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No more babies being delivered at NY hospital

F1fan

Veteran Member
Where is public health if there is no health workers.
Every citizen has a responsibility for public health. It's not a society of "do anything you damn well please, and the healthcare system will try to offset poor judgments". Experts in public health have made guidelines very clear to help overall public health and reduce the spread of Covid. There has been a direct opposition to expertise and guidelines by the political Right for reasons that are idealistic and dangerous. And we have over 662,000 citizens dead.

The vaccines aren't a cure. Having had Covid doesn't mean your card is stamped and you're safe. Letting Covid run rampant means people are going to keep getting sick in an ongoing cycle. And the way virus work it will continue to mutate with so many viable hosts, and some new variants will be more deadly then the previous.

Can any conservative explain how this scenario is the best approach for the USA?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
The goal is that a high percentage of citizens gets vaccinated within a window of time, and this reduces the spread of the virus, and the severity, to a degree that the virus should not be able to thrive due to lack of vulnerable hosts.

This is what experts in pandemics say. There is too much disinformation that is making poorly informed citizens feel like they need to avoid the vaccine. The irony is many of these people are now being exposed, getting deathly ill, many hospitalized, and a growing number dying. It's karma at work.

But it is also hurting people like me who has lost work, income, and ruined my plans for racing this fall. It screws up lives. To the Right this is fantastic. They don't want the Democrats or experts to be correct in what they say about the pandemic. As long as the pandemic remains a serious problem it makes the administration look bad. And the administration decides to set mandates, and the Right makes that another issue to attack the administration.

So far we have 83% so far on the states. US Coronavirus vaccine tracker I think Biden is trying to get 90%. We're pretty close. The unvaccinated that makeup 20% could be exempt, choose not, antivax, not near vax place, choose not cause of low risk level. Number of reasons. It'll probably shrink as time goes on given the mandates.

I don't see it that way. To me that's like saying people shouldn't have gone to work even though they didn't know they'd die in 911. Assuming catching COVID or suffering traumatic events are under our control. They say vaccinated can spread the virus so that puts a loophole in that argument.

In my opinion
I don't see how many provaxxers caring if they laugh at some people with COVID and not others. I see no difference in suffering.

Look how many people are saying the vaccines aren't working. But they never said to be cures. The rhetoric is getting more severe, and the Right seems to be winning the fight against America.

I don't keep up with them. They are a minority. But on RF I see people question the efficiency of the vaccine (as we should ALL meds and vaccines) but only one saying it doesn't work comparing it to poison.

There are people with conditions that make them need to avoid the vaccine and exposure to Covid. That is an issue they have with their doctors, and they need to design a strategy to navigate a society that includes many irresponsible members who are indifferent to the lives of others.

Yes. They can still spread the virus. Which is weird cause if you have five unvaccinated exempt people with a vax person I assume they'd be ok but if one non exempt was in the same room they won't.

My guess it's not about the spread.

Imagine if you went into society and knew any one of the people you encountered could kill you, but never be held accountable for it.

I don't see it that way. I'd be in a psych ward (no pun) if I thought people would kill me cause I thought everyone walked around with guns in their pockets. That's a sign of fear.

I am in that type of society, before, during, and will after COVID.

Well, only 70-80% of a population need to be vaccinated to reach herd immunity. That number may be higher now with the Delta variant because it is more contagious and replicates copies in higher numbers. The small number of medical exempt people are likely to avoid being in public given the huge risk of exposure to Covid, so they are unlikely

83% so far in the states but for some reason that's not enough.

I see the solution going beyond vaccines really. But masks and vaccines were our second line of defense after lock downs. Now what.
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
If you are really fearful, get the vaccine.
I'm not fearful. I had no fear about getting my shots. No anxiety at all. My athletic performance stayed the same this spring, and was getting better this summer. Most athletes in the world have gotten vaccinations. They still perform to the same level.


Then you are protected.
You have an advantage, you aren't fully protected. The vaccine works to build antibodies so if you are infected your body already has the ability to destroy the virus before it can use your body as its host and replicate. The fewer virus you inhale the better your ability to fight it. If you inhale a strong concentration of the virus then your body won't have enough antibodies to destroy the virus before it can start replicating.

