Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[WonderingWorrier]

Totally irrelevant. You are concluding there is a connection because they have the same word? That's like concluding that Star Trek is a sequel to Star Wars because they both have the word Star in the title.

Its a bit more than that.
Its not quite like concluding star trek is a sequel to star wars because they both have star in the title. And its not quite like your other comparison of connecting Winnie the Pooh to Attila the Hun because they both share the word The.

Its like there is a connection between Winnie the Pooh and Jack the Ripper, because they both share the word The.
But even though Attila the Hun shows us he also has "The" he is not part of the group.


Its also like if Jack the Ripper was able to transform into Winnie the Pooh.
Because Winnie the Pooh is Jack the Ripper.
That would not be magic. That would be understanding who Jack the Ripper is.


Yes. I am concluding there is a connection between words.



I have just showed you some more connections to "mighty".

Did you not see and understand the horses and chariots around the mountain?

Did you not see and understand how the wolf and the lamb are together?

Did you not see and understand the words around mighty go into the gate on the East?




I am showing you the place of the mighty wind.

Ephraim feedeth on wind, and followeth after the east wind: he daily increaseth lies and desolation; and they do make a covenant with the Assyrians, and oil is carried into Egypt. Hosea 12:1


It is relevant.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What are we missing by not being Baha'is? I knew Baha'is. I heard and saw how their Local Spiritual Assembly worked. I saw how there were some very strict and conservative and very administrative types of Baha'is that were more likely to get elected onto the Assembly. The liberal, very easy going Baha'is tended to be more active in doing the teaching of the Faith. I saw how the more successful and well attended Fireside meetings were run by more charismatic people. I saw how too many Baha'is got left out, were alienated, and eventually became inactive. I was with my Baha'i friends were they went on mass teaching trips. They went door to door inviting people to a meeting to learn about the Baha'i Faith. When the people asked, "What is the Baha'i Faith?" That opened the door to "teach" them. 'Cause to proselytize would be wrong.

There were some excellent meetings, though. The best one was San Francisco Peace Conference. I lived in Southern California then. Now that I'm in Northern California, I've never heard of any big meeting or conference. What are Baha'is doing? Their Peace Statement went out more than 30 years ago. What happened?

The best lesson I have learnt in regards to these question CG is in this quote from Abdu'lbaha . Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 91-93 here is an extract and which eye it is we should look with.

".. Be in perfect unity. Never become angry with one another. Let your eyes be directed toward the kingdom of truth and not toward the world of creation. Love the creatures for the sake of God and not for themselves. You will never become angry or impatient if you love them for the sake of God. Humanity is not perfect. There are imperfections in every human being, and you will always become unhappy if you look toward the people themselves. But if you look toward God, you will love them and be kind to them, for the world of God is the world of perfection and complete mercy. Therefore, do not look at the shortcomings of anybody; see with the sight of forgiveness. The imperfect eye beholds imperfections. The eye that covers faults looks toward the Creator of souls. He created them, trains and provides for them, endows them with capacity and life, sight and hearing; therefore, they are the signs of His grandeur. You must love and be kind to everybody, care for the poor, protect the weak, heal the sick, teach and educate the ignorant.... "

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Baha'i has about 8 million followers. That's a TINY fraction of the world population. I'd hardly call it major. By that definition, the Church of Scientology is a more