Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Tiberius]

No religion except the Baha'i Faith has done this:

Have a worldwide community worshiping God, who uses to be divided across many Faiths, races nations and gender. That have embraced that message and changed their lives to embrace the Oneness of Humanity, the Oneness of God and the Oneness of all Messengers.

Christianity has done it.

Worldwide? Check.
Lots of people are Christian who used to be other faiths? Check.
Lots of different races? Check
Practiced in many nations? Check.
People of all genders are Christians? Check.
Preaching that all people are one? Check.
Preaching that there is one God? Check.

And the last one is just a Baha'i specific claim designed to eliminate all others, so it can be discounted. It's like if I was to say, "The Best TV show is one that explores the Human condition, has memorable characters, can tell stories that are both dramatic or comedic, can explore issues the we face in our everyday lives but in ways that allow us to see them from new perspectives, and were created by Gene Roddenberry and starred William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy."

 

[Tiberius]

I did not say that it did prove that, I only ever said it is "part" of the evidence that indicates that He was sent by God.

I suspect that if I was to ask for the other parts of this evidence, I'd find that, like the writing, they can all happen without requiring a God.

What Stephen King wrote does not matter because he never claimed to be a Messenger of God. Also, he does not meet any of those other criteria I listed, remember those?

Irrelevant. You presented prolific and fast writing as evidence that Mr B was from God. If it is evidence that one person was from God, it must also be equivalent evidence that anyone else who has done it is also from God. Otherwise you are committing the special pleading fallacy yet again.

I never said that Baha'u'llah penned everything in His own hand. He had secretary who wrote some of His Writings and after they were completed He carefully checked them and then He stamped them with His official seal. Baha'u'llah was poisoned twice and after that it was difficult for Him to write because He had a tremor in His hand for the rest of His life.

So then it's not really how much he WROTE, it's how much he SPOKE and had other people write down. Lots of people can say a lot, and if you get ten people writing the words down, they can write much more than a single person.

 

[Tiberius]

Oh Lord Jesus! Of course the real world is viewed differently by different people!
I might see a brand new red car and think it is ugly whereas another person would think it is beautiful. We all interpret what we see in the real world differently because no two brains think alike.

And you miss the point.

Both people would agree that there was a brand new car that was coloured red.

You would not have one person saying, "It's a brand new red car," and another person saying, "No, it's a group of hippy musicians rehearsing for Woodstock."

Having different subjective opinions about objective facts regarding the real world is NOT the same thing as holding that the objective facts about the real world are different to different people.

 

[Tiberius]

Harry Potter is "known" to be a fictional character in a book. That is how we know he is not a real person.

Fictional stories can be written about God, who can stop people from doing that? But that does not mean that God is not real. God is not known to be fictional or real, so people can choose to believe either way.

Known how? You have a very bad habit of making claims and not supporting them.

In any case, your argument here boils down to, "Well, you can't prove it's NOT true!"

 

[Tiberius]

Just because @Truthseeker hasn't shown you what you are missing out on that does not mean you are not missing out on anything. That is illogical.

Doesn't prove I AM missing out either.

Again the weak argument of "You can't prove it's NOT true."

 

[CG Didymus]

It does not matter if it is symbolic or not, it only matters if it literally happened or not. If you do not believe Jesus rose from the dead why does it matter so much to you what Abdu'l-Baha said?

Jesus is dead and gone and not coming back, that is clear from the verses where Jesus says He is not coming back and that His work is finished here.

It matters because it makes the gospel stories a lie. Calling everything that happened after he was killed allegorical is just taking the easiest way out, so Baha'is can say they "believe" in the gospels. Apparently, it's working. Baha'is really seem to think they believe in Jesus and the NT. Again, in Acts 1 it says that he showed himself alive with many proofs. How can you allegorize your way out of that? Just say, "no" that the writer is wrong. Just like the writer that said that thing about Isaac. Just say "no" that the NT and the Bible are works of fiction. But no, Baha'is need them to be true... and false at the same time. And in your mind, how do you make sense of that and convince yourself that is true?

 

[CG Didymus]

Writers can make any story sound real, but that does not mean it really happened.

Exactly. Like the Book of Mormon. I've never heard a Baha'i say anything bad about Mormons, but I've never heard a Baha'i support the belief that the Book of Mormon is true.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is a Christian thing and a Jesus thing. I don't know if all the Manifestations had the power and authority to forgive sins, but God has that power. @Truthseeker9 would probably know, he knows a lot more than me. (Sorry Duane. )

Well, let's go with the assumption that the writers made that up, since it is one of the things that Christians use to make Jesus into God. Let's also assume God is real and the supreme judge. Only he would be able to forgive people for the bad and evil things they did. In other religions people had to pay the penalty for their own evil deeds.