People who are tired and have compromised immune systems will be more susceptible to any bacteria or virus.


If someone doesn't, and the get infected, it was their life to decide... just as we decide if we smoke, drink or take drugs.
Yet if they get infected and then spend time in public then they are putting others at risk before they know they are contagious. The guy who infected the wedding I attended did not know he was infected until the day after the event. By then it was too late.

And be aware that smoking in public is illegal. The reason is because the right to clean air supercedes the freedom to smoke. That same thinking applies to an even more deadly airborne thing, Covid.

Is my right to be safe in public superseded by the right of another to spread Covid because they don't think it's serious?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I'm not fearful. I had no fear about getting my shots. No anxiety at all. My athletic performance stayed the same this spring, and was getting better this summer. Most athletes in the world have gotten vaccinations. They still perform to the same level.



You have an advantage, you aren't fully protected. The vaccine works to build antibodies so if you are infected your body already has the ability to destroy the virus before it can use your body as its host and replicate. The fewer virus you inhale the better your ability to fight it. If you inhale a strong concentration of the virus then your body won't have enough antibodies to destroy the virus before it can start replicating.

People who are tired and have compromised immune systems will be more susceptible to any bacteria or virus.



Yet if they get infected and then spend time in public then they are putting others at risk before they know they are contagious. The guy who infected the wedding I attended did not know he was infected until the day after the event. By then it was too late.

And be aware that smoking in public is illegal. The reason is because the right to clean air supercedes the freedom to smoke. That same thinking applies to an even more deadly airborne thing, Covid.

Is my right to be safe in public superseded by the right of another to spread Covid because they don't think it's serious?

If a hundred of people were in a room and one person was infected, how would you know whether the infected was unvaccinated or not given both can spread the virus?

Can you tell objectively and not confirmation biased?

An expert can tell by tests but layman do not have that. The only thing we have is unvaccinated is more likely to catch the virus (data or not) than vax but that's a fallacy. Rarity doesnt exclude possibility.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Boy, you really have a knack for not being able to process more than one sentence at a time.
Staying 6 feet away is actually impossible if you go to the store, post office or a restaurant. If you want to avoid all virus', you have to avoid people, period. What is hard to understand about that? That piece of cloth isn't going to save you.
Saw a woman on the bike trail, out in the open air, not close to anyone but her husband, with a hanky over her face. Those people make me want to cry. They have bought into the comply at all costs, hook, line, and sinker. At that point, I have to think it's just blind compliance, devoid of any reason.
 

Alienistic

Anti-conformity
This is making me reconsider my stance against denying medical care to people who refuse to be vaccinated.

I mean, ideally, everyone should receive whatever medical care they need, but if people are going to be denied care no matter what, I'd much rather it be an anti-vaxer who's denied care than a pregnant person who's done nothing wrong.

The medical staff have delivered babies just fine and provided medical care for all patients for a long time throughout this virus before a vaccine existed.... so what changes now other than simply a “mandate?”
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
So far we have 83% so far on the states. US Coronavirus vaccine tracker I think Biden is trying to get 90%. We're pretty close. The unvaccinated that makeup 20% could be exempt, choose not, antivax, not near vax place, choose not cause of low risk level. Number of reasons. It'll probably shrink as time goes on given the mandates.
Your link says this:

At least 209,437,152 people or 64% of the population have received at least one dose.

Overall, 178,692,875 people or 54% of the population have been fully vaccinated.


The 83% is the amount of vaccines used.

So the USA is well below the level we need for herd immunity.

I don't see it that way. To me that's like saying people shouldn't have gone to work even though they didn't know they'd die in 911. Assuming catching COVID or suffering traumatic events are under our control. They say vaccinated can spread the virus so that puts a loophole in that argument.
No one knew there was going to be a errors attack on 9-11. We all know Covid is all around us, and there are ways to limit the spread: mask use and vaccination.

