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Trump Indicted. To be Arrested in Days.

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
And Bush and Cheney were not and will not be prosecuted for war crimes and misleading the public.
Misleading the public isn't a crime at all.
It's even useful to win elections.
As for war crimes, that's a completely different kind of crime,
one which we can't expect the countries in power to ever apply
to their own. So that's far less realistic to expect than prosecuting
Presidents for conventional felonies, eg, perjury, suborning perjury,
insurrection, & subversion.

The fact that Trump is the first former president to face criminal charges when Bill Clinton and George W. Bush exist is a blot on the American justice system. Every single one of the three deserves to be charged.
I'm not so sure about Bush for the reasons given.
War inherently involves crimes. Prosecution is for
when the crimes are out of the ordinary, & the
leader prosecuted is on the losing side.
Not saying it should be this way...it just is.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Would it not be political to let him get away with felonies?
If the Government wanted to they could find a crime in your life!

First, a porn actress extorted $130,000 from “candidate” Trump. But then she wanted more after he got elected! Her attorney is in prison for trying to extort Nike and other real crimes.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Misleading the public isn't a crime at all.
It's even useful to win elections.
As for war crimes, that's a completely different kind of crime,
one which we can't expect the countries in power to ever apply
to their own. So that's far less realistic to expect than prosecuting
Presidents for conventional felonies, eg, perjury, suborning perjury,
insurrection, & subversion.

I think one of the counts of impeachment against Nixon was for bombing Cambodia. I think that's the closest we've ever come to charging a President with a war crime. They have charged lower-ranking military personnel, although it's usually presented in that manner, while the higher ups are insulated and can pull the Sgt. Schultz routine: "We know nothing."

1680223714147.png
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Misleading the public isn't a crime at all.
It's even useful to win elections.

Even when that includes false intel based on which a war was launched and cost the country trillions of dollars? I would assume a lot of voters would support prosecution at least for egregiously wasting taxpayer money.

As for war crimes, that's a completely different kind of crime,
one which we can't expect the countries in power to ever apply
to their own. So that's far less realistic to expect than prosecuting
Presidents for conventional felonies, eg, perjury, suborning perjury,
insurrection, & subversion.

It's unrealistic largely because countries make it so. It's kind of a self-perpetuating prophecy. The US government wouldn't collapse if it prosecuted a former president on those charges.

I'm not so sure about Bush for the reasons given.
War inherently involves crimes. Prosecution is for
when the crimes are out of the ordinary, & the
leader prosecuted is on the losing side.

I would say they were out of the ordinary, but "ordinary" is a highly subjective term either way. Most countries in the world haven't waged a war in decades, let alone one so destructive and drawn out.

Not saying it should be this way...it just is.

Yes, it's true that this is the way things are, sadly.

Regardless, I support the indictment of Trump, but fomenting insurrection seems to me a charge he should face. If he doesn't, it may cement the message that former presidents are above the law.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I think one of the counts of impeachment against Nixon was for bombing Cambodia. I think that's the closest we've ever come to charging a President with a war crime. They have charged lower-ranking military personnel, although it's usually presented in that manner, while the higher ups are insulated and can pull the Sgt. Schultz routine: "We know nothing."

View attachment 74050
It's never good to be of lower rank
when the feces hit then fan.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Even when that includes false intel based on which a war was launched and cost the country trillions of dollars? I would assume a lot of voters would support prosecution at least for egregiously wasting taxpayer money.
Wasting taxpayer money isn't a crime.

It's unrealistic largely because countries make it so. It's kind of a self-perpetuating prophecy. The US government wouldn't collapse if it prosecuted a former president on those charges.
Such is the reality.
I would say they were out of the ordinary, but "ordinary" is a highly subjective term either way. Most countries in the world haven't waged a war in decades, let alone one so destructive and drawn out.
I don't share your view that prosecution
would be successful.

Yes, it's true that this is the way things are, sadly.

Regardless, I support the indictment of Trump, but fomenting insurrection seems to me a charge he should face. If he doesn't, it may cement the message that former presidents are above the law.
Aye, that's me point.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
It's more like realizing the actual reality of the way things are rather than the continual platitudes people get fed and the subsequent excuses following as to why it did not come to pass.
That is not anything like an answer to why you think that Trump should be above the law. That is, after all, what you said.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Perhaps you misunderstand me.
I'm not saying it's OK for Presidents to commit crimes.
Instead, I want all of'm prosecuted when they have.
Clinton's several crimes were ignored.
Trump's lesser crimes are being prosecuted.
And his subversion is being ignored.
This whole history is a perversion of justice.
Aren't you happy that w are moving in the right direction? And there are at least three other cases that are likely to have an indictment, and his civil rape case that looks bad for him. He's gotten away with decades of criminal activity and karma is a *****.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It's never good to be of lower rank
when the feces hit then fan.

