Allah's failure to communicate.

[KWED]

Because Books of God is not to just say things straight forward and literal.

Why not? It is god's final guide for all humanity , the means by which they avoid hell. Why wouldn't he make it straightforward and literal?

They are written in a way that people "discover" truth in it, rather than they being told easily!

But because of the confusion and ambiguity, no one knows what "the truth" really is. They can only take a gamble and pick one of the many conflicting versions.
Have you never wondered why there are so many sects and scholars with different interpretations, all claiming the be the correct one? Is that really what Allah wanted? Centuries of disagreement and conflict?

Only if we make an effort, we discover more. Discovering happens through thinking about its verses, but with the intention of discovering truth, free from love and hate feelings.

What you are describing is an entirely subjective process. Which is why it has led to so much disagreement.

This is why, for example 12 Imams are not mentioned explicitly,

They are not mentioned because the authors of the Quran had no idea they would be a thing.

rather they are mentioned using metaphorical verses, those verses that no one knows its interpretation except God.

In which case, how do you know that they are referring to the 12 imams? (You can't)

 

[KWED]

Please explain your scientific knowledge about ahadith.

Science has nothing to do with hadiths (except where they make unscientific claims which science can disprove.)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's quite a damning indictment of religious belief.
It basically says "there are bits of Islam that we can't understand, but we believe in it anyway".
An admission of blind faith based on ignorance.

It is a challenge given to us all. It sorts those that make an effort for Love and those that do not.

The plain verses are there for all to see. They are submission to the wisdom of Allah in the practice of all the virtues, most importantly those of Love, Justice, and Peace.

The consequences of failing to submit to Allah and implement Love, Justice, Virtues and Peace are also plain to see.

Mankind was, and apparently may be still to immature to choose submission to God in the practice of all the virtues, most importantly those of Love, Justice, and Peace.

This is the age where we have been shown that ALL the Messages given from God, were to the benefit of the entire human race. It is only by embracing the Councels given of God, found in all those Messages, that we can find the level of submission required, to enable humanity as a whole to collectively practice all the virtues, but most importantly those of Love, Justice, and Peace.

Ya Baha'ul Abha!

Regards Tony

 

[Link]

Why would "clear signs" need to be interpreted? Allah "made the Qur'an easy". Remember? All of the attempted excuses I've read so far make no sense.

It's because people are immersed in falsehood and given to sorcery of Iblis by which devils control them. So they lose their ability to perceive what is clear due to that. It's easy but per Quran only to those who fear God and have soft hearts. To hard hearts, they won't understand it despite how clear and easy it is to understand and remember through it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why would "clear signs" need to be interpreted? Allah "made the Qur'an easy". Remember? All of the attempted excuses I've read so far make no sense.

Thus is one of the great things about the Word of Allah. The meaning can never be exhausted.

It reminded me of this passage and what happens when we restrict that Word to our own finite understandings. Baha'u'llah has offered,

"Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom...."

This is a great topic to explore, there is a lot written on that topic, it is what enables us in Science and technology.

Here is an example of quotes on that topic.

"We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain." Bahá’u’lláh, The Ki tab-i-Ian, p. 255

"The Books of Bahá’u’lláh number more than one hundred . . . in every word a book of meanings." Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 154

"Bahá’u’lláh also gave in detail, in response to the questioner, several meanings pertaining to the word 'sun', adding that this word has so many other meanings that if ten secretaries were to record His explanations for a period of one or two years, He would still not exhaust its significance." Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 1, p. 29-33

Regards Tony

 

[KWED]

It is a challenge given to us all. It sorts those that make an effort for Love and those that do not.

This does not address my point in any way.
You claimed that you believe and accept stuff that you can't understand.

The plain verses are there for all to see. They are submission to the wisdom of Allah in the practice of all the virtues, most importantly those of Love, Justice, and Peace.

Have you actually read the Quran? Many of the "plain" verses promote intolerance, hatred and violence.

