more and more christians believe in karma and reincarnation

[Sgt. Pepper]

No lack of judgmentalism of your fellow Christians happening there! You do know that all those verses could be any other Christians against you too, if they felt uncomfortable with your views too? Maybe you should look at that? "Judge not, lest you be judged".

The habit of Christians accusing other Christians of not being "true Christians" is as old as Christianity itself (see 1 Corinthians 1:10-17 as an example). There's a name for this kind of accusation now; it's called the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. The real problem I see with Christians accusing other Christians of not being genuine believers is that they can never agree with each other about what the Bible actually says, and they often bicker, belittle, insult, and vigorously debate each other over what they believe the Bible rightly teaches. The irony of all this is that they claim that the Bible is "God's Word" and that Christianity is the only true religion in the world.

 

[firedragon]

https://www.theosophical.org/files/resources/articles/ReincarnationChristianity.pdf has a set of points covering the history of the belief and how a few passages of the Bible can be interpreted to support that belief.

https://epubs.utah.edu/index.php/historia/article/view/578 is another source that goes over the same territory.

Thanks. Maybe I should have said mainstream doctrine.

I have read this. I think the same person shared it before. A few people believe this but it seems to farfetched to me.

Thanks Sun Rise.

 

[firedragon]

There are people who live their lives as humans as if they were worms, and bugs, and rats, and vermin. And that is based upon patterns in their lives that they persist in, that creates the experiences of their lives as such for themselves.

But you miss the actual point of what Karma teaches. It's about reaping what you sow from your patterned behaviors. That is something that touches on human behaviors and psychology. Someone speculating about worms having been bad people in the past is just that. Speculation.

Who knows, and who really cares? And focusing on speculative stuff like that, is just a distraction from the real point of it, which is taking responsibility and changing our karma in order to be better people. Right?

That's not an answer. Its just an order not to ask questions.

Thanks.

 

[firedragon]

Because there are various ideas about reincarnation we should be clear about which one is under discussion. From what I accept, once someone achieves human form, it is utterly rare to lose it. This is of course not the only conception about how the process works.

I understand that the human form is an achievement in Hinduism. But also the concept of Vipaaka must be considered. If the Jaathi of a worm is a Vipaaka of Karma, the worm will also gather Karma and will have vipaaka in order to progress towards a human form which will be the destination Jaathi and the Boga will come based on the Karma at the time of what ever your Jaathi is. Even a worm.

That is why this question arises.

 

[Windwalker]

How can you be Christian if you believe things directly opposite what your sacred text teaches?

How can you be a Christian if you don't accept what the Church of Rome teaches? They believe they are teaching scripture, and you are not.

You do realize that everyone has different ideas of what scripture says? Let alone, what it means? Are you making yourself the judge of all the right answers, as if you have them somehow and no one else does?

Also, can you find me a single verse that says it by one's ideas about God, that one is saved? I can find plenty of verses that says the opposite, that how someone believes is between them and God, and you should mind your own business and not play God. Are you familiar with Romans 14? If not, make that your Bible reading for tonight.

There's lots of warnings in scripture about falling into false teachings. If you can just believe whatever you want and still be a Christian why are those warnings there?

The only thing about teachings that makes them bad or "false", is if they lead to bad fruit. Such as, It's okay to hate those who are not good Christians like you." That would be a false teaching, because it leads Christians to sin.

So, I'd like you to explain how someone believing in reincarnation, which the Bible does not call out as a "false doctrine", affects someone's spiritual life? Does it make them mistreat others and judge others as "not Christian", like some of you are doing to them?

Does believing in reincarnation make them fake Christians, because they act like they are righteous because they claim to have the right doctrines, but mistreat their brothers and sisters in Christ who think differently than them? I think doing that is more sinful than having different ideas about the afterlife, don't you?

 

[Windwalker]

That's not an answer. Its just an order not to ask questions.

Thanks.

