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Not a sin anymore???

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The issue that Christians have is:
1 i belive the Bible to be an authority

2 the Bible seems to suggest that doing gay stuff is wrong.

3 intuitively, in seems as if nothing is wrong with being gay . (Gay peoole dont harm anyone)

Christians have to drop one of these 3 points. And i will not drop any of these 3 points just because you say so (you should provide an argument)

Then you have painted yourself into a corner that your reasoning faculty could have rescued you from had you not subverted it to protect your faith-based beliefs. I dropped number 1 above. I did. Now, I'm left with 2 and 3, which are compatible once one rejects scripture as a moral authority. Yes, the Bible says homosexuality is an abomination, meaning that an unrepentant, active homosexual is fit for perdition, and my conscience tells me that that is irrational bigotry. That leaves me with an internally consistent view. The believer has to contend with cognitive dissonance or learn to ignore it if you can.

There are dozens of examples of these kinds of problem resolving themselves following a transition to humanism. All of the enigmas and conundrums of Christianity evaporated away - why God allows gratuitous suffering, why the Bible seems to contradict itself, why prophecy is so weak and unconvincing, why God seems to not answer prayer, why God disapproves of homosexuals, why I can't move mountains with faith, why Christian morality seems flawed, why there are so many religions, why we never see God, why the creation and flood myths are so wrong, etc.. Believers have to try to reconcile all of these with their belief that a good God knows and loves them, and we know what that looks like. And you know how that feels. So do I, a former Christian apologist. But today? None of those are issues, which is powerful evidence that my previous beliefs were wrong.

Think about that. It never occurred to you that you were living with a narcissistic gaslighter, and now your head is filled with false beliefs that don't feel right. One day, you seriously begin considering that your basic beliefs about this person may be incorrect, and you notice that this one change of going from a believer of the abuser's words to a skeptic of them resolves dozens of these matters in one fell swoop. That's powerful evidence that you were wrong and now are correct.

The point that @YoursTrue seems to be making is that Pedifiles cant do anything do avoid feeling sexual attraction towards children..... (it's their nature) but as society we do expect pedophiles to act against their nature and to avoid acting on their desires. The point is that the "its their nature" argument to justfy homosexuality is stupid. (You might have other arguments, but this particular argument is flawed) agreee ?

Yes, same sex attraction and pedophilia are natural inclinations in those who have them. The argument for tolerating homosexuality is not based in it being natural, but in it being harmless among consenting adults behind closed doors, unlike sex with minors. There is no rational or compassionate argument against homosexuality, just religious ones.

The fact that you don't like the morality of the bible doesn't make it poor, or wrong.

No, the fact that it often conflicts with rational ethics does. Just as theists decide to believe their book morality is correct, humanists assume that the conscience is the source of moral guidance, and the consensus of rational ethicists is the proper moral authority against which other moral systems ought to be judged. Theists have long enjoyed the status of being able to call others immoral simply for not sharing their book's values. I'm loathe to use that language with theists, and tend to divert my moral criticism to the religion rather than its adherents, but I do consider them wrong and their moral system inadequate.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The point that @YoursTrue seems to be making is that Pedifiles cant do anything do avoid feeling sexual attraction towards children..... (it's their nature) but as society we do expect pedophiles to act against their nature and to avoid acting on their desires.

The point is that the "its their nature" argument to justfy homosexuality is stupid. (You might have other arguments, but this particular argument is flawed) agreee ?
Not exactly sure of what you're saying, but I think that is the point. If a pedophile really really wants to change, it's like almost being an alcoholic. He has to avoid any contact with children if possible and -- does go through pain to harness his unsavory desires that he realizes are hard to control. Yes, it's slightly different from adultery because I THINK (not sure) it's easier for adulterers to control themselves, but that urge can overcome our instinct to do what's right. Thanks for that comment.
Oh, and P.S. since some young people who think (?) they want to change sex by medical devices can go through with it, I've read some feel really bad about it later...but oh well...society allows it in some instances. And the sad, sad instances of boys being castrated at birth because of a defect and then forced to grow up as girls. Abominable! But there's more...I've done some research on this, it's particularly sad however, I agree we're children of Adam & Eve, born into imperfection, which means our genes are messed with. HOWEVER it doesn't mean we cannot learn to restrain ourselves and please God to the greatest extend (along with His holy spirit or active force). Regards...
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Are not sex toys the best option. You avoid transgressing the scriptures of Abrahamic religions.

