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What is a moderate Muslim?

Abu Rashid

Active Member
They support Iran's theocratic ideology and they share a common faith.

Those are coincidences, not reasons to consider them a proxy.

They are in fact one point, since theocracy is an intrinsic part of Islam, and is it really that strange they might share the same common faith?

Are all Christian countries that purchase weapons from the U.S proxies?

It outright supports Iran in getting rid of Israel

Which Muslim doesn't?

Even the former President of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Khatami said that he and Iran support them.

Supporting doesn't amount to them being a proxy.

Besides, doesn't the USA giving Israel billions of dollars and weapons make Israel a proxy of Western power in your eyes?

Israel is much more than a proxy. It's an extension of the West. But this is more to do with how Israel was established (completely by Western actions) rather than the fact they continue to arm them.
 

Abu Rashid

Active Member
I believe the Middle East will keep going downhill, since the abolition of the Caliphate, until the Muslims in Arab countries have something akin to the Rennisceince in Christian Europe. When they finally start to progress and move forward like everybody else in the world

Attempting to transpose the European/Christian experience and chain of events onto the Islamic world is a serious mistake. The situations are worlds apart, and their best outcomes require very different solutions.

Christianity was the cause of European stagnation, whilst in the Islamic world, lack of Islam was the cause of stagnation. Whilst Europeans clung to Christianity, they were backwards and declined. Whilst Muslims clung to Islam they were the leaders of the known world, advanced and developed. When Europeans fell away from Christianity, they advanced and developed, when Muslims fell away from Islam they stagnated and declined. This is well documented historical fact.

So the solution for Muslims is not a "renaissance", since Islam does not contain thoughts that hinder civilisational progress (this is proven already). The solution is a revival of and return to Islam, and this is what the Muslims are heading towards. The leaders of the Muslim world, are not in step with this, they are merely puppets of the colonialists who put them there, who drew up the countries in the Sykes-Picot conference. They will be cast aside in the Islamic revival, and this is what the West fears since it means they will lose control over the region, hence the intense focus on the Muslim world, and the War on Islam (known by it's more politically correct title 'War on terror').
 

Abu Rashid

Active Member
IMO wherever the Muslim Brotherhood are present you won't find many moderate Muslims

Do you even know who the MB are? Do you even know anything about them? They are actually usually the ones known as moderates. They are usually the ones who are favoured by Western governments, because of their focus on education, instead of activism. Only in the Muslim world are they considered a threat, and even then only in Egypt.

My guess is you read an article about them on some anti-Islamic website, and you base your whole opinion on that.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Attempting to transpose the European/Christian experience and chain of events onto the Islamic world is a serious mistake. The situations are worlds apart, and their best outcomes require very different solutions.

Christianity was the cause of European stagnation, whilst in the Islamic world, lack of Islam was the cause of stagnation. Whilst Europeans clung to Christianity, they were backwards and declined. Whilst Muslims clung to Islam they were the leaders of the known world, advanced and developed. When Europeans fell away from Christianity, they advanced and developed, when Muslims fell away from Islam they stagnated and declined. This is well documented historical fact.

So the solution for Muslims is not a "renaissance", since Islam does not contain thoughts that hinder civilisational progress (this is proven already). The solution is a revival of and return to Islam, and this is what the Muslims are heading towards. The leaders of the Muslim world, are not in step with this, they are merely puppets of the colonialists who put them there, who drew up the countries in the Sykes-Picot conference. They will be cast aside in the Islamic revival, and this is what the West fears since it means they will lose control over the region, hence the intense focus on the Muslim world, and the War on Islam (known by it's more politically correct title 'War on terror').

Thats quite reminicent of Wahab Al Banna and Qutb
 

Abu Rashid

Active Member
Thats quite reminicent of Abdul'Wahab, Al Banna and Qutb

Right, since all 3 were prominent Islamic thinkers.

Can you dispute the historicity of it? Or just happy to try and attach it to people you think tarnish the idea?
 

Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
Shia Islam,



"You know" a lot less than "you think you do".

