Why is this board so obsessed with restrooms?

[YmirGF]

I think that many of the cases where people appear to be men but identify as women and act inappropriately, or people appear to be women but identify as men and act inappropriately, and other situations where people switch their gender and attract public attention, are actually non-binary people. For example, a trans woman who keeps a beard and insists on it might claim to be trans, but they seem more like non-binary to me.

As for how I view people who are gender fluid... Most of the ones I've met don't change their physical appearance that much in the way that some of these stories do, at least not to draw much attention to themselves. They might look like a woman one month, then look like a man the next, in some cases. They might also look like a man or woman only, but experiment with different pronouns, even for longer periods of time. But many of these stories, including the ones about people with lipstick and beards, are actually non-binary people. There are even some non-binary people who trans people wouldn't really welcome in their spaces - for reasons. Some non-binary people do fit well in trans spaces. But others, can sometimes have some offensive and overly simplistic views, so it's not always clear-cut.

If it is any consolation, Marcus, the Offensive tranny, say almost exactly the same thing. These new exotic permutations are not genuinely trans but are simply going wild with their so-called "gender expression".

 

[anna.]

If I may interject, I would draw the line where the statement addresses the person rather than the action. "You are being unreasonable" is about the action, or statement. I wouldn't take offense at that, we are all unreasonable at times and the subjectivity is generally implied. "You are an unreasonable person" is offensive.

Incidentally, most of us make statements in debate where "in my opinion" is understood. It gets tiresome to add that qualification to everything we say, and we leave it to the reader to understand that it is implied.

Ideally, everyone does. And I wouldn't take offense either at being told I was being unreasonable. Far worse has been said to me...

 

[YmirGF]

Ideally, everyone does. And I wouldn't take offense either at being told I was being unreasonable. Far worse has been said to me...

You are just so... unreasonable.

 

[anna.]

You are just so... unreasonable.

 

[YmirGF]

@icehorse is correct about the term "genderF123" (the 123 sounds like duck). Part of the reason I think this has managed to stay under the radar is because the very term bounces off most speech conventions on social media sites. It's hard to talk about because the word is always neutered.

The definition for GenderF__k is:

Via Lord Google "seeks to subvert traditional gender binary by mixing or bending one's gender expression, identity, or presentation (e.g., a transgender woman wearing a dress and having a beard may considered gender**** or engaging in gender****ing)."

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

@YmirGF - I'm glad that someone explained that term. I thought with the asterisks, that people were talking about "gender fluid"

 

[YmirGF]

@YmirGF - I'm glad that someone explained that term. I thought with the asterisks, that people were talking about "gender fluid"

Admittedly, it is hard to keep track of all this rubb... err... fine information.

 

[icehorse]

And like many women, I have my own stories of unwanted physical harassment and more than that, which I'm not inclined to discuss with you. None of those incidents came from a transgender woman so no, I'm not afraid to use the women's restroom. If there were a reason to use caution, it would be, for example, using a park restroom at night or in a secluded location. But would I be afraid of a transgender woman? No. I'd be afraid of a man. And for good reason.

I hope you know by now that this is ENTIRELY consistent with my ideas on this topic?

And no, it's a very well accepted part of debate that if you make the claim, you should be prepared to support it. If you expect others to carry your water, then you can also expect that people will take your allegations as unsupported, and even unsupportable.

I have to confess, I'm still finding this tricky. If we are to assume good faith, then I'm fine providing citations. But when I suspect less than good faith, I find myself growing weary of taking on that burden for posters who appear to be doing some form of trolling. Is that a subjective call? Of course. Am I always right? Probably not.

FWIW, I view you as a poster who's operating in good faith.

 

[icehorse]

You're avoiding my question: Are you going to check everyone's "equipment" before they enter a women's restroom? a "potty patrol"? Have you ever been into a unisex bathroom? I have. It's no big deal!!!

I'm NOT avoiding your question. I've answered it. LET ME REITERATE: I believe that the way it's always been, is that if a man entered a women's safe space, people observing this would raise an alarm. So no, I'm not proposing equipment checks.

As for it being no big deal, tell that to women who have been assaulted. That is frankly one of the most selfish posts I've ever seen you make

 

[Soandso]

@icehorse is correct about the term "genderF123" (the 123 sounds like duck). Part of the reason I think this has managed to stay under the radar is because the very term bounces off most speech conventions on social media sites. It's hard to talk about because the word is always neutered.

The definition for GenderF__k is:

Via Lord Google "seeks to subvert traditional gender binary by mixing or bending one's gender expression, identity, or presentation (e.g., a transgender woman wearing a dress and having a beard may considered gender**** or engaging in gender****ing)."

I don't think anyone is debating whether it's real or not. I think the point of contention is whether or not it actually presents any kind of actual tangible threat to society or if it's just one of the other countless subcultures that nobody in the real world knows or cares about like long furbies or snape wives on Tumblr. So what if there are strange people online? They don't seem to be hurting or advocating to hurt anyone. I'll take that over another lunatic planning a mass shooting any day

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I hope you know by now that this is ENTIRELY consistent with my ideas on this topic?

