Why is this board so obsessed with restrooms?

[Shadow Wolf]

The reality is this is mostly political nonsense and largely a spinoff of DeSantis' "culture wars" campaign. I've been in unisex bathrooms in Quebec and in Europe, and I actually do believe this is the best way to go [pun unintended, but...].

It was basically that way where I larped. They were all individual stalls in the bathrooms so it wasn't an issue. People did their thing. Other than that the segregation of rooming in the cabinets was self imposed and not rigidly by sex but "the guys" cabin (which included several women) was rowdy until everyone was in bed and stank while "the girls" (which included a few guys) was quieter, had more conversations on a personal level, and it didn't stink.
But the cabins only had one bathroom. It just wasn't a problem, although a few were more shy about it than others.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The men who want to invade women's spaces should raise a huge red flag, and yes, that is why we fight for single sex spaces.

Do you know some gay guys go to Pure Romance parties?

 

[BlueIslandGirl]

It was basically that way where I larped. They were all individual stalls in the bathrooms so it wasn't an issue. People did their thing. Other than that the segregation of rooming in the cabinets was self imposed and not rigidly by sex but "the guys" cabin (which included several women) was rowdy until everyone was in bed and stank while "the girls" (which included a few guys) was quieter, had more conversations on a personal level, and it didn't stink.
But the cabins only had one bathroom. It just wasn't a problem, although a few were more shy about it than others.

If you include the women who have been sexually assaulted, no matter where that happened, perhaps you can understand why shared bathrooms might make those women feel especially uncomfortable. And as @icehorse said, this is about more than just bathrooms; it's about other single sex spaces where women are incredibly vulnerable.

Women miscarry in bathrooms, get their period in bathrooms, and have, frequently, used single sex bathrooms as a way to get away from men who are pestering them. Men do not see these things because men do not have these problems. So of course, from a male perspective, unisex bathrooms are fine. (Although I'd still argue that many men would prefer to have men-only bathrooms for privacy and dignity). There are reams of safeguarding and safety rules written for places like public transportation hubs on how best to position and layout bathrooms for maximum safety for women because putting bathrooms in places where men can easily assault women leads to.... you guessed it.... men assaulting women. To intentionally remove safeguarding for the sake of "unisex" is a massive step backwards in my opinion.

 

[BlueIslandGirl]

And just add, a quick stat from the UK:

"There were 134 reports of sexual assault in changing rooms over the two year period 2017 to 2018. Of these, 120 took place in gender-neutral changing rooms compared to just 14 in single-sex changing areas."

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If you include the women who have been sexually assaulted, no matter where that happened, perhaps you can understand why shared bathrooms might make those women feel especially uncomfortable. And as @icehorse said, this is about more than just bathrooms; it's about other single sex spaces where women are incredibly vulnerable.

Women miscarry in bathrooms, get their period in bathrooms, and have, frequently, used single sex bathrooms as a way to get away from men who are pestering them. Men do not see these things because men do not have these problems. So of course, from a male perspective, unisex bathrooms are fine. (Although I'd still argue that many men would prefer to have men-only bathrooms for privacy and dignity). There are reams of safeguarding and safety rules written for places like public transportation hubs on how best to position and layout bathrooms for maximum safety for women because putting bathrooms in places where men can easily assault women leads to.... you guessed it.... men assaulting women. To intentionally remove safeguarding for the sake of "unisex" is a massive step backwards in my opinion.

I just gave an example where women have been OK with it. That definitely does not count as a male perspective.
Others have given examples of cultures at large. Nothing bad is happening.

 

[icehorse]

And the amount of sexual assault that happens in public restrooms is tiny compared to homes and offices. The same people who are like 'how dare we change things for a small percentage of people who are trans' are also advocating changing things for a tiny percentage of sexual assault cases.

This BS 'I'm here to protect women by regulating how femine people in women's bathrooms should appear' (already a deeply sexist take) is a lot easier than genuinely looking at the causes of rape culture.