The consequences of failing to submit to Allah and implement Love, Justice, Virtues and Peace are also plain to see.

Are they? What are they then?
What are the unwelcome "consequences" faced by atheists in liberal, secular democracies that people in Iraq, Syria or Pakistan (for example) have avoided?

Mankind was, and apparently may be still to immature to choose submission to God in the practice of all the virtues, most importantly those of Love, Justice, and Peace.

You have it the wrong way round. As mankind matures and becomes more educated and rational, the need for gods declines.

This is the age where we have been shown that ALL the Messages given from God, were to the benefit of the entire human race. It is only by embracing the Councels given of God, found in all those Messages, that we can find the level of submission required, to enable humanity as a whole to collectively practice all the virtues, but most importantly those of Love, Justice, and Peace.

More meaningless platitudes.
Love, justice and peace are better exemplified by liberal, secular democracies than by theocracies.

Ya Baha'ul Abha!

It is quite delusional to believe that the world will one day accept the vague ramblings of some minor, 19th century, self-proclaimed prophet. The religious will stick to the faith they were brought upon in, and the non-religious are not that gullible.

 

[KWED]

Thus is one of the great things about the Word of Allah. The meaning can never be exhausted.

So even when someone gives a definitive explanation of the meaning, there are still countless more different meaning?
How does that make any practical sense? Although it does explain the constant conflict coated by people arguing over what it actually means. Presumably that is all part of Allah's plan. He does seem to relish conflict and intolerance, doesn't he?

"Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom...."

And let me guess, he was one of those "appointed interpreters"?
It's a theme constant in all religions - keep power concentrated in the hands of the clerical elite.

This is a great topic to explore, there is a lot written on that topic, it is what enables us in Science and technology.

Here is an example of quotes on that topic.

"We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain." Bahá’u’lláh, The Ki tab-i-Ian, p. 255

"The Books of Bahá’u’lláh number more than one hundred . . . in every word a book of meanings." Abdu’l-Bahá, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 154

"Bahá’u’lláh also gave in detail, in response to the questioner, several meanings pertaining to the word 'sun', adding that this word has so many other meanings that if ten secretaries were to record His explanations for a period of one or two years, He would still not exhaust its significance." Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 1, p. 29-33

Utter nonsense!
Science relies on very specific, unambiguous terminology. Descriptions are exact and require no interpretation.
Any ideology or process or system that can be interpreted in many different ways is of no practical use.

I get the feeling that you are just repeating scripture without having any real idea of its meaning or implication.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Are they? What are they then?
What are the unwelcome "consequences" faced by atheists in liberal, secular democracies that people in Iraq, Syria or Pakistan (for example) have avoided?

The same fate awaits all that do not heed the advice, beleiver or non-believers, no one is exempt. There are people of all Faiths and no faith that persish as a result of our collective neglect.

The point to consider here is that proclaiming a faith does not necessarily mean one will practice that faith in the virtues of love, justice and peace.

In the age of Muhammad, the Message given in the context of the nature and nurture of the tribes it was presented to, it was the Most Great Justice. For many years those that embraced the faith were slaughtered. Then laws were revealed to enable defence of one's faith.

That many have taken those God given Laws and converted the intent to suit themselves, for material gain, is a warning also given in the Quran.

In fact it is prophecy that it would happen, and it started at the very hour of the passing of Muhammad, where those in want of power and material intent, took the faith from the verbally appointed successor, Ali and as such fulfilled Biblical Prophecy.

The events now unfolding in the world, are a direct result of humanity again rejecting the Councels of the Pen of the Most High.

RegardsTony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I get the feeling that you are just repeating scripture without having any real idea of its meaning or implication.

The same feeling I have that you have no interest in the questions you ask.

But I, for some unknown reason, offer you honest replies, in the hope that you choose to consider a point more deeply than wanting to find a point of ridicule.

I had said goodbye, but yet I did not go. That may be an error I need to rectify in my own person.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That's an absurd concept in general, but even more so in the case of the Qur'an. As I keep saying, Allah thinks he has created "clear signs". He says so several times.