In my opinion
I don't see how many provaxxers caring if they laugh at some people with COVID and not others. I see no difference in suffering.
I'm not sure what you mean.


Yes. They can still spread the virus. Which is weird cause if you have five unvaccinated exempt people with a vax person I assume they'd be ok but if one non exempt was in the same room they won't.

My guess it's not about the spread.
We still need more testing and more access. People are getting exposed without knowing it and infecting others. I was face to face with clients three days after i was exposed and that evening I started feeling sick. Luckily I did not infect anyone. But I quarantined until I could get a test. But I knew by then that people at the wedding I attended were testing positive.


I don't see it that way. I'd be in a psych ward (no pun) if I thought people would kill me cause I thought everyone walked around with guns in their pockets. That's a sign of fear.
But Covid is real, and people are actually getting infected in public. Its just that many don't give a **** and think it's just the flu. I never feared Covid but I know I didn't want it. I got vaccinated and wore my masks in public. I just happened to get shot in the back, along with about 60 others, by a Covid assassin. We trusted everyone would respect the event and family/friends. But it just took one selfish guy.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
If a hundred of people were in a room and one person was infected, how would you know whether the infected was unvaccinated or not given both can spread the virus?

Can you tell objectively and not confirmation biased?

An expert can tell by tests but layman do not have that. The only thing we have is unvaccinated is more likely to catch the virus (data or not) than vax but that's a fallacy. Rarity doesnt exclude possibility.
It’s not a fallacy that someone unvaccinated is at higher risk of catching a disease. That’s how vaccines have worked for the last century. All vaccines. Ever hear of small pox? Hell, Chicken pox even?
It’s a simple matter of statistics and already studied patterns of infections. Not just COVID but literally every single disease that is contagious. We have so much data and established research on how infection works, what rates vaccines slows it down and how the unvaccinated spread insert disease here that it might as well be a formality to check if the disease spreader is unvaccinated at this stage. Now I’m not saying that a vaccinated person can’t still spread diseases. But it will automatically be at a lower rate than the unvaccinated. I’m sorry that’s just reality and is true for any contagious disease

Medical fact. It is far more likely that a disease will be spread by a person who is unvaccinated, period. This wasn’t a concept that was invented when COVID hit the scene either. This is true for literally every single contagious disease we currently vaccinate for.
There’s like at least a century and a half worth of medical science at play. This isn’t a new concept at all. It’s not like there weren’t contagious diseases before the advent of COVID. We have studied infection, throughly and completely. Just because COVID is new doesn’t mean it’s infection patterns will suddenly go against already long established science
 
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Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
What kind of freedoms are being suppressed by whistleblowers?

Like a company's freedom to dump toxic waste in a river when it is prohibited for the sake of public health?
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about red flag laws that encourage people to rat on their neighbors.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
The family did a check on who got sick and when they first started feeling symptoms. The bride's uncle got sick the day after the event. He has been a proud anti-vaxxer. Everyone else didn't have symptoms until Tuesday to Thursday. Over 60 people tested positive for Covid within the week of the event. Everyone who got sick was vaccinated except the uncle.

I'm not sure how many of the event space staff got sick. They had perhaps 10 people serving dinner and drinks, so that company certainly faced being shut down for several weeks. That meant cancelling the events they had planned for the next few weeks.

Can you see how the selfishness of one person can trickled down to the lives of others, and be devastating? One person's poor judgment.

As I keep saying, if a person doesn't want to be vaccinated, fine. Just don't go around other people.
I still don't see how you know who infected who. At best, you are guessing.
So, if you were all vaccinated, I would say your vaccinations were pretty useless.
And you could have spread it just as easily as anyone.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about red flag laws that encourage people to rat on their neighbors.
Those laws are pretty dubious, but they are a response to rampant irresponsible behaviors in society. It's much like the Karens who call police on black people who are minding their own business. These red flag laws should come with penalties if the person reporting some behavior is not accurate.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Gotta love dictatorial leadership ;)
Is that why Trump frequently praised "strong leaders" like Putin, Kim, and even Saddam Hussein? :p

And a reminder that Trump also tried to enforce mandates on states, such a trying to negate California's strict air-pollution laws.