Today, we are having a mega crackdown on Child Sexual Abuse Material.

"The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) on September 24, 2022 conducted searches at 56 locations across 19 States and one Union Territory, as part of a pan-India drive against the circulation and sharing of Child Sexual Abuse Material (CSAM)."
Anti-child sexual abuse drive: CBI conducts searches in 20 States
I got news for you. I am pretty sure that some people in various countries and cultures think child sex abuse is ok. I used to work for a lawyer who took cases from a porno magazine (not too many, otherwise I would have stopped working for him). That was after I became a Christian--what I consider as a true Christian. (Not necessarily what other people think.) I spoke up about the situation and he explained that the United States allows "freedom of speech." OK, my point is that these magazines and pornography are BIG BIG BUSINESS. And they influence people.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
They do. People in India (whatever religion they follow) are against pornography. But the Supreme Court says that they cannot change the law of freedom of choice. I hope some day government of India will ban pornography and gambling on internet. That is not Indian culture. We are generally conservative people.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I get that a lot. And you might be correct. One definition of arrogant is, "having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities." I confess to having a high regard for my abilities (but not importance). Is it exaggerated, that is, unjustified? Is it conceit or justified self-confidence?
It's certainty and Jehovah speaking when it's from the lips of a Christian. It's arrogance when it's from the lips of a "sinner.":rolleyes:
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Not Jesus? I can tell.

More Jesus, less Paul.

What makes Paul a genius, in your opinion? He never met Jesus. It's odd you don't consider Jesus a genius.
Of course Jesus is the ultimate genius... He has all knowledge. All we ever see is the tip of the iceberg, part of the elephant, we will never have the full picture of truth in this life.
Paul was a genius in understanding the Torah in light of the revelation Jesus brought to it. Try reading "Paul and the faithfulness of God."
By N.T Wright
If you understand even half of it you should get some sense of how deep Paul was.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Ok... If the guy lets a goat suck his pecker its ok because the goat is the one performing it?
Don't you think that's a bit if a stretch?
And, yes, to the Greeks and Romes there was no gay or straight, just men taking female sex roles. Today we'd call that a bottom, and also have the concept of a top (it was of no little importance or concern because it was the active role doing the penetrating).
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Don't you think that's a bit if a stretch?
And, yes, to the Greeks and Romes there was no gay or straight, just men taking female sex roles. Today we'd call that a bottom, and also have the concept of a top (it was of no little importance or concern because it was the active role doing the penetrating).

The "sucker" and the "suckee" are both participating. (Unless the suckee was passed out lol)
 

We Never Know

No Slack
The one getting is just getting some. Seems very passive to me. But he's not the one being penetrated.

He is not being penetrated by the goat either.

My point is, according to you, even though he chose to participate but is not being penetrated, its not gay since he is only receiving.

Back to the goat, if he chose to participate but is not being penetrated, its not bestiality since he is only receiving?
 
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Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
And what is Gods pattern for reveling such major things?

Sometimes folks will tell me that god is revealed in things like sunsets and a baby's laugh, suggesting that they see god reflected in things that poignantly touch them in Creation. While I think if that argument is made, one also has to take into account that the horrific things in nature must then also reflect god, I would suggest that the love I see in my gay friends and family isn't so far off from that hopeful idea of seeing the Lord of Creation in inspiring things. If god represents the good and holy things in nature, then consider how the passion of two people in love compares with the persecution of that love and tell me which reflects your god.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Sometimes folks will tell me that god is revealed in things like sunsets and a baby's laugh, suggesting that they see god reflected in things that poignantly touch them in Creation. While I think if that argument is made, one also has to take into account that the horrific things in nature must then also reflect god, I would suggest that the love I see in my gay friends and family isn't so far off from that. If god represents the good and holy things in nature, then consider how the passion of two people in love compares with the persecution of that love and tell me which reflects your god.

God is about love. Also the big picture. I’m not into persecution of anyone.

That said God has well established pattern. Over and over when there is a major change a prophet is sent. Their teachings align with the concepts of those past, yet they may also direct some changes. We’re God to change his mind on what is sin He can speak through His prophet.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
God is about love. Also the big picture. I’m not into persecution of anyone.

That said God has well established pattern. Over and over when there is a major change a prophet is sent. Their teachings align with the concepts of those past, yet they may also direct some changes. We’re God to change his mind on what is sin He can speak through His prophet.

I don't know...who was the last true prophet in your opinion?
 
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