When Quran says, it is a clear Book, it does not mean every verse is understandable fully to everyone. It means, as a whole, the Book is a clear guidance. It has all the signs in it to follow and to guide to the right path. Part of this clearness is when it says, its explanation will be given by Allah, His Prophet and Imams.

I'm sorry, but that goes against logic. It also goes against Allah's claims. If you make a crypto-gram, you're going to get many different interpretations, and much strife as a result. Check out the whole Sunni-Shia ****-show and ask Allah how his cryptic Qur'an is working for him. Again, the absurdity of your position is obvious.

I am not sure why you think so. Allah does not need everyone to be guided to the right path. He does not need anyone. He is God. But those who strive, are guided according to how they strive. We all get what we deserve.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why not? It is god's final guide for all humanity , the means by which they avoid hell. Why wouldn't he make it straightforward and literal?

As we discussed before, I don't believe the Quran is the final guide.

But because of the confusion and ambiguity, no one knows what "the truth" really is. They can only take a gamble and pick one of the many conflicting versions.
Have you never wondered why there are so many sects and scholars with different interpretations, all claiming the be the correct one? Is that really what Allah wanted? Centuries of disagreement and conflict?

Yes, that's how God is. He guides very few, and mostly, are put in confusion, if they do not make an effort.

What you are describing is an entirely subjective process. Which is why it has led to so much disagreement.

I think so too.

They are not mentioned because the authors of the Quran had no idea they would be a thing.

If the 12 Imams are mentioned using symbolic verses, I don't think, we can say they are not mentioned. They are mentioned but not clearly to most people.

In which case, how do you know that they are referring to the 12 imams? (You can't)

Because the Shia Imams interpreted those verses which are about 12 Imams. Even in Sunni Hadithes, there are some Hadithes which says, there will be 12 Successors or leaders after Muhammad. But because they are not mentioned in Quran explicitly, there has been disagreement about them.

 

[KWED]

As we discussed before, I don't believe the Quran is the final guide.

So why has god waited so long to tell us clearly what he wants from us, and why hasn't he done it yet?

Yes, that's how God is. He guides very few, and mostly, are put in confusion,

How is that fair or just or merciful? Why on earth would god deliberately not help people find the truth, even prevent them from finding in? Doesn't he understand what is at stake?

if they do not make an effort.

So you are claiming that billions of devout religionists over the centuries have not "made an effort". All those scholars of all the religions other than Bahai who devoted their entire lives to studying scripture and searching for god simply didn't "make an effort" - but simply accepting the writings of a 19th century Persian nobleman is "making an effort"?
Sounds pretty unlikely.

I think so too.

So you don't know if you have found the truth or been misguided by god or others.

If the 12 Imams are mentioned using symbolic verses, I don't think, we can say they are not mentioned. They are mentioned but not clearly to most people.

You seem confused here.
If they are not mentioned, they are not mentioned.
If you believe that passages that refer to other things are actually referring to the 12 imams, then that is merely your opinion.
If the majority of people don't see that connection, it is clearly not clear, so on what basis do you claim that the connection is there (other than your subjective desire for it to be there)?

Because the Shia Imams interpreted those verses which are about 12 Imams. Even in Sunni Hadithes, there are some Hadithes which says, there will be 12 Successors or leaders after Muhammad. But because they are not mentioned in Quran explicitly, there has been disagreement about them.

Sounds like post hoc rationalisation.
Could you quote those hadith? Thanks.

 

[KWED]

The same fate awaits all that do not heed the advice, beleiver or non-believers, no one is exempt. There are people of all Faiths and no faith that persish as a result of our collective neglect.

You still haven't said that those "consequences" are.

The point to consider here is that proclaiming a faith does not necessarily mean one will practice that faith in the virtues of love, justice and peace.