I answered the questions clearly. And I pointed that asking about things like worms were bad people before, is highly speculative and not really germain to the discussion. Why is this not a clear answer to you, pray tell?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Also, can you find me a single verse that says it by one's ideas about God, that one is saved?

Of course. Lots. Hebrews 12:2 - Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

What version of God does this indicate saves me?
Only faith in Jesus.


Galatians 2:20 - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Not faith in any God, but in the Son of God who died for me
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

I could go on for a long while.

 

[Wildswanderer]

The only thing about teachings that makes them bad or "false", is if they lead to bad fruit.

Nope.
"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them.
6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.


And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment (Hebrews 9:27).

He remembered that they were but flesh, a passing breeze that does not return (Psalm 78:39).

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:46

 

[Eli G]

Anyone can call himself a "Christian", just as someone who was taken by their parents to be baptized in a Catholic church can say that they are "baptized"... That Catholic baptism does not make anyone a Christian, much less because someone says he is a Christian, he is known by Christ as a real follower.

The Bible does not support the idea of reincarnation. With reference to Jacob and Esau before they were born, it says:

Rom. 9:11 (...) when they had not yet been born and had not practiced anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose respecting the choosing might continue dependent, not on works, but on the One who calls, 12 it was said to her: “The older will be the slave of the younger.”

Whoever says he is "Christian" and believes in reincarnation, is "Christian" only because he wants to name himself that way but not in Christian beliefs (or practices), because he is not learning from what the Bible teaches (Luke 6:46).

 

[firedragon]

I answered the questions clearly. And I pointed that asking about things like worms were bad people before, is highly speculative and not really germain to the discussion. Why is this not a clear answer to you, pray tell?

I think I will cut and paste my response to SunRise so that you may understand my question better.

I understand that the human form is an achievement in Hinduism. But also the concept of Vipaaka must be considered. If the Jaathi of a worm is a Vipaaka of Karma, the worm will also gather Karma and will have vipaaka in order to progress towards a human form which will be the destination Jaathi and the Boga will come based on the Karma at the time of what ever your Jaathi is. Even a worm.

That is why this question arises.

 

[ajay0]

More and more christians believe in karma and reincarnation

Why are Christians adopting Hindu karma & reincarnation ? | Jeffrey Armstrong | Vedic Vidya | India - YouTube

Very interesting video

A question to all. Why do more and more christians believe in karma and reincarnation? What is the reason?

It could be because they were part of their original beliefs of Christianity before it was modified by the Romans later on. Many christian gnostic sects had the belief in reincarnation. Origen is said to have taught reincarnation in his lifetime and it is alleged that when his works were translated into Latin these references were deliberately concealed.

Modern christianity as defined by the church came into existence when christianity was accepted by the romans after centuries of brutal persecution of christians. Many of the roman pagan festivals were transplanted into christianity.

The romans, while being proficient in war, administration and political science, were not adept in spirituality and a religious culture.

The councils of Constantinople and Nicea compiled the biblical scriptures and editted them as per roman sensibilities. All other versions that varied with the roman version was considered heretical and ruthlessly wiped out, and this probably included teachings on reincarnation.

However modern psychiatrists and psychologists like Dr.Brian Weiss, Dr.Ian Stevenson, Dr. Jim Tucker, Dr. Michael Newton and others have uncovered evidences in their practice related to reincarnation and have created a huge body of work in this regard.

Their research work and findings is one of the main reasons for the surge in belief in reincarnation in recent times in the west along with studying the themes of reincarnation in early christianity. The University of Virginia related to medicine has a division devoted to research on reincarnation.

Study of Reincarnation - Division of Perceptual Studies

 

[PearlSeeker]

The Jews believed that the sins of the parents fell on their children.
God and Jesus said, 'Stop with that thinking. Cease it."
The children will answer for their own errors. They will not be made to pay for the sins of their parents.

No. Jesus just said it was not true for that particular case (not in general).