This has to be added to the "most fallacy arguments in a short post" hall of fame! :O

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This has to be added to the "most fallacy arguments in a short post" hall of fame! :O

You probably want to make sure the grammar amd tense conjugations all agree and line up before making a statement about someone else's fallacious arguments.
Nothing worse than saying someone landed in a pile of crap while yourself plant your face firmly into it.

 

[metis]

As for your personal experience, I say with all sincerity, who cares? I've talked with many women who do NOT believe this is the best way to go. And of course, my argument is not limited to rest rooms, it's a broader category called "women's safe spaces". So I'm also arguing about locker rooms, safe houses, shelters and such.

Then tell them to wrap themselves in bubble wrap and never leave their home.

I lock doors at our home 24/7, plus we have security doors, motion detector lights, etc. I say this because I'm not worried about me but about my wife, but also about our kids when they lived here. I taught our kids and grandkids about self-defense, but mostly in a preventative approach, such as where not to park your car, etc.

My point is that I do care about security, which is why I've taken all these precautions and more not mentioned over the years. But there's a point whereas the BS comes in, especially on topics like this that have been excessively politicized especially by DeSantis and many other Pubs.

Unisex bathrooms can be more secure as you never know who will walk in next, as most I've been in have no locks on the doors. There's your security right there.

End of discussion.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If it is any consolation, Marcus, the Offensive tranny, say almost exactly the same thing. These new exotic permutations are not genuinely trans but are simply going wild with their so-called "gender expression".

We used to keep such sorts separated, such as drag queens and cross dressers. And it wasn't even that long ago when we weren't lumped together, back when we used to say things like tomboy. It wasn't all better then (like an unrealistic emphasis placed on passing), but I do think it was better when we weren't lumped with drag queens. That's a performance art. That's entirely different, potentially even offensive depending on context to suggest trans people who go through the stressors of transitioning and remegated to a minority status is an act.

 

[icehorse]

@metis - your personal stance is clear. Let me know when women in general agree with you.

 

[icehorse]

You probably want to make sure the grammar amd tense conjugations all agree and line up before making a statement about someone else's fallacious arguments.
Nothing worse than saying someone landed in a pile of crap while yourself plant your face firmly into it.

oh please, correct my grammar, because clearly I was aiming for grammatical correctness (not)

 

[YmirGF]

I don't think anyone is debating whether it's real or not. I think the point of contention is whether or not it actually presents any kind of actual tangible threat to society or if it's just one of the other countless subcultures that nobody in the real world knows or cares about like long furbies or snape wives on Tumblr. So what if there are strange people online? They don't seem to be hurting or advocating to hurt anyone. I'll take that over another lunatic planning a mass shooting any day

My point for bringing it up was to show there are folks who are deliberately pushing the envelope

We used to keep such sorts separated, such as drag queens and cross dressers. And it wasn't even that long ago when we weren't lumped together, back when we used to say things like tomboy. It wasn't all better then (like an unrealistic emphasis placed on passing), but I do think it was better when we weren't lumped with drag queens. That's a performance art. That's entirely different, potentially even offensive depending on context to suggest trans people who go through the stressors of transitioning and remegated to a minority status is an act.

Thank you, for this @Shadow Wolf

This is also why I brought up the GenderF_c_ thing because these folks are not helping the trans movement an iota, and causing considerable confusion.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

oh please, correct my grammar, because clearly I was aiming for grammatical correctness (not)

Still, if you're going to make those statements you really need to make sure you don't leave yourself mountainside wide open for ridicule. Amd that your own statements are entirely logically valid, but I don't feel like wasting the time to review that with you.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This is also why I brought up the GenderF_c_ thing because these folks are not helping the trans movement an iota, and causing considerable confusion.

I'm not entirely sure. It has brought to the forefront the discussion of what it means to be a man and woman, something we haven't really considered since the days of needing a herd of kids just to hope a few survive into adulthood. Like how some tie it to genitalia and reproduction. But that leaves a lot of people who unfairly struggle with that (such losing the penis and or testicles through an accident or disease) because there's still a shame attached to being a eunucu. Most people today just say mind your own business, call him a guy, but we still have this ancient and dated and useless idea that haunts him.
Or JK Rowling. I don't find what she said to be tramsphobic, I found it to be misogynist because she defined women by the ability to reproduce. But women who are born infertile are and will never menstrate are still women.
There is some harm done now, but I think in the long run it will work out for the better because we're finally having these conversations that have been put off for far too long.

