Atheists have faith.

[ChristineM]

So do I.

Yet you accept your reliions misogyny and don't consider it a problem. Fair enough

 

[PureX]

Energy isn't a creative force. It's just material. This material behaves according to the laws of physics.

From wiki:

"In physics, energy is the quantitative property that must be transferred to a body or physical system to perform work on the body, or to heat it. Energy is a conserved quantity; the law of conservation of energy states that energy can be converted in form, but not created or destroyed. The unit of measurement in the International System of Units (SI) of energy is the joule, which is the energy transferred to an object by the work of moving it a distance of one metre against a force of one newton.
​

So basically, energy is "work". It is the expression of forces interacting to make things happen.

Common forms of energy include the kinetic energy of a moving object, the potential energy stored by an object's position in a force field (gravitational, electric or magnetic), the elastic energy stored by stretching solid objects, the chemical energy released when a fuel burns, the radiant energy carried by light, and the thermal energy due to an object's temperature."
​

These are all the different categories of effects which those interacting forces make happen.

So energy is not material. Material isn't really even material. Existence is an organized system of interactive forces, and energy is the expression of that interactivity.

There is no source code. Matter just behaves according to the laws of physics.

The "laws of physics" are the source code. They determine how and when the energy 'works' and how and when it doesn't. Which then determines what can exist and what can't.

If the limitation is how some humans have to distort the mundane facts of reality because it doesn't satisfy their need for meaning nor soothe their anxiety about death, then I agree. A detached understanding of how tings are true is a stark slap in the face for those who can't manange their anxiety about death and oblivion.

You're forgetting (ignoring) the fact that the ways we humans characterize the mystery of existence are themselves part of the mystery of existence. A mystery that you have not unraveled any more than any other human has. So, really, you're in no position to be dismissing anyone else.

 

[PureX]

What it known is that there was a singularity. [/QUOTE[]We have no idea what that even means. Not you, not anyone. It would be a 'way of existing' that doesn't exist, anywhere.

This mass of energy existed and expanded. We only know what happened 1/43 of a second after the expansion began.

What mass of energy? How does a "mass of energy" exist by itself, doing nothing, in nothingness? How does it originate? How is it being "transferred" as you claimed it must be? And from what to what?

What if I label that singularity "God". And I label that giant mass of latent energy God's blueprint for existence, just waiting to be set to "work". And then, BANG, suddenly it's all set in motion. "Let there be light!" (And heat!) Let there be laws governing this explosion of energy that cause it to be expressed as light, heat, space, matter, motion, time, and so on. And then here we are, billions of years on in the 'plan', speculating on the mysterious source, sustenance, and purpose of it all. Just as the blueprint dictated that we would be.

Science has no obligation to assume religious concepts.

Nor does it have any obligation not to. Something you seem to reject, furiously.

 

[PureX]

We can come up with conjectures, like something existing prior to the BB or some higher dimensional space that our space-time might be embedded in, but nobody is going to take them seriously unless you have some justification for said conjectures.

First you have to understand the language. And you can't do that by dismissing it as senseless simply because you DON'T understand it.

 

[ratiocinator]

First you have to understand the language. And you can't do that by dismissing it as senseless simply because you DON'T understand it.

What language do you think I'm not understanding?

On the other hand, there are concepts in science that you clearly don't understand, and should probably take the trouble to do so before talking about them as if you did understand them.

 

[PureX]

What language do you think I'm not understanding?

On the other hand, there are concepts in science that you clearly don't understand, and should probably take the trouble to do so before talking about them as if you did understand them.

I understand them as well as you do. Especially that energy is not material.

 

[ratiocinator]

I understand them as well as you do.

No, you don't. It should be easy for you to check (if you could be bothered). For example, on space expanding into something:-

The expansion of the universe is the increase in distance between any two given gravitationally unbound parts of the observable universe with time. It is an intrinsic expansion whereby the scale of space itself changes. The universe does not expand "into" anything and does not require space to exist "outside" it. Technically, neither space nor objects in space move. Instead it is the metric (which governs the size and geometry of spacetime itself) that changes in scale. As the spatial part of the universe's spacetime metric increases in scale, objects become more distant from one another at ever-increasing speeds.​

-- Expansion of the universe​

Especially that energy is not material.

No, it's a property of material things and systems of things. I've already given you multiple references for that (as have others), which you just ignored. You don't understand things by just making stuff up and then asserting that you understand them, you actually have to be bothered to learn about them.

 

[ecco]

"The whole of Jerusalem". WOW! Yet not one single person wrote about it - not one.

Mate, the snooty priests and dumb romans were going around arresting anybody who dared whisper the word "Jesus", so no wonder most people kept their heads down!