Regarding the question "Did the child sin in the womb, or in a previous life?"
No Jew believed that, so Jesus put those ideas to rest also, with his reply.

The scriptures do not say where the idea came from, but Jews that left Jehovah and mixed with idol worshippers did adopt their beliefs.
They were considered by God, as spiritual prostitutes.
So, it would not be surprising that Jewish cultures may have been the source, and some of these did have an influence on those who then became disciples of Christ.

The question about blind born man shows there was a belief in reincarnation. This concept is also known in Greek philosophy and there were some Hellenistic Jews... Jesus said nothing against it.

It doesn't have anything to do with idol worship. Like belief in heaven and hell that was common in many cultures and also doesn't necessary imply idol worship.

 

[Windwalker]

Of course. Lots. Hebrews 12:2 - Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

What version of God does this indicate saves me?
Only faith in Jesus.

That is not talking about having correct doctrinal beliefs about God. That's talking about faith in God. People can have faith in God, while having different beliefs about God from one another, and all be considered people of faith. No? If you think not, than can you produce any scripture that says "You shall know them by their correct beliefs?"

Galatians 2:20 - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Not faith in any God, but in the Son of God who died for me

How is someone who has different ideas about things like the afterlife, believing in a different God, pray tell? Don't you think that's a little harsh, judgemental, and self-righteous on your part?

This verse has nothing to do with answering my question, "can you find me a single verse that says it by one's ideas about God, that one is saved?" Christian all have different ideas about God, but aren't they all still considered Christians despite that? I'm not familiar with any scriptural support for your view that they are not.

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

I could go on for a long while.

Faith in God, is not the same thing as beliefs about God. People change their beliefs all the time, yet still have faith in God. In fact, faith remains, when all else is doubted. That is what is "saving faith". So far, you have not produced a single verse that says Christians must all believe the same things doctrinally. You can't.

 

[Windwalker]

Nope.
"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

And how do you test the spirits? "A good tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor an evil tree good fruits. Therefore by their fruits you shall know them." This is what I said. This is what Jesus taught. How do you discern those who are "false teachers"? By their fruits.

2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

So by quoting this, you are suggesting that Christians who believe in reincarnation, are denying Jesus Christ is the Son of God? How???? Who made you the Christ?

And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment (Hebrews 9:27).

Yes, that is the one verse you build a theology around that you use to reject all ideas of reincarnation. Yet other Christians who believe in reincarnation are aware of that same verse, but just simply don't read it quite the same as you. Yet, regardless of differences in how people interpret scriptures, you feel righteously justified to judge another man's servant and declare they are denying Jesus Christ?

Wow. You're really bold indeed!! We can never have enough Inquisitors on the Lord's side to protect the true faith from divergent thoughts! As it says in scripture, "The pure in beliefs, shall inherit the earth".

 

[Windwalker]

Am I correct in my understanding that you don't believe the Bible?

No you are not correct. I may not believe in it in the manner in which you do, but I certainly find inspiration in it.

Then why call them my fellow Christians? On what grounds are they my fellow Christians? The Bible, or your view?

Are you saying that only Biblical literalists and innerantists should be considered Christians, and those who don't are not? Unlike you it seem, I see Christianity as embracing a diverse range of views and beliefs about God.

I go by the Bible.

So do other Christians who don't believe the same ways you do about all things. You do understand the the Bible, is something that you have to interpret, right? So you are really going by what you interpret from the Bible. It's not "what the Bible says", as other read the same things you do yet interpret it differently.

Are you suggesting you have the only right interpretation, and everyone but you is wrong? Do you want to admit that here?

Christians are not those who deviated from the apostolic teachings, or teachings of Christ. They are described as apostates, or imitations.

I beg to differ. Again, how you interpret scripture, is not infallible, nor the last word on all understandings. So even if we are to say, "We are built upon the foundation of the Apostles and the prophets", that does not mean you can't ever have any thoughts or ideas other than the ones stated!

