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The Power of a Message of Peace is Unfolding.

Is Peace now possible


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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
We are neither Socialists nor Capitalists, there is a new race of men, building new financial ideals.

"Certainly, some being enormously rich and others lamentably poor, an organization is necessary to control and improve this state of affairs. It is important to limit riches, as it is also of importance to limit poverty. Either extreme is not good. To be seated in the mean is most desirable. If it be right for a capitalist to possess a large fortune, it is equally just that his workman should have a sufficient means of existence." – Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks

Regards Tony
So this is incorrect?
Yes a capitalist system is required.
What are some of the Baha'i economic ideas? As I recall farming was very important. And what do Baha'is think about the industries that make things or supply the energy most of us have come to require but that have such a negative effect on the environment?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Perhaps you are not aware of what else is offered to support a capitalist balance.

As offered our view is not of either extremity, it is a balance.

Regards Tony
Like I said, you clearly don't understand socialism. But that's very common. With all the negative propaganda against it, who can blame you?

The social democracies of out planet generally lead in many key points like 'best country' etc.

But you're probably right. After all, I join others in being full of Baloney.

Edited to add this link... 5 Fundamentals and Principles of Socialism
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
And why follow the Baha'i teachings to do that? What's wrong with the teachings of the other religions?

God promised this day, I choose to be part of this day, not bygone days!
Still, what is wrong with the other religions? It is obvious that Baha'is really don't believe in them. The only religion that will work to bring peace and unity to the world, you believe, is your religion, the Baha'i Faith. Nothing wrong with believing that, but it is debatable whether it's true or not.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Still, what is wrong with the other religions? It is obvious that Baha'is really don't believe in them. The only religion that will work to bring peace and unity to the world, you believe, is your religion, the Baha'i Faith. Nothing wrong with believing that, but it is debatable whether it's true or not.
The main thing wrong with other religions, as far as I can figure, is that they're not Baha'i.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
When you say Bible, I assume you mean the Christian version. But the Jewish Bible and the Christian Bible don't necessarily support a belief in Islam or the Baha'i Faith. To you, yes. To others, no.

I see Isalm and the Baha'i Faith are fully supported.
Again, debatable. What's the proof that it is "fully" supported? It is based on the interpretation of a few Bible and NT verses. One of the strangest ones to me is how the "Three Woes" in Revelation are made to be Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Because later in Revelation there are more "Woes". Which manifestations are these?

Rev 18:9 “When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her. 10 Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:

“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
you mighty city of Babylon!
In one hour your doom has come!’

11 “The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes anymore— 12 cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13 cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and human beings sold as slaves.

14 “They will say, ‘The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your luxury and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.’ 15 The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn 16 and cry out:

“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
17 In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’

“Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. 18 When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, ‘Was there ever a city like this great city?’ 19 They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:

“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
where all who had ships on the sea
became rich through her wealth!
In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’
I'm sure you can make these "Woes" work too, but to be consistent, you have to. Baha'is can't make "Woes" be manifestations in one chapter and then ignore the "Woes" that are mentioned in a later chapter.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Isaiah 9:6-7 is foretelling of Baha'u'llah, 100% so
Again, a context problem...

9 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.

2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.

4 For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian.

5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

8 The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.

9 And all the people shall know, even Ephraim and the inhabitant of Samaria, that say in the pride and stoutness of heart, 10 The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycomores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars.

11 Therefore the LORD shall set up the adversaries of Rezin against him, and join his enemies together; 12 The Syrians before, and the Philistines behind; and they shall devour Israel with open mouth. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

13 For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the LORD of hosts.

14 Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day.
At least is was two verses cherry picked and taken out of context and not just one. But what is this all about? How do verses 6 and 7 fit in with the rest of what is talked about?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Daniel 7:13-14 seems to be talking about the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
The context?
7 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.

2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
religions will merge into one, for the divine reality within them all is one reality. Abraham proclaimed this reality; Jesus promulgated it; all the Prophets who have appeared in the world have founded Their teachings upon it.
Weren't there several false religions, idol worshipping religions during the time of Abraham and Jesus? Those religions were not part of the supposedly true religions of God. But it's a nice sounding thing for Abdul Baha' to say. But is it true?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The main thing wrong with other religions, as far as I can figure, is that they're not Baha'i.
Before I knew what other religions really believed, I thought what the Baha'is said was true. All the other religions were true, as "revealed" by their particular manifestation, but then the leaders added things in and messed up those "original" teachings. And that is why the Baha'i God had to send another manifestation to correct those errors that crept in.

If that were true then, by this time, Hinduism must be completely messed up... And with so many other manifestations that have come and gone, woefully out of date. And for all the good teachings that Baha'is do have, I can't get behind that one... the one that makes all the other religions wrong and out of date. And if one thing is false about them, then the whole thing crumbles. Because, as we know so well, they believe their teachings are the infallible truth from God for this day and age.

What choice do they leave us? We have to reject them or accept them completely.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The main thing wrong with other religions, as far as I can figure, is that they're not Baha'i.
And one more thing... They want us to work with them for peace and unity, but how can we as long as they have this law of theirs that makes homosexuality forbidden? Are we supposed to ignore it? Or are we supposed to hold our ground and tell them that we can work with them if they get rid of this law? And we do, and their answer back is that they can't... It is God's law. So again, it makes us have to reject them and say that we don't believe God would make a law like that.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Before I knew what other religions really believed, I thought what the Baha'is said was true. All the other religions were true, as "revealed" by their particular manifestation, but then the leaders added things in and messed up those "original" teachings. And that is why the Baha'i God had to send another manifestation to correct those errors that crept in.