Indeed. Most religionists seem to cherry pick which parts of scripture to follow. That's why it is an advantage to not subscribe to such ideologies. I don't have to struggle with the contradictions and inconsistencies that you do (as illustrated by your claim that the Quran promotes love, justice and peace when in reality it's more about submission, intolerance and religious supremacism.)

In the age of Muhammad, the Message given in the context of the nature and nurture of the tribes it was presented to, it was the Most Great Justice.

Indeed. The Quran sounds exactly like it was written by 7th century Arabs, for 7th century Arabs.

For many years those that embraced the faith were slaughtered. Then laws were revealed to enable defence of one's faith.

Complete unhistorical nonsense.
Even in the original Islamic texts (hadith, Ibn Ishaq, etc) there are only two recorded killings of Muslims during the 12 years in Mecca. Muhammad and Islam were tolerated, despite their constant blasphemies and insults. Can you imagine the fate of a group in 7th century Medina who constantly blasphemed against Islam and insulted Muhammad? How long would they have lasted? Probably not 12 days, never mind 12 years!
Once Muhammad had gained sufficient political and military power in Medina, it was he who engaged in "slaughter" (the beheading of several hundred helpless Banu Qurayza prisoners is a standout example).

The events now unfolding in the world, are a direct result of humanity again rejecting the Councels of the Pen of the Most High.

Which events, and how are they connected? (Specifics please, not mere platitudes)

 

[KWED]

The same feeling I have that you have no interest in the questions you ask.

But I, for some unknown reason, offer you honest replies, in the hope that you choose to consider a point more deeply than wanting to find a point of ridicule.

I had said goodbye, but yet I did not go. That may be an error I need to rectify in my own person.

I have genuine interest in your replies, which is why I keep asking them when you fail to provide an answer.
Your "honest replies" are usually just platitudes, proselytising and scriptural quotes, often bearing no relation to the question I asked.

I completely understand that it is difficult for you to approach these issues critically and rationally, but that is what I am trying to encourage.
So, when I post a question, read it a few times. Break it down and try to identify what I am asking. When you compose a response, compare it to the question and ask how it addresses the point I raised. Ask yourself if it is likely to satisfy my requirement of evidence and/or rational argument. Keep doing this for every element of your response.

 

[KWED]

When Quran says, it is a clear Book, it does not mean every verse is understandable fully to everyone. It means, as a whole, the Book is a clear guidance. It has all the signs in it to follow and to guide to the right path. Part of this clearness is when it says, its explanation will be given by Allah, His Prophet and Imams.

So basically - "The Quran is a clear and complete guide, but it is not clear and isn't complete".

I am not sure why you think so. Allah does not need everyone to be guided to the right path. He does not need anyone. He is God. But those who strive, are guided according to how they strive. We all get what we deserve.

Allah says he created mankind only to worship him.
If any of mankind does not worship him, his creation is imperfect.
If Allah can fail like that, how can he be god?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You offered this

I have genuine interest in your replies, which is why I keep asking them when you fail to provide an answer...... "

My replies are based on the Writings of all God's Messengers and especially the Writings of the Bab, Baha'u'llah as explained by Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi.

Given you have offered this,

It is quite delusional to believe that the world will one day accept the vague ramblings of some minor, 19th century, self-proclaimed prophet. The religious will stick to the faith they were brought upon in, and the non-religious are not that gullible.

Then as you went further and offered this

"...........Your "honest replies" are usually just platitudes, proselytising and scriptural quotes, often bearing no relation to the question I asked.

Then there is nothing I can and will add.

I will leave it there.

Edit. It does answer the OP, as it shows why people consider the failure is with Allah to communicate, is because those people choose not to listen.

Regards Tony

 

[KWED]

My replies are based on the Writings of all God's Messengers and especially the Writings of the Bab, Baha'u'llah as explained by Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi.

Exactly. You regurgitate religious platitudes and seem incapable of presenting cogent arguments of your own. Those platitudes do not address the points I raise, as I keep explaining.

Edit. It does answer the OP, as it shows why people consider the failure is with Allah to communicate, is because those people choose not to listen.