That's ridiculous! You miss the part about building on it. Are you suggesting there should be no building, and nothing but the foundation and the foundation alone? How functional or useful is that??

It does not matter who calls them Christian, or if they call themselves that, does it.

If you are declare other Christians not Christians because they have different theological views than you, yes that matters. I'm surprised you don't know this. "Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand." Romans 14

Christians are identified by the criterion given in scripture. Not hearsay.

And what is that criteria? "By their fruits you shall know them". That's it! Not by their doctrinal beliefs and ideas. Where on earth do you get that from, pray tell? Not scripture.

If they feel uncomfortable with my views?
Well that's quite a telling statement.
I don't feel uncomfortable with anyone's views. They are free to believe whatever they want.

And you don't judge them as not Christian, or apostate Christians, or decieved, or lost, or false prophets, or any of these things?

I say, if you have scriptures to support your views. Don't be shy.

I constantly have been sharing verses to back what I've said. For instance, "By their fruits you shall know them". "Who are you to judge another man's servant", and the like. I'm backing up what I say, yet I'm not finding any support for "By their beliefs you shall know them", by those Christians in this thread who are acting as if they have the right to call other Christians as non-Christian, or apostates, or whatever other judgment they are choosing to pass on their fellow-Christians.

In fact, if you truly are a Christian, you won't be.
The scriptures do the judging. I simply quote and apply them.

BS. You are judging. You interpret the Bible in such a way as to judge other Christians. "It's not me saying it! It's the Bible". Bull. It's you.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Faith in God, is not the same thing as beliefs about God. People change their beliefs all the time, yet still have faith in God. In fact, faith remains, when all else is doubted. That is what is "saving faith". So far, you have not prodeuced a single verse that says Christians must all believe the same things doctrinally. You can't.

Lol, obviously you aren't reading the verses. Just belief in God isn't enough. It's very specific about what God is in view. No they don't have to believe everything exactly the same but there's some basics you have to believe to be a Christian.

Like the resurrection, and that Christ came in the flesh and died for mankind.
Like it's appointed onto us to die only once and then be judged.
If you don't believe what the Bible clearly says, don't fool yourself into pretending to be a Christian.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So by quoting this, you are suggesting that Christians who believe in reincarnation, are denying Jesus Christ is the Son of God? How???? Who made you the Christ?

Many Hindu view Jesus as just one of many gods... that's not what the Bible teaches. So yes that would be a false god, not the real Son of the only living God.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

Irrelevant. This is against docetism.

 

[syo]

Why do more and more christians believe in karma and reincarnation? What is the reason?

They are being logical.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Yes, that is the one verse you build a theology around that you use to reject all ideas of reincarnation. Yet other Christians who believe in reincarnation are aware of that same verse, but just simply don't read it quite the same as you.

Hebrews 9:27 says, "Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment," but it conflicts with other verses in the Bible that depict the afterlife. As I wrote in another thread (click here), Hebrews 9:27 conflicts with Daniel 12:2, which says, "And many of those who slumber in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to disgrace and everlasting contempt."

Hebrews 9:27 also conflicts with several other verses that I quoted in my post that I linked to. Personally, I think that it is obvious to see that the Bible isn't exactly clear about what happens in the afterlife. In my opinion and as evidenced in the articles I linked in the parenthesis, the Bible's contradicting itself on its claims about the afterlife isn't the only subject that it contradicts itself with (read BibViz Project-Bible Contradictions, Misogyny, Violence, Inaccuracies interactively visualized and 101 Clear Contradictions In The Bible for plenty of examples). Lastly, I not only believe that the Bible has many contradictions, but I also believe that much of Christianity, as well as some stories in the Bible, were copied from pagan religions that predated both Christianity and the Bible. If you click here, you will see how I demonstrated why I believe that Christianity is heavily influenced by paganism and why I doubt the veracity of the Bible.