Trump was no conservative, neither fiscal, nor political, nor social [with the main exception of abortion that he used as a wedge-issue to try and win the Republican nomination and get elected].

iow, he "played" people who were on the right by saying he was a conservative but then typically doing the opposite much of the time.

BTW, Reagan also played that "card" quite effectively, and the reality is that he spent money like a "drunken sailor", as one conservative economist lamented, and actually increased the size of the federal government. He talked-the-talk but didn't walk-the-walk, and some of the truly conservatives were not at all happy with that.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
It’s not a fallacy that someone unvaccinated is at higher risk of catching a disease. That’s how vaccines have worked for the last century. All vaccines. Ever hear of small pox? Hell, Chicken pox even?
It’s a simple matter of statistics and already studied patterns of infections. Not just COVID but literally every single disease that is contagious. We have so much data and established research on how infection works, what rates vaccines slows it down and how the unvaccinated spread insert disease here that it might as well be a formality to check if the disease spreader is unvaccinated at this stage.

Medical fact. It is far more likely that a disease will be spread by a person who is unvaccinated, period. This wasn’t a concept that was invented when COVID hit the scene either. This is true for literally every single contagious disease we currently vaccinate for.
There’s like at least a century and a half worth of medical science at play. This isn’t a new concept at all. It’s not like there weren’t contagious diseases before the advent of COVID. We have studied infection, throughly and completely. Just because COVID is new doesn’t mean it’s infection patterns will suddenly go against already long established science

The fallacy is rarity excludes probability. For example, it's rare that I will catch lung cancer because (say) 90% who catch it has smoked. Rarity doesn't mean certainty. I could be the unlucky 10%. So, rarity is a strong defense just don't use it to exclude probability I may get cancer.

It's the argument that's a fallacy. The topic is irrelevant.
 

Alienistic

Anti-conformity
Well, clearly they are not at all concerned about anyone else's health. So why should they work in health care. And yes, it is one of the purposes of government to dictate public policy, especially in an emergency, and especially for the sake of public health.

Why would this be good riddance? This staff has been on the frontlines delivering babies, caring for patients throughout this entire virus long before and even after a vaccine existed..are highly trained in medical hygiene and protection.

They are suddenly not welcome, don’t care about anyone else health (when this has been all they’ve been doing) or equipped to do their jobs any longer over a mandate?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I still don't see how you know who infected who. At best, you are guessing.
There are knowns about how the virus is processed in the body. It takes 3-7 days for Covid to do its thing. That the uncle was sick the day after the event indicates he was already exposed. No one else got sick until 3 or more days later. That's called deduction.

So, if you were all vaccinated, I would say your vaccinations were pretty useless.
No. Vaccines are not cures, they help the body fight a virus. So vaccinated people can still get sick, it's just not going to be as bad if unvaccinated. That's why the vast majority of those being hospitalized and dying are the unvaccinated. Very few vaccinated people.

And you could have spread it just as easily as anyone.
Except I had a very strict protocol for myself. I always wear a mask in public, maintain a distance, and limit my time anywhere.

I was lucky to not infect my clients since they were very cautious themselves. I quarantined myself until I tested negative. That is what a responsible citizen does. Do you disagree?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Ah, so he didn't know all along that this thing came from a lab? Sorry if I'm a little skeptical...
No one knows if it came from that lab, nor whether it arose by accident or intent. Maybe do some reading on this, and recent articles in Scientific American can help reduce your ignorance on the subject and also see how good scientists actually work.

Secondly, even though various covid viruses had previously been around, covid-19 quickly established that it could kill more than previous strains, so it was a learning process all along.

Thus, unlike Trump who claimed that he knew more about war than all of the generals, Fauci acted like all intelligent and honest scientists do-- he told the truth as he increasingly knew it but also expressed hesitation in areas that were unclear.

You, otoh, jumped to an unwarranted conclusion about the lab above, so you have no room to talk whatsoever.
 
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