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Ruining Humanity

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't see why you make an exception for carbon emissions. That's simply an economic choice, and right now, it seems money is more important to a lot of people than a future for our species (including their offspring). As the inevitable progresses, we'll see whether that changes, and if it does, if it will be in time.

You misunderstood me. I'm not making an exception for it, only suggesting that, unlike air and water pollutants, which Western societies seem to be making headway on, carbon emissions is still an area where they are continuing to lose ground. And as you say, its not a Western religious thing that we have yet to get a handle on carbon emissions, but economic.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
As for ecology, we have the issue of global warming, but the full impact of that will be in the future. I've seen big improvements in air and water quality over my lifetime. Do you consider the current state of the global ecology as destroyed since you reference the destruction we see at hand?

Global warming is one symptom of ecological overshoot. We humans are depleting the planet's resources in unsustainable ways. Two obvious examples are topsoil and freshwater aquifers. Those are both essential, and we've consumed most of both of them.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Global warming is one symptom of ecological overshoot. We humans are depleting the planet's resources in unsustainable ways. Two obvious examples are topsoil and freshwater aquifers. Those are both essential, and we've consumed most of both of them.

I suppose, then, the greatest ecological threat is an ever increasing human population. Might unwillingness to manage and control population growth be a function of Western Judeo/Christian culture, and therefore that culture is responsible for the projected continuation of environmental degradation? Or is it still an economic problem as Western economies are built on a model of continual growth and changing that paradigm will have dramatic economic consequences?
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Everything teaches, and nothing teaches. That, too, depends on the person learning, or not learning.

Really? You can learn how to use a hammer, it does not teach you how to use it.

Religion on the other hand is with with mock laws and instructions that teach followers of that religion.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Really? You can learn how to use a hammer, it does not teach you how to use it.
In fact, it does. Ask someone that has used one regularly for a while.
Religion on the other hand is with with mock laws and instructions that teach followers of that religion.
Religions can't teach what they can't know. Stop giving them credit that they don't deserve just so you can turn them into the 'big boogerman'.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
In fact, it does. Ask someone that has used one regularly for a while.

Religions can't teach what they can't know. Stop giving them credit that they don't deserve just so you can turn them into the 'big boogerman'.

One learns how to use a hammer, stop giving it intelligence it doesn't possess

Sheesh, ever heard of the Bible, the Qur'an, the Tanakh?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Is Religion and Spirituality somehow to blame for the downfall of society?

The ecological and moral destruction that we see at hand?

Is religion and spirituality a symptom? Or is it a cure for human ills?
Just looking at the title, Hammer, when was humanity not ruined?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I don't think so. I think people are guilty for their own actions. And one reason for the downfall is that people have rejected good teachings religions have, like for example don't murder, steal, lie...
Speaking of which, I was thinking of different genealogical differences among humans. For instance many people figure when they see a person with certain characteristics they or their close enough forebears originate in a particular place.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I suppose, then, the greatest ecological threat is an ever increasing human population. Might unwillingness to manage and control population growth be a function of Western Judeo/Christian culture, and therefore that culture is responsible for the projected continuation of environmental degradation? Or is it still an economic problem as Western economies are built on a model of continual growth and changing that paradigm will have dramatic economic consequences?

Yes, overpopulation is a critical problem. What I hear over and over again is that this is an issue for most cultures. And I hear that the single best thing we can do to curb the population is to educate women and girls and give them safe access to free birth control.

Of course, in many cultures - sadly - both of these remedies are quite controversial :(

And yes to the economic continual growth myth. We're all told - we've had it drummed into us throughout our lives - that economies must always grow to be healthy. This idea helps the oligarchs for sure. But it turns out that it's a myth. There are ways to construct economies (where we can still reward invention and innovation), without the need for growth. Hooray.

One important aspect of economics to understand, is that they all (almost all), assume at a foundational level that humans are driven by the lowest forms of motivation: variations on extrinsic "carrot and stick" motivation. While extrinsic motivation is effective, it's got a lot of downsides. Luckily, humans also respond well to "better" forms of motivation, intrinsic motivation, that help create more effective, less greedy, more empathetic people. Hooray again.