What a silly cop-out. People didn't write about it because:
A. They didn't give a crap about some itinerant nobody claiming to be the predicted Messiah.
B. There never was a Jesus. Just a bunch of old men concocting a new religion based on the Hebrew's hope for a Messiah.

Nevertheless, 27 books (the New T) did slip through the net and get published..

Yeah. Nothing contemporaneous though. That should bother any rational person. The books that were written, well after the alleged lifetime of Jesus, pretend to be first-hand accounts when it is clear that they are not. That should bother any rational person. It's like people were trying to fool the masses.

Nevertheless, 27 books (the New T) did slip through the net and get published..

All holy books - right? All god's words - right? Mortals culled through the writings and decided which stories and which authors supported their viewpoint and which did not. Those that didn't make the cut, like Marcion, were labeled heretics, and their works were destroyed.

 

[ecco]

I never saw Elvis but I know enough about his life to be able to write a book about him if I wanted, as could many people, right Elv?

On what would you base your writings? On word of mouth? On the writings of others? If no one wrote about Elvis for 100 years after his death, whose words would you copy? If there were no recordings of Elvis' songs, and no one sang them for 100 years, how would you be able to quote the lyrics accurately?

Your analogy is senseless and meaningless except to show how ridiculous your comment about writing a book really is. It's sad you didn't see that before you posted.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, as noted in this OP, I see faith is manifested in deeds and as such any athiest that lives a life of deeds that are contributing to the betterment of humanity, then in reality they are demonstrating a strong faith.

This passage is worthy of discussion.

"As you have faith, so shall your power and blessings be, this is the balance, this is the balance, this is the balance". (Abdulbaha)

So for a Baha'i Faith is to live the life as shown by the example of Abdu'lbaha.

Abdul'baha lived a life of virtues, morality and non stop deeds in service to humanity and thus the power I see Abdu'lbaha talks about, is the power over one own self to be a servant to all.

So it appears the OP may be showing that an athiest will not conclude that they have faith if they also choose virtues, morals and a life of service, but it can indeed be seen that they can demonstrate what it is to have faith.

Regards Tony

 

[ecco]

So, as noted in this OP, I see faith is manifested in deeds and as such any athiest that lives a life of deeds that are contributing to the betterment of humanity, then in reality they are demonstrating a strong faith.

What kind of faith? Faith in what?

Sometimes your comments are as vague and meaningless as the writings of Ballulah.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What kind of faith? Faith in what?

Sometimes your comments are as vague and meaningless as the writings of Baha'u'llah.

Faith that what they do is the right thing to do.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet you accept your reliions misogyny and don't consider it a problem. Fair enough

No, I do not accept misogyny.

You are free to believe that the UHJ being all men is misogyny but I am also free to point out that you are committing the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions since you are clueless as to WHY it is comprised only of men.

The fact that the UHJ is only men does not indicate a dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women. That is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization because you are generalizing about the entire religion based upon only one of its institutions.

misogyny
dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=misogny+means

 

[ChristineM]

No, I do not accept misogyny.

You are free to believe that the UHJ being all men is misogyny but I am also free to point out that you are committing the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions since you are clueless as to WHY it is comprised only of men.

The fact that the UHJ is only men does not indicate a dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women. That is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization because you are generalizing about the entire religion based upon only one of its institutions.

misogyny
dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=misogny+means

Being all men?? Women are barred, end of story. You may excuse the barring of women on whatever grounds makes you happy yet still women are barred.

 

[Trailblazer]

Being all men?? Women are barred, end of story. You may excuse the barring of women on whatever grounds makes you happy yet still women are barred.

I do not need to excuse what has been put in place by God since God can never make a mistake so can never need excuses.
Only fallible humans make mistakes and they make plenty of them.

 

[ChristineM]

I do not need to excuse what has been put in place by God since God can never make a mistake so can never need excuses.
Only fallible humans make mistakes and they make plenty of them.

Yet you excuse the banning of women to tour churches high and mighty governing body.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet you excuse the banning of women to tour churches high and mighty governing body.

As I said before, I do not need to excuse anything that God has ordained through Baha'u'llah because God does not need any excuses for what He ordains.

The Universal House of Justice (UHJ) is not a church or a high and mighty governing body.

Since you seem to want to press the issue, I feel obligated to offer some clarification so I will leave you with some posts that were posted about three years ago on Baha'i Forums on a thread entitled Women on the UHJ.

Does anyone have any ideas what I can say to a nonbeliever who thinks that the Baha'i Faith is harmful and anti-human because it excludes women from the UHJ? He says we exclude half the human population from leadership roles but of course he does not understand that women are only excluded from the UHJ because he is in such a huff and he has made up his mind that the Baha'i Faith is no good based upon this one thing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There are no Leadership Roles in the Baha'i Faith. There are many other elected positions as a body and appointed positions in the arms of Learned, that women are appointed to serve upon.