So You claim that:

K<I;
Where:

k=What I actually know
I = What I think I Know.

That implies that yout think you Know both K and I.

And as K and I are related to me personally, you can't claim that you know them based on what I have posted, as what I don't post is what mainly decide on the values of K, and I.

&#1616;Allah SWT has said in the Quran:
"...And thou shalt know them by the burden of their talk..."

That's why, I ignored your previous writings.
And days shall prove what I said.
 
Well on the one hand you have Muslims who say "I believe in Allah and I think the Koran is the literal word of Allah, and I'm willing to kill people to prove it."

On the other hand you have the secular community who believes that there's not a God, and that religion isn't really important.

To be truly moderate you should meet the other side in the middle. I guess a true moderate Muslim would have to be an agnostic. Someone who values all religions equally and is willing to say without reservation that all paths to heaven are equally correct.
 

kai

ragamuffin
Well on the one hand you have Muslims who say "I believe in Allah and I think the Koran is the literal word of Allah, and I'm willing to kill people to prove it."

On the other hand you have the secular community who believes that there's not a God, and that religion isn't really important.

To be truly moderate you should meet the other side in the middle. I guess a true moderate Muslim would have to be an agnostic.
Someone who values all religions equally and is willing to say without reservation that all paths to heaven are equally correct.[/
quote]


that would make him a non muslim
 

Hyperborean

Cultural Conservative
Well on the one hand you have Muslims who say "I believe in Allah and I think the Koran is the literal word of Allah, and I'm willing to kill people to prove it."

On the other hand you have the secular community who believes that there's not a God, and that religion isn't really important.

To be truly moderate you should meet the other side in the middle. I guess a true moderate Muslim would have to be an agnostic.

Agnostics are agnostics, whilst Muslims are Muslims and Christians are Christians, and so on. You would never ask a Jew to be a Christian, or a Buddhist to be a Muslim, so why do you think that Muslims should be agnostics in order to be "moderate"?

It is the fact that you believe something to be more true than something else, that you choose to believe it in the first place. Just as a Communist might feel that communism is superior to capitalism is what makes him a communist, or how a Republican believes that his party's platform is better than that of the Democrats makes him a Republican.
 
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England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Right, since all 3 were prominent Islamic thinkers.

Can you dispute the historicity of it? Or just happy to try and attach it to people you think tarnish the idea?

IMO going back 1400 years will not cure anything,look at anywhere revival has taken place its a Human rights disaster.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
"By the middle of the 1930's the Kurds had launched three different revolts against British and Iraqi forces"

Well look at that. Against British forces, and even Iraqi forces really means "The little Arab-puppet kingdom the British setup there".



Islamic political power ceased to exist officially in 1924 (with the abolition of the Caliphate). What the Arab puppets did after that really cannot be pinned on Islam or Muslims. They are simply playing games at the behest of those who control them. None of them holds any actual independant power, they do as they're told.



Of course it troubles me, that's why I despise the Western meddling there. Since all of it is a result of that meddling. As I pointed out above. Apart from the Libya-Egypt border dispute you mentioned, the rest of those conflicts are quite clearly traceable to Western meddling in the region.
Sorry, what was I thinking. to imply that the Muslims might actually have a shred of thought or action of their own. obviously everything from the weather, to the price of tomatoes in the local Souk is rooted in a western conspiracy. obviously the Muslims are still insignificent, their politics are meaningless. seems like Edward Said's concept of Orientalism has as great grip on Muslims themselves as he claimed it did.
Obviously, Muslims don't hurt each other unless it is ordained by western overlords.
It must be a terrifying and inconvenient life thinking that every detail in the fabric of your society is manipulated by Zionists.
 

JMorris

Democratic Socialist
that would make him a non muslim

agreed.

my time on RF has taught me that moderate muslims are muslims that, while not personally involved themselves, sympathize with extremists & islamic inspired murder (e.g. the execution of homosexuals).

imo, muslims who do not sympathize with extremists & islamic inspired murder would be more aptly described as liberal muslims.
 

