny provoking people to commit acts of terrorism right? RIGHT?

You are sickening.
 
Yes it seems the actions of the Hasidim involved was reckless to say the least , I am interested in confirmation of this "response" where the Israelis killed the unarmed men in their beds. But i dont think i will because the article you posted Spinks is dated Sunday, December 27th 2009, 4:00 AM Lol:)



The IDF refused to describe the incident as an attack. A senior officer at Central Command said that "this was a problem in communication between the two sides. The Bratslav Hasidim broke through the checkpoint and the officers fired in the air first. They didn't have to continue shooting at them, but we can't say there was a premeditated attempt to harm them."


Palestinian Authority to probe shooting death of Israeli in Nablus - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
Oh LOL sorry my mistake ..... the 2009 article was one of the related articles linked in the 2011 article, and it said it was Israel's response to "the fatal shooting of an Isreali", honest mistake on my part .... :facepalm:

Anyway it seems now that we have the facts straight (I hope) it's not clear at all that the incident yosi cited shows "bloodlust" coming from anyone. Even the IDF concedes this (by refusing to call it an "attack").
 
perhaps one would like to explain why the PA brigadier general Adnan Damir said, and I quote,"Jewish settlers are not noramal people and therefore there is no need to apologize for the murder of a Jew who prayed at Kever Yosef this morning." He further denied that there was even PA police involved.

Embarrassed, my ***.

PA Spokesman After Murder at Kever Yosef: Israeli Settlers Are “Not Normal People” » Matzav.com - The Online Voice of Torah Jewry
You did not quote him accurately. He did not say: "Jewish settlers are not noramal people and therefore there is no need to apologize for the murder of a Jew who prayed at Kever Yosef this morning."

According to your article: Asked if the PA will apologize for the murder of Ben Yosef Livnat, he answered, “You know that settlers are not normal people. Every day, they shoot at innocent Arabs.”

So when he is quoted accurately, and in context, we see he is saying that the settlers shoot at innocent Arabs, something normal people do not do. That's why settlers have to pass through police checkpoints when traveling on Palestinian territory. When people ram through those checkpoints in three cars, policemen fire their weapons and he sees no reason to apologize for that.

His statement is certainly hawkish and I do not approve of it.

However, it's ridiculous to exaggerate so much and imply he's saying something racist. And it's a little disingenuous for people who are so obviously trying to bash the Palestinian side, to feign such incredible shock for his remarks, as if these remarks bear no comparison to similar things said by Isreali military officials. Please don't tell me Isreali military officials have never made similar statements: "We don't apologize, because the IDF soldiers were guarding a checkpoint, and Palestinians are all basically terrorists".
 
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David69

Angel Of The North
It's not a matter of being higher than anyone. It's a matter of it being our country. And whatever we can say with 20/20 hindsight about what might have been better choices in 1967, or 1948, this is how it is now. And while we can talk about ceding the Palestinians some land, and we can talk about other forms of compensation, we can't talk about ceding them so much of our country that Israel no longer exists. Or about passively ceding them so much power over Israel that it's only a matter of time before Israel ceases to exist. Or ceding them land and or resources in such a way that the future security of Israel is permanently undermined.

Think of it this way: if the Creoles of Louisiana rose up in arms against the United States, and demanded, as the rightful descendants of the French and Spanish who were here before Louisiana was American, that America return the Louisiana Purchase to them, there might be some historical justification for it (despite the fact that they themselves were not the original inhabitants of the land). But while, if their cause put ceaseless pressure on the US, and the rest of the world united to condemn the US for not giving in to their demands, the United States might be forced eventually to cede them parts of the Gulf Coast, they would never cede the entirety of the Louisiana Purchase, to cede land in such a way as to give up indispensible resources or to cause a permanent security breach from a future Creole state into the USA.

And, for the record, while Israel's economy is doing quite well, it does not have "loads" of money. Also for the record, the Jews did not buy Israel from Britain. When the British took over the land from the defunct Ottoman Empire, many Jewish organizations had already purchased large tracts of land from Turks and from native Arab landowners. Some more was purchased from British landowners after the Mandate began, but the political foundation for Jewish statehood in British Palestine was the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which had nothing to do with finances, and everything to do with the political lobbying of prominent British Jews in the Zionist movement.
I did actually at first read that the british Handed over the land, just got me thinking, did they really hand it over for free! I hoped it was a gesture of good will!
I beleive the strip should belong to the jewish nation!!! Palastinians should be gratefull they got what they have!
Whats the zionist movement? are they the chaff or the wheat?

Cheers
David
 
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