The lower ranking folks always get hit first and the hardest. As the song goes, "We all gotta duck when the **** hits the fan."

 

F1fan

Veteran Member
If the Government wanted to they could find a crime in your life!
Maybe if you are a minority and corrupt cops are planting drugs on you. Trump committed his crimes in broad daylight in front of witnesses.
First, a porn actress extorted $130,000 from “candidate” Trump. But then she wanted more after he got elected! Her attorney is in prison for trying to extort Nike and other real crimes.
All this mess is Trump's fault. He didn't have to run for president. He decided to cheat on his wife. His corrupt habits have caught up to him. He could have gotten away with infidelity all he wanted as long as he didn't run for office. The funny thing his supporters don't care that he cheats and is corrupt. He didn't have to try a coverup. His favorability has gone up with this indictment. He's raising money on this news. His followers are idiots. This is bad for republicans.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Aren't you happy that w are moving in the right direction? And there are at least three other cases that are likely to have an indictment, and his civil rape case that looks bad for him. He's gotten away with decades of criminal activity and karma is a *****.

I think the issue here is that people could see this as;

1) a trend in the right direction, whereby politicians are held to account in an equitable manner. Sounds good.

2) an attempt to make one politician be held to account for being a generally crap bloke, divisive and almost guilty of a thousand things, and a general cancer in society.

I can think Trump's a total...umm....well. I dislike him intensely. And still see signs of item 2 and think it's problematic.

I can't speak for @Revoltingest of course, but I have concerns on this too.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Maybe if you are a minority and corrupt cops are planting drugs on you. Trump committed his crimes in broad daylight in front of witnesses.

All this mess is Trump's fault. He didn't have to run for president. He decided to cheat on his wife. His corrupt habits have caught up to him. He could have gotten away with infidelity all he wanted as long as he didn't run for office. The funny thing his supporters don't care that he cheats and is corrupt. He didn't have to try a coverup. His favorability has gone up with this indictment. He's raising money on this news. His followers are idiots. This is bad for republicans.

He's not being put on trial for infidelity. It's for misuse of campaign funds, right?
Something that many other politicians have been guilty of.

I'd love him to be tried and found guilty of vote rigging or similar. If there's evidence of that, he should ABSOLUTELY be held to account.

I also have no doubt the guy has gotten away with all sorts of stuff over his life, and if I think 'Hey, karma' I really find it hard to care what happens to him, honestly.

But legally...we'll see. Hopefully I'm wrong and there's more to this.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member

It also hit the top of the iTunes sales chart. The proceeds benefit those incarcerated in connection with Jan. 6.

"It was No. 1. And you know what that is? That’s a tribute to the fact that people feel that J Six people have been very unfairly treated," Trump said.

The former president opened his first official 2024 campaign rally by playing the song and reportedly showing footage of the insurrection.

Fox News host Brian Kilmeade on Monday called it "insane" for Trump to continue focusing on Jan. 6.

I haven't this song or seen the video. Although I just found it on Spotify.

The "J6 Choir" or perhaps the "Moron Tabernacle Choir."
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I think the issue here is that people could see this as;

1) a trend in the right direction, whereby politicians are held to account in an equitable manner. Sounds good.

2) an attempt to make one politician be held to account for being a generally crap bloke, divisive and almost guilty of a thousand things, and a general cancer in society.
There have been numerous politicians indicted over the last decade. There was a representative in California who had massive fund raising fraud and he was indicted and convicted, but also won his race. he ended up resigning and went to prison. I can't remember his name. So it happens. Clinton should have been indicted after he left office. But he lied about a blow job, not exactly a huge crime against society. Bush and Cheney should have been indicted by international courts for war crimes. Why they didn't, I don't know. Many politicians have exemptions from legal accountability. I thought certain republicans should have been indicted for lax policies during the pandemic that led to many dying, but since it was part of their official duty they can't be indicted. I suspect any case against Bush and Cheney would have problems due to lack of access to secure documents. It would be a hard case to make showing that they made a decision to invade Iraq knowingly that the intel of WMD were false. We all kinda know, but you need documents and witnesses for a court case. You need those for an indictment. This is why elections matter. This is why we need to elect the most ethical candidate. The Bush/Cheney ticket? They were fishy. I met Bush between his election and 9-11, and I got to say he is likable. My mom talked to him for about 5 minutes at the event we were at and it was vastly longer than any other ctizen there, as she asked him questions about how he's dealing with life as president. Bush was actually happy to talk about himself as a person, not as president. It was interesting. He really is just a good ole boy who believes Jesus is his savior. Likeable, but not Mensa material. I can see why Michelle Obama likes him, he's the guy next door, a friendly guy.