How? Looks entirely at odds to me.

 

[icehorse]

How? Looks entirely at odds to me.

I don't find that at all surprising

 

[icehorse]

I don't think anyone is debating whether it's real or not. I think the point of contention is whether or not it actually presents any kind of actual tangible threat to society or if it's just one of the other countless subcultures that nobody in the real world knows or cares about like long furbies or snape wives on Tumblr. So what if there are strange people online? They don't seem to be hurting or advocating to hurt anyone. I'll take that over another lunatic planning a mass shooting any day

I don't think you could steelman my position if there was a $1000 prize.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't find that at all surprising

It shouldn't be. I'm not the one who thinks it's am issue and concern regarding masculine looking women using women's facilities. I'm not the one with so many holes in my ideas that I find trans-men a stumper.

 

[Soandso]

I don't think you could steelman my position if there was a $1000 prize.

How am I misrepresenting your position specifically? You gave an example of a tiny group of people who have no power over anything. They are the subbest of subcultures. Do you have any evidence that they are influencing anything in any meaningful way? You said "Many trans women no longer care about looking like women, i.e. they look like men. When it becomes acceptable for people-in-general, who look like men, to enter into women's safe spaces, evil-non-trans-men will take advantage of that new normal." And then when asked to give an example you linked me to these folks - this is your evidence you presented

Maybe you have other examples to use as evidence besides these folks who the average normie never has heard of

 

[Shadow Wolf]

When it becomes acceptable for people-in-general, who look like men, to enter into women's safe spaces, evil-non-trans-men will take advantage of that new normal."

Sounds like an unconscious admission of not know how rape and sexual assault work. Even before today's times having gendered restrooms has failed already from time to time to stop men determined on malicious intent. Definitely want to look at the male janitors first before women who some random blowhole decides don't look female enough.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Sounds like an unconscious admission of not know how rape and sexual assault work. Even before today's times having gendered restrooms has failed already from time to time to stop men determined on malicious intent. Definitely want to look at the male janitors first before women who some random blowhole decides don't look female enough.

And the amount of sexual assault that happens in public restrooms is tiny compared to homes and offices. The same people who are like 'how dare we change things for a small percentage of people who are trans' are also advocating changing things for a tiny percentage of sexual assault cases.

This BS 'I'm here to protect women by regulating how femine people in women's bathrooms should appear' (already a deeply sexist take) is a lot easier than genuinely looking at the causes of rape culture.

 

[metis]

I'm NOT avoiding your question. I've answered it. LET ME REITERATE: I believe that the way it's always been, is that if a man entered a women's safe space, people observing this would raise an alarm. So no, I'm not proposing equipment checks.

But there's no other way to know for sure the sex of those entering in! Why can't you even see this as it's not rocket science?

As for it being no big deal, tell that to women who have been assaulted. That is frankly one of the most selfish posts I've ever seen you make

Women have been assaulted in bathrooms by other women or men entering them, and sometimes men have been assaulted as well.

The reality is this is mostly political nonsense and largely a spinoff of DeSantis' "culture wars" campaign. I've been in unisex bathrooms in Quebec and in Europe, and I actually do believe this is the best way to go [pun unintended, but...].

 

[icehorse]

But there's no other way to know for sure the sex of those entering in! Why can't you even see this as it's not rocket science?

As I believe I said, the current solution is not perfect. So far, so good?

But the concern is to take the current solution and make it even further from perfect than it already is.

Women have been assaulted in bathrooms by other women or men entering them, and sometimes men have been assaulted as well.

The reality is this is mostly political nonsense and largely a spinoff of DeSantis' "culture wars" campaign. I've been in unisex bathrooms in Quebec and in Europe, and I actually do believe this is the best way to go [pun unintended, but...].

Would you agree that the context of this discussion is statistical in nature? Of course, all varieties of who's assaulting whom occur. But statistically, men assault women more than the other varieties.

As for your personal experience, I say with all sincerity, who cares? I've talked with many women who do NOT believe this is the best way to go. And of course, my argument is not limited to rest rooms, it's a broader category called "women's safe spaces". So I'm also arguing about locker rooms, safe houses, shelters and such.

 

[BlueIslandGirl]

A good way to sum up the imperfect solutions is: "Good men stay out, so bad men stand out" - again, knowing that most violent crimes and sexual assaults are committed by men, in all kinds of places, which is why we have "women's spaces" to begin with (like safe houses, separate women's prisons, separate women's changing rooms, and yes, restrooms). Imperfect yes, but FAR better than the old regime when women had no safe spaces at all, when women were essentially shut out of public life.

Also, "good men" deserve privacy and dignity too. Most "good men" do not want to invade women's personal spaces, and don't particularly want women in their changing rooms, restrooms, etc. either. The men who want to invade women's spaces should raise a huge red flag, and yes, that is why we fight for single sex spaces.