 

[YmirGF]

I'm not entirely sure. It has brought to the forefront the discussion of what it means to be a man and woman, something we haven't really considered since the days of needing a herd of kids just to hope a few survive into adulthood. Like how some tie it to genitalia and reproduction. But that leaves a lot of people who unfairly struggle with that (such losing the penis and or testicles through an accident or disease) because there's still a shame attached to being a eunucu. Most people today just say mind your own business, call him a guy, but we still have this ancient and dated and useless idea that haunts him.
Or JK Rowling. I don't find what she said to be tramsphobic, I found it to be misogynist because she defined women by the ability to reproduce. But women who are born infertile are and will never menstrate are still women.
There is some harm done now, but I think in the long run it will work out for the better because we're finally having these conversations that have been put off for far too long.

I really, really like your response. I think we do need to have a conversation about what it means to be a man or woman so that everyone can happily fit in. The reality is that, what, 99.5% of the human population is CIS? Gender is generally not much of an issue for the vast majority of people on the planet. So, forgive those of us who are slow to come to the Gender Identity party.

This is from Statistics Canada:

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I really, really like your response. I think we do need to have a conversation about what it means to be a man or woman so that everyone can happily fit in. The reality is that, what, 99.5% of the human population is CIS? Gender is generally not much of an issue for the vast majority of people on the planet. So, forgive those of us who are slow to come to the Gender Identity party.

This is from Statistics Canada:

It's not an issue for most, but lots of issues for many people won't be an issue for most. This is why I tend to mention things like disease and accidents, things that can shatter perceptions of sex and gender even for cis people. Like women with various conditions that give them visually noticeable facial hair amd decide to stop shaving/waxing/whatever. They're up at the top of those I respect and admire and they've got bigger balls than me.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

@metis - your personal stance is clear. Let me know when women in general agree with you.

Haven't you noticed the cis-women here are largely and mostly disagreeing with you?
But that's nothing new. For a long time now cis women have been more ok and supportive of trans people than cis men.

 

[icehorse]

Haven't you noticed the cis-women here are largely and mostly disagreeing with you?
But that's nothing new. For a long time now cis women have been more ok and supportive of trans people than cis men.

I do not think the cis-women who have been in these conversations are representative of the general population.

As I've said several times, and you've ignored, is that I've talked - in person - to several dozen women, and they mostly agree with me. But really, your sample set and mine are both too small.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I do not think the cis-women who have been in these conversations are representative of the general population.

As I've said several times, and you've ignored, is that I've talked - in person - to several dozen women, and they mostly agree with me. But really, your sample set and mine are both too small.

And I've told with many dozens of women who are ok with it. My friends have always been mostly women, after all. Some even helped encouraging me and getting me out of the closet. Not one of my nieces have am issue with it (and the oldest two have been molested and raped), and nothing changed between my best friend and I and were still as close and tight as ever. And the friends I'm making here are all cis women.
All you're doing is ignoring women who disagree with you, so much so you claimed one woman who disagreed with you was actually aggreeing with you (I can easily find and quote that exchange if you need a reminder). If you only took your word on it we wouldn't believe some ciswomen even get excited to help a friend who was born male transition to being female. And sometimes that does get degrading as they see a doll to dress up and forget there's still a human there (but I've only known a couple like that).

 

[anna.]

I do not think the cis-women who have been in these conversations are representative of the general population.

As I've said several times, and you've ignored, is that I've talked - in person - to several dozen women, and they mostly agree with me. But really, your sample set and mine are both too small.

You literally have no idea if I’m representative of the general population. But you’re a classic representation of men presuming they can speak for me.

Also, you’ve talked to dozens of women about bath rooms? That’s interesting.