Wrong. Some of us have listened. I have probably read more Islamic texts and books on Islam than most Muslims. The more I read, the more it is absolutely clear that Islam was invented by 7th century Arabs - which is why it contains so many contradictions, inconsistencies and other flaws.
Ironically, it is believers who don't "listen". Their eyes and ears are closed to critical analysis and rational argument. Childhood indoctrination, wishful thinking, personal incredulity, and a variety of other flawed approaches prevent you from being "guided to the truth".

 

[stevecanuck]

1. Whats the word in these 100s of verses used for "unbelief"?
2. What does it mean according to the surrounding verses and the context of the Qur'an itself?
3. Please list the 100s of verses.

Thanks.



What you mean is if a belief of some people is not in their scripture, its a problem with the scripture, not the people who believe what is not in the scripture? Is not that a manifestation of begging the question?



Please explain your scientific knowledge about ahadith. whats your methodology? Do you believe all of them? Do you believe the Sahih ones are all historically valid? True? Do you take Thdhlees levels into your equation? Do you take the Mathn as primary or the Sanad as primary? Do you take Thaweel al Masaari into the equation? Do you take the school of Medhina as Furqan for ahadith understanding or do you have some other methodology?

Go try to derail someone else's thread. Your transparent attempt at diversion will not work. Not today - not ever. Ma' asalaama

 

[firedragon]

Go try to derail someone else's thread. Your transparent attempt at diversion will not work. Not today - not ever. Ma' asalaama

Pseudo scholarship cannot be genuine. So this is the only type of preaching you could do.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Sounds like post hoc rationalisation.
Could you quote those hadith? Thanks.

From Al-Kafi (Hadith collections book). These Hadithes are with regards to verse 3:7, speaking of who are Well-grounded in knowledge:

‘Abd al-Rahman ibn Kathir narrated from abu ‘bdallah (a.s.) who has said the following. "People well-grounded in Knowledge stands for Amir al-Mu’minin Ali (a.s.) and the Imams after him."


Abu Basir narrated from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) who has said the following. "We are the people well-grounded in knowledge and we are the ones who know how to interpret it."

So why has god waited so long to tell us clearly what he wants from us, and why hasn't he done it yet?

God has been sending Prophets and Messengers to create human civilization by teaching and guiding humanity. But it is a progressive revelation, meaning, whenever humanity has developed more capacity to understand, and have become ready to know more, then God sends another Messenger with a new guidance to teach more.
Specifically in Islam, the next guidance after Muhammad is the Mahdi, aka the Qaim.

How is that fair or just or merciful? Why on earth would god deliberately not help people find the truth, even prevent them from finding in? Doesn't he understand what is at stake?

Because in this world, different creatures are needed. Just as soil, Stone, wood, different animals are needed, in the world of humanity different people are needed. This is why God does not give the same understanding and knowledge to everyone.

There is a good story in the Bible too. Where the owner of the vineyard gives different wages. To some more to some less.

So you are claiming that billions of devout religionists over the centuries have not "made an effort". All those scholars of all the religions other than Bahai who devoted their entire lives to studying scripture and searching for god simply didn't "make an effort" - but simply accepting the writings of a 19th century Persian nobleman is "making an effort"?
Sounds pretty unlikely.

It does seem very unlikely.

So you don't know if you have found the truth or been misguided by god or others.

You seem confused here.
If they are not mentioned, they are not mentioned.
If you believe that passages that refer to other things are actually referring to the 12 imams, then that is merely your opinion.
If the majority of people don't see that connection, it is clearly not clear, so on what basis do you claim that the connection is there (other than your subjective desire for it to be there)?

Some of The verses of Quran can only be interpreted by those who are well-grounded in knowledge. Such verses talking about 12 Imams, were revealed symbolically, and then Muhammad and Imams provided their interpretation. If one was to follow the Quran, he needs to see how Muhamamd and Imams interpreted the verses, rather than using how own imagination.