To me this is a bounty, it frees women to serve, free of the current longer obligation on the Universal House of Justice.

I think it will be a simple explanation, like a person can have no desire to serve on the Universal House of Justice. Thus women do not have to have this battle on mind.

Or even more simple, it is Law. We now know that God sees both Men and Women as equals, we are distinguished in the eyes of God by our efforts to serve.

Only in the future will the reason be obvious. At this time there will be no explanation you can offer that will appease minds that wish to see it as inequality.

Regards Tony
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We can note that the Universal House of Justice has only 9 members, whereas there are nearly 200 National Assemblies each with 9 members including women, and something like 10,000 or more Local Assemblies, plus the Counsellors, Auxuliary Board Members and Assistants, Area Teaching Committee members, and many other positions of leadership and service. Women are at the forefront of leadership throughout the Baha'i world.

In light of that fact, it is a mystery why Baha'u'llah designated the Universal House of Justice as being composed of only men, and no one knows the answer. There are many mysteries of life that Baha'u'llah has unlocked and provided the means to understand, including endorsement of scientific investigation of the natural world. There is always more that we do not yet understand and that can keep us humble, but also striving to reach higher levels of understanding. Furthermore, although Baha'u'llah taught the equality of men and women, the world has a long way to go to catch up, and we need to evaluate every aspect of society and relations within the family to ensure that they reflect that equality. Having the one institution composed of only men can encourage us to reflect deeply on these relations.

 

[ChristineM]

The Universal House of Justice (UHJ) is not a church or a high and mighty governing body.

Since you seem to want to press the issue, I feel obligated to offer some clarification so I will leave you with some posts that were posted about three years ago on Baha'i Faith on a thread entitled Women on the UHJ.

Does anyone have any ideas what I can say to a nonbeliever who thinks that the Baha'i Faith is harmful and anti-human because it excludes women from the UHJ? He says we exclude half the human population from leadership roles but of course he does not understand that women are only excluded from the UHJ because he is in such a huff and he has made up his mind that the Baha'i Faith is no good based upon this one thing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There are no Leadership Roles in the Baha'i Faith. There are many other elected positions as a body and appointed positions in the arms of Learned, that women are appointed to serve upon.

To me this is a bounty, it frees women to serve, free of the current longer obligation on the Universal House of Justice.

I think it will be a simple explanation, like a person can have no desire to serve on the Universal House of Justice. Thus women do not have to have this battle on mind.

Or even more simple, it is Law. We now know that God sees both Men and Women as equals, we are distinguished in the eyes of God by our efforts to serve.

Only in the future will the reason be obvious. At this time there will be no explanation you can offer that will appease minds that wish to see it as inequality.

Regards Tony
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We can note that the Universal House of Justice has only 9 members, whereas there are nearly 200 National Assemblies each with 9 members including women, and something like 10,000 or more Local Assemblies, plus the Counsellors, Auxuliary Board Members and Assistants, Area Teaching Committee members, and many other positions of leadership and service. Women are at the forefront of leadership throughout the Baha'i world.

In light of that fact, it is a mystery why Baha'u'llah designated the Universal House of Justice as being composed of only men, and no one knows the answer. There are many mysteries of life that Baha'u'llah has unlocked and provided the means to understand, including endorsement of scientific investigation of the natural world. There is always more that we do not yet understand and that can keep us humble, but also striving to reach higher levels of understanding. Furthermore, although Baha'u'llah taught the equality of men and women, the world has a long way to go to catch up, and we need to evaluate every aspect of society and relations within the family to ensure that they reflect that equality. Having the one institution composed of only men can encourage us t
reflect deeply on these relations.

You know im dyslexic and so you probably guessed i wouldn't read most of your post. I will say i am pressing nothing, i have made a statement based on my knowledge and on fact. Sorry you don't like it but looking at the internet there are enough people who agree with me to make me believe my opinion is accurate.

 

[Trailblazer]

You know im dyslexic and so you probably guessed i wouldn't read most of your post. I will say i am pressing nothing, i have made a statement based on my knowledge and on fact. Sorry you don't like it but looking at the internet there are enough people who agree with me to make me believe my opinion is accurate.

Your statement is based on your limited knowledge and limited facts. As such, it a 'biased' personal opinion, based on limited information. I don't care if you read what I posted. This is a public forum and I posted it so people would have accurate information. They can do whatever they want to with that information.

Your personal opinion does not bother me so I neither like it or dislike it.

Sorry you don't like it but looking at the internet there are enough people who agree with me to make me believe my opinion is accurate.

Enough people agree with you so that shows that your opinion is accurate?

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

 

[URAVIP2ME]

This one doesn't. Which god are you talking about anyway? Theists have to have faith that most gods don't exist, as well as that their chosen version does.

The God of the Bible who is represented by the Tetragrammaton YHWH