(Funny tangent. One of the secret service guys kept looking my way, but not at my face, at my chest. I was wondering WTF. I looked down and I noticed my Ralph Lauren shirt had the word "Florida" printed on it. I laughed and told my mom I didn't realize what my shirt said when I put it on that day. When Bush walked up I made a note of what my shirt said, and he laughed and said "Well, we won anyway.")
I can think Trump's a total...umm....well. I dislike him intensely. And still see signs of item 2 and think it's problematic.

I can't speak for @Revoltingest of course, but I have concerns on this too.
Let's remember that Cohen went to prison for being part of the crime Trump was indicted on today. The question is why wasn't this indictment right after he left office. Well, Trump was president and things were on hold. Afterwards witnesses had to be interviewed. Same crime, but different actor. The whole case has to be built before indictments. It's up to grand juries, not prosecutors to indict. Trump is a speciasl kind of politial idiot, and despite his attempt to cover himself from accountability he is careless. His many phone calls to Georgia electional officials was stupid. It's not like winning GA was going to get him back into the White House. We need to understand this is not a smart man. He is very corrupt and used to being corrupt and getting away with it. Note that he could have gotten awy with everything he's done if he never got into politics. He caused his own problems. He is owed nothing. Breaking the law opens the door to investigation. Being a sloppy criminal means indictment.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
He's not being put on trial for infidelity. It's for misuse of campaign funds, right?
Something that many other politicians have been guilty of.
Let's be clear. It might be the case that everyone knows a politican commited some sort of fraud, but in law you need to be able to prove it. You need documents, and witnesses willing to talk. The discovery process is largely an honor system, but documents get destroyed. Witnesses claim to know nothing. Can they prove any of it? There were enough people in the legal department at FOX to hand over text messages and documents to Dominion lawyers that they have an excellent case against FOX. It is a crime for people to destroy evidence that is material to an open or pending lawsuit. Who wants to go to prison for FOX or Trump?

So we all might know someone is guilty, but the legal system needs evidence to show to juries. This is why so many of Trump allies claim the 5th amendment. They don't have to incriminate themselves, nor provide evidence against Trump.
I'd love him to be tried and found guilty of vote rigging or similar. If there's evidence of that, he should ABSOLUTELY be held to account.

I also have no doubt the guy has gotten away with all sorts of stuff over his life, and if I think 'Hey, karma' I really find it hard to care what happens to him, honestly.

But legally...we'll see. Hopefully I'm wrong and there's more to this.
It seems many realize Trump is a sinking ship and those who want to save their *** are handing over evidence. Only dumb Trump supporters are doubling down. I don;t know what are going to do if he is convicted. I can see a scenario where they believe America has ended and they commit acts of violence against anyone they see and against them. Domestic terrorism. This is what the republican party has become. What decent person wants to be part of that? I have long said that American needs to have a collapse before they can get past Trumpism.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
You say "nonsense", but that's exactly what I'm criticizing.
Lying about hush money isn't inherently illegal.
If he declared it as a business deduction, that's normally
a matter for the IRS to simply levy penalties & interest
against an ordinary citizen.
But the masses would go to prison for perjury & suborning
perjury. Yet Clinton escaped even the lightest scrutiny for
those. And then there was the selling of pardons. No
prosecution at all.
The double standard smacks of politics.
Um, no. Trump made the payments and hid them to avoid campaign finance regulations. That's hardly something "the masses" do.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
And how did that turn out for Edwards?
All show, but no judgment or sanctions.
Trump might've been acting on the
message that it's OK for Democrats, &
must be for him too.
You're missing the point. The Edwards case shows that the Trump case isn't anything unusual, new, or even politically motivated. Politicians, both Dems and Repubs, have been indicted for campaign finance violations. Trump is just the latest.

And if Trump thought as you depict, then he's a bigger idiot than I thought.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Perhaps you misunderstand me.
I'm not saying it's OK for Presidents to commit crimes.
Instead, I want all of'm prosecuted when they have.
Clinton's several crimes were ignored.
Trump's lesser crimes are being prosecuted.
And his subversion is being ignored.
This whole history is a perversion of justice.
I'm not aware of Clinton's crimes except lying to congress about a blow job. He shouldn't have lied about it, but come on, republicans pressuring him to admit it under oath when it really wasn't anyone's business, and had nothing to do with politics....

And Trump is facing 4 criminal indictments. And a civil rape case. How does that register as less than Clinton's crimes?
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
It’s political and sets a precedent. The Biden crime family will be next! What a terrible mistake!
Why shouldn't those guilty of criminal activity be held accountable for it? As for Biden, if someone has enough substantial evidence to make a case then go for it. Cockamamie conspiracy theories ain't going to cut it, though.
 
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