 

[CG Didymus]

Have a worldwide community worshipping God, who uses to be divided across many Faiths, races nations and gender. That have embraced that message and changed their lives to embrace the Oneness of Humanity, the Oneness of God and the Oneness of all Messengers.

The same potential many saw eminate from within Baha'u'llah, the Glory of God.

Who else can achieve that?

Regards Tony

Sure, lots of people believe he is sent from God... Because he wrote fast and was a nice and generous guy? I think it is what he wrote that is what's important. Those people wouldn't know what to believe about God and know what God wanted them to do if Baha'u'llah hadn't told them. Things like the oneness of human kind and getting rid of all sorts of prejudices like the ones concerning gender, religious and racial. Great message. But... then there are a few inconsistencies in what he wrote. So could he really be from God? Would God really be that inconsistent himself to have sent other messengers with contradicting messages?

Well, no. But the Baha'i Faith explains why there are contradictions and inconsistencies. That's where the problems arise. The explanations are good enough for some people, but not for others. And every religion gives reasons why theirs is right, and those reasons always make sense to the believers... But not to others. So lots of good stuff in the Baha'i Faith, but lots of us need more proof on some of the problematic things said and taught by the Baha'i Faith. Oh, and there never seems to be adequate proof... just "well ah... He's a manifestation of God. He can't lie, so what he says must be true." And related to that, "Well, those other religions are so old. We can't really know what they taught. And since we are new, our information is more trustworthy."

And again, people ask, "Prove it." And Baha'is can't, and round and round we go. But the teachings aren't that bad, just so many laws and rules. Like really, what are Hair Bands going to do when Baha'is try and enforce their anti-long hair rule? And why would God want men to have short hair? Oh, and what kind of swim suits would be legal for Baha'is to wear?

 

[CG Didymus]

But as I recall the story, God never planned for that killing to be carried out.

Again, as if it really happened. A voice tells him to take his son up a mountain and stab him in the heart. But instead, he fits a goat up there and kills the poor goat. And God needed goat's blood to be appeased? Yeah, yeah, great moral to the story. God wanted to see if Abraham would obey him to the absolute extreme. But God, what a nice guy, saw that poor Abraham was gullible enough to actually do such a stupid thing and stopped him. Like what did God say? "Gee, Abe... I was only joking. You know... being allegorical. Why do you take me so literally? You kill this goat instead. Now I'm happy. Now I know if I tell you to kill a goat in my name, you will do it."

 

[CG Didymus]

You make it sound like a conspiracy, as if Baha'is need those religions to fit what we believe. We don't need that, we just explain what we believe they originally taught. What are we supposed to do, lie and say we agree they taught what others believe they taught?

What's so bad about just saying that people made up prophets and Gods and laws that they attributed to God just to get people to obey. But Baha'is don't take all religions and do that. I've asked about the Egyptian, the Chinese, the Aztec, the Greek religions. Some of those religions had dying and rising God/men. They had flood stories and fire be cast down from heaven stories. Why not take those religions and say that "originally" they all taught about the one true God, but people messed them up.

As we've learned all sorts of religious beliefs fall into what we call Hinduism. Only one form of Hinduism is ever talked about by Baha'is, The one with Krishna. But even that version of Hinduism had several other "incarnations" of Vishnu before Krishna. We know about them, because it is in their Scriptures. Why not make them "fit" into the Baha'i "progression" also? Because it is easier to ignore them. And that's probably a wise move. In one story it has the captain of the monkey army jump all the way to Sri Lanka.

Wonderful story. Great spiritual lessons. But, it's religious myth. Which maybe all Jesus' resurrection is. So why go to all the trouble of making it allegorical? Which to me is essentially the same as calling it myth. But I've never heard a Baha'i go that far. Why not? Allegorical or a made up fictional myth? What's the difference? Baha'is are very careful in what they say about the other major religions, because they do need them. They need them to be part of their progressive revelation thing. Other than that, it seems like Baha'is would rather have nothing to do with the other religions.

 

[CG Didymus]

If they have different meanings to different people, then I don't see how they could be describing the real world. The real world is not different to different people.

"Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced." Well, you're an Atheist... anything convincing from the Baha'is? Other than convincing you that they have no substantial answers or proofs to back up their claims and the things they say.

 

[CG Didymus]

Oh come on, there's no way that could be anything but completely legitimate.

Oh? Really? Okay then, if you're buying it, who am I to disagree. I guess it must be true.

 

[CG Didymus]

That Jewish prescription sounds right, without checking it rigorously right now. However, remember progressive revelation. Baha'u'llah, I know offered to forgive his half bother Mirza Yayha if he repented. So Baha'u'llah also had the power to forgive on behalf of God. God gives both Jesus and Baha'u'llah that power.