So, educate women, and focus on intrinsic motivation - how hard could that be? ;)
 
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Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
One learns how to use a hammer, stop giving it intelligence it doesn't possess

Sheesh, ever heard of the Bible, the Qur'an, the Tanakh?
Quran claims to be a reminder and Khidr (a) tells Musa (a) "how can you have patience over what has not come to you it's information?".
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Is Religion and Spirituality somehow to blame for the downfall of society? The ecological and moral destruction that we see at hand?
Abrahamic monotheism, not all religion, which is antithetical to natural spiritualty, or a sense of belonging and connection to nature which is viewed as a sacred metaphorical mother. Look at what Abrahamic theology does to that. It extracts the sacred from nature and exports it outside of nature to an imagined ghost that has no respect for nature or mankind and which issues commands and threats and intends to destroy the universe. How are you not going to consider nature a trash can given that?

Here's some of the fallout from that which had found its way into government:
  • "We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand" - James Watt, Secretary of the Interior under Reagan (note his position and responsibilities)
  • "My point is, God's still up there. The arrogance of people to think that we, human beings, would be able to change what He is doing in the climate is to me outrageous." - Sen. Inhofe, R-Okla
  • "The Earth will end only when God declares it's time to be over. Man will not destroy this Earth." - Rep John Shimkus, R-Ill.
Jesus tells them to “love your enemy.”
Not good advice.

Also, love in Christianity is centered around blood sacrifice, suffering, and atonement. The quintessential example of love is a crucifixion. Another bad example of love from Christianity is what's called loving the sinner while hating his sins. That's just plain hating the "sinner" as we see with the response to LGBTQ+ needs and interests. They call that love. Both sides in the Israeli conflict see themselves as loving a god that loves them, and look at how that manifests.
one reason for the downfall is that people have rejected good teachings religions have, like for example don't murder, steal, lie
Christianity has failed to teach those values to its adherents, who do all of those things as much or more than non-Christians. All of the religions say that they have the answers if only people would listen as if that's the fault of the people and not of the religion.

Humanists embody those principles. Who's arguing for tolerance and enabling people to pursue happiness as they understand it by creating social and economic opportunity for the greatest number through government? That's love, not this other thing I described above. Love manifests as protection, sharing resources, and good will for others. Simply telling people to love one another or don't steal from one another is impotent. Love is taught by example, not sermons.

Look at how the white evangelicals overwhelmingly supported Trump. That's a failed moral program. Humanists knew better. They're the ones now called Trump haters, but more accurately, they hate hate as it should be.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
One learns how to use a hammer, stop giving it intelligence it doesn't possess
One learns how to use religion, too. Just like a hammer: through using it. Religions can't teach, they can only propose and admonish. One has to use these to learn what works for them and what doesn't. And that depends on what they want to do with it.

Religions don't "teach people", they enable them. Just like any other set of tools.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
One learns how to use religion, too. Just like a hammer: through using it. Religions can't teach, they can only propose and admonish. One has to use these to learn what works for them and what doesn't. And that depends on what they want to do with it.

Religions don't "teach people", they enable them. Just like any other set of tools.

Religious leaders teach (or indoctrinate) from their holy book. Many people read their holy book and accept what it teaches them without question.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Is Religion and Spirituality somehow to blame for the downfall of society?
Think of the state of world politics as analogous to weather. There are cycles and disturbances.

What causes political problems are the laziness, mental problems and neurosis we all have, each in different proportions. Our brains have a limited supply of energy generated by the basil ganglia. We are each born as blank slates lacking identities. Every time a person is born we must learn everything, and we have many failures. This insures there will always be political turbulence.

In the West (the society that is allegedly in downfall), religion contributes the higher ideal of forgiveness; but it has been failing to contribute much of anything else. Its people (not everyone but people overall) cannot keep up with technological change and have been preaching against technology and trying (and failing) to suppress technology. Technology has been associated with evil at every stage of changes introduced. Western religion seems to be mostly in denial. "We were never wrong. God wouldn't let us be wrong." They also have failed to grapple efficiently (quickly) with social ills and have been divided over how to deal with social problems. Therefore religion currently is in a slump.

Other religions have also been struggling with technology, not only western; but we are talking about western society.
The ecological and moral destruction that we see at hand?
Technology is to blame for ecological destruction. Imagine what would have happened had the ancient Egyptians had access to nylon and kevlar: We'd all be floating in an ocean of each Pharaoh's trash. What if the ancient Chinese emperors had discovered viruses? What if the junglers of S. America had, in 12th century C.E. learned to manipulate DNA? Yet we suppose ourselves responsible enough to handle all of these. What will our own legacy be?

Is religion and spirituality a symptom? Or is it a cure for human ills?
Human beings are full of hypocrisy. It is our natural state. You can view religion as a force which arises to try and mitigate the damage but which sometimes co-opts the hypocrisy. We'll always be hypocritical for the foreseeable next century.

If we weren't hypocritical how could we survive? Tell me that.
 
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