Abu Rashid

Active Member
Perhaps Shaun is coming from a Jewish perspective where religion is defined by ethnicity, not by beliefs. In Islam, it doesn't matter what your ethnicity is, if you cease believing in God or the Qur'an as being the literal word of God, you cease being a Muslim. Plain and simple.
 

Abu Rashid

Active Member
ply that the Muslims might actually have a shred of thought or action of their own

Actually it's pretty much correct. Leaders of Muslim countries have little or no thought or action of their own. They just do as their told, end of story. Muslim citizens of those countries don't really oppose it, as they fear the oppression that ensues for anyone who speaks against the government. Tell me why Egypt is the second biggest recipient of U.S aid? Tell me why Abdullah and before him Fahd were such great friends of the U.S? why did they house U.S troops to come and slaughter Muslims? Was it because they think for themselveS? Or because they're just mindless lackeys?

The reality speaks for itself. The discerning ones amongst us listen.
 

Abu Rashid

Active Member
EML,

IMO going back 1400 years will not cure anything,look at anywhere revival has taken place its a Human rights disaster.

Islamic revival has yet to take off anywhere. I'm sure you'll bring Iran, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan and claim these are bastions of Islam. They are not.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
EML,,



Islamic revival has yet to take off anywhere. I'm sure you'll bring Iran, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan and claim these are bastions of Islam. They are not.

They believe it is,for example Wahab perhaps started the ball rolling with this revival and in Saudi we see Wahabism where we also see some pretty awful things happening to people.

Wherever religion holds sway in the world there will be injustice,my own Countrys history is stained by religion IE the Catholic and Protestant Church until we became Secular, which ,although not perfect is better for everybody.
 

Abu Rashid

Active Member
If Sheikh Muhammad bin Abdul'Wahab were alive today, he'd probably be leading a rebellion against the Saudi regime. He quite clearly considered anyone who made alliances with those at war with Muslims to be outside oft he fold of Islam. Likewise anyone who rules by other than pure Shari'ah to be outside the fold.

Saudi Arabia is probably the most unIslamic place on this earth. Everything about their country is unIslamic, except for the decorations. Decorations do not an Islamic country make. They can wear long white flowing robes, and make Friday a holiday, and cut the hands of [poor] thieves, doesn't make them Islamic. It's all pure window dressings.

Wherever religion holds sway in the world there will be injustice,my own Countrys history is stained by religion IE the Catholic and Protestant...

You cannot superimpose your country's experience onto all others and claim it's the same all round. When Islam actually did rule, the Islamic lands were very different. Today Islam simply doesn't rule. You only say it does, because you perceive decorations to equal the real thing, they do not.

The important points of Islam are absent from them. Most notably the justice, which Islam is adamant about. Those countries are bastions of corruption and nepotism, not of justice and fairness as Islam is about. Read up on some of the history of Muhammad's (pbuh) rule, and the rule of the Khulafa after him. Those countries today are nothing at all to do with what Muhammad (pbuh) brought.
 

Ciscokid

Well-Known Member
What is a moderate Muslim?
Here in Australia we hear that no all of then are fanatical and bent on convert or kill, that their good religion has been taken away from them and transform, what are they doing to reclaimed?


Moderate Muslim is a Muslim that doesn't shoot to kill.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I will define moderate Muslim as I practiced Islam when I was a Muslim. A moderate Muslim is one who believes that Islam is the religion of Allah, but that it doesn't mean it doesn't have human elements and failings. The history of Islam will show that's far from true. Also, a moderate doesn't necessarily see the Quran as entirely literal. I will stress here as I do to the fundamentalist Christian who wants to take the Bible entirely literally, not literal doesn't mean not true. Also moderates may reject some hadiths that they feel are not legitimate, and the opinions of some scholars they don't agree with. That is the moderate's right to do so. In Islam exists a concept called Ithijad, the right of every individual Muslim to use god-given logic and reason to apply the faith to their lives personally. Now give you, moderates do get bashed a lot by the more Conservative Muslims. I got bashed almost constantly by Sunnis, especially Wahabis/Salafis, but other Shias never judged me.
 
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