But, we, and that does include me, don't necessarily believe the full extent of what Jesus was doing by "forgiving" the person of their sins. We don't believe in original or an inherited sin or sin nature from Adam. We don't believe that if a person dies without accepting Jesus they will be sent to hell to pay for their sins. Forgiveness from Jesus allowed a person, even though they had and will continue to sin against God, to be accepted into heaven... as if they had never sinned. Jesus paid the penalty for them.

Between Christians, Jesus told them to forgive one another, but that's different. So with Baha'u'llah does his forgiveness allow his half brother to get to some place close to God instead of some place filled with fire and brimstone and is filled with pain and agony? But even in Christianity, repentance is an important thing. But I don't believe very many, or any, people can ever totally repent of everything that is considered a sin against God's laws and commandments.

 

[CG Didymus]

Why is it indistinguishable from no God if God does not force people to believe?

Well, not like we believe the stories, but in the Bible God sends prophets to warn people of his soon to come judgement against them. In one city the people repented and God spared them. So there was always a "listen to me or else" part of the story in the Bible. And, since God did follow through and destroyed people, it would give people a big incentive to believe and follow this all powerful, wrathful God. So that's kind of forcing people to obey. But then again, we don't take those stories as being literally true.

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't care. I am indifferent to what you think.

I know it gets to be annoying and bothersome. And some of us deserve to be told off, but... Baha'is are supposed to be the peace makers, the ones that love and respect all people no matter what they believe. So, in theory, should Baha'is care about all people, even those that are being a pain?

Is it unreasonable to expect that there should be something that proves that Baha'u'llah is sent from God? Is it unreasonable that there is some proof that there even is a God? Religions have told us so many lies. And even Baha'is believe that many of the things that other religions teach are not true. A big one is that Jesus is God. So now we have another religions saying things, and it does seem like Baha'is are making claims, but when asked for proof... It is how fast Baha'u'llah wrote or how nice a person he was?

I personally like discussing prophecies and some of the teachings of the Baha'i Faith, but there's no substantial answers from Baha'i with them either. Like how do three woes become three manifestations. How 666 becomes the year the Umayyads took power. How everything that can be made into 1260 lunar years, no matter when it started or when it ended, is made to start in 621AD with the Hegira and end in 1844 with the declaration of the Bab? How trials and tribulations will get worse and worse, and just before all people are destroyed, Jesus, or "Christ", comes back. When was the daily sacrifice stopped and the abomination put in place? But Baha'is are tired of me asking.

 

[CG Didymus]

So, a 'heavenly maiden' appeared before Bahaollah and informed him about his mission from Allah?

So there's "girl" spirits? Much better than having some guy archangel come talk to me. I wonder how cute she was? Heck, I'd listen to her.

But really, where did she come from? Is she from some Islamic tradition?

 

[CG Didymus]

It is not an coincidence that Science has progressed rapidly in the last 200 of years.

And was humanity ready? I asked before... what about all the environmental problems we are having because we invented so much stuff that is polluting the world? Gee, thanks God... especially for nuclear bombs and missile technology.

 

[CG Didymus]

Known how? You have a very bad habit of making claims and not supporting them.

In any case, your argument here boils down to, "Well, you can't prove it's NOT true!"

Baha'is are faced with disproving other religion's concept of God. Krishna can't be an incarnation of one of the many Hindu Gods, because there is only one God and he doesn't not incarnate himself into human form. Jesus is part of a Trinity? Baha'is say no to this too and use NT quotes of Jesus saying things that makes God separate and distinct from him. And explain away any verse that makes it sound like Jesus is God. But, when it comes to their own concept of God, that one is real and true? God is one and created several special beings called manifestations. They can go from being in a spirit form and get born into a human body. There's something they call the "concourse on high" whatever that is. Then it was just mentioned that the person that would assume the title of "Baha'u'llah" was visited by a "Heavenly Maiden"? So all this is true? Oh, and Baha'is don't believe in a evil spirit being called Satan. That's make believe.

 

[CG Didymus]

Writing things quickly still doesn't prove that Mr B was sent by God.

In any case, your claim is incorrect. Mr B wrote about 20,000 works, with a total word count of about 7 million words, according to THIS site. However, according to THIS list of Stephen King's works and their word counts, he has written over 11 million words.

Also, the site I linked to regarding the works by Mr B show that he did not actually WRITE them all himself. He dictated many of them and they were recorded by an assistant in shorthand. Given that this shorthand could then be written out fully, perhaps with several people working at once on different sections, then that could inflate the word count unfairly.

I've been writing posts as fast as I can. Am I getting closer to being a prophet or something?