If that were true then, by this time, Hinduism must be completely messed up... And with so many other manifestations that have come and gone, woefully out of date. And for all the good teachings that Baha'is do have, I can't get behind that one... the one that makes all the other religions wrong and out of date. And if one thing is false about them, then the whole thing crumbles. Because, as we know so well, they believe their teachings are the infallible truth from God for this day and age.

What choice do they leave us? We have to reject them or accept them completely.

I don't reject anyone, as a person. It's the beliefs that I reject, and there are probably some I agree with, such as working together to make a better planet. The challenge for many is the transition from belief to practice. For Baha'i, as far as I can tell, their chief practice is promoting Baha'i. I can see interfaith coalitions being useful, if everyone leaves their religion at the door. Heck, many of us who come to these forums leave our religions at the door, other than the door to the DIR.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
So this is incorrect?
What are some of the Baha'i economic ideas? As I recall farming was very important. And what do Baha'is think about the industries that make things or supply the energy most of us have come to require but that have such a negative effect on the environment?

I was speaking to someone that asked about the capital side of economics, without supplying all available information, which people have often said we give to much. I also offered the Law that said we are to replace our household goods every 19 years at least, if we have the means.

Regards Tony
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I was speaking to someone that asked about the capital side of economics, without supplying all available information, which people have often said we give to much. I also offered the Law that said we are to replace our household goods every 19 years at least, if we have the means.

Regards Tony
Why in the world would you want to replace something that is in perfectly good shape? Just because some Law says you should? Stainless steel, china, and porcelain have a shelf life of 19 years?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
And what's a good word to describe that law? Anti-homosexual sex law?

No, that is your choice of words. God is not Bias, the Laws have wisdoms many are yet to contemplate.

A good description is a Law, given of God.

With God's Laws, we have free will to accept and submit, or not accept and acknowledge the applicable sanctions, or penalties will be applicable, or not pay any attention to them at all.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Like I said, you clearly don't understand socialism. But that's very common. With all the negative propaganda against it, who can blame you?

The social democracies of out planet generally lead in many key points like 'best country' etc.

But you're probably right. After all, I join others in being full of Baloney.

Edited to add this link... 5 Fundamentals and Principles of Socialism

That is the issue when a new system is given, people tend to put it in a bag they can identify with.

I quote from a blog post.

"When people first encounter the Baha’i teachings and start to study them, this emphasis on the eradication of poverty might lead them to think that Baha’is advocate a traditional socialistic approach – but that would be a mistake."

Are Baha’is Capitalists or Socialists?

So if you choose that is one explanation. There are hundreds more.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Still, what is wrong with the other religions? It is obvious that Baha'is really don't believe in them. The only religion that will work to bring peace and unity to the world, you believe, is your religion, the Baha'i Faith. Nothing wrong with believing that, but it is debatable whether it's true or not.

You keep offering this CG. I am not looking for any problems with other religions. We have shared from the Baha'i Writings, what has been revealed by the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdul'Baha and Shoghi Effendi, as oects of faith that have divided religions in the past.

So people can choose to see if they are valid observations or not.

Other than that, carry on as normal! Just dismiss it all.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Again, debatable. What's the proof that it is "fully" supported? It is based on the interpretation of a few Bible and NT verses. One of the strangest ones to me is how the "Three Woes" in Revelation are made to be Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Because later in Revelation there are more "Woes". Which manifestations are these?

Rev 18:9 “When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her. 10 Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:

“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
you mighty city of Babylon!
In one hour your doom has come!’

11 “The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes anymore— 12 cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13 cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and human beings sold as slaves.

14 “They will say, ‘The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your luxury and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.’ 15 The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn 16 and cry out:

“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
17 In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’

“Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. 18 When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, ‘Was there ever a city like this great city?’ 19 They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:

“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
where all who had ships on the sea
became rich through her wealth!
In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’
I'm sure you can make these "Woes" work too, but to be consistent, you have to. Baha'is can't make "Woes" be manifestations in one chapter and then ignore the "Woes" that are mentioned in a later chapter.

The Message is a sword, it divides between those that accept the promise and those that do not.

The Woe's of the bab and Baha'u'llah, are the Messages they give, not their person's.

The Woes in those passage are telling us what those Message will result in.

I see Babylon being Materialism, Woe Woe to that, it has brought our doom, the hour has indeed come.

A couple of passage are explaining the material decadence and how the wealth will be brought to nothing. Woe woe in the same hour as above......."one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’"

The reference to sea, the Captians and Sailor's may reference the Divines and others in faith who were steering the Faith of Christ ,(any faith), the words of Christ can be seen as an ocean of knowledge. They also made wealth of Materialism and Woe Woe to those faiths in the same hour, those faiths that......."became rich through her wealth! In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’"

So are you able to see why the Revelation from God is a Woe? Are you able to see the hour we live in, the final hour? The Hour God warned us of in the 1800's?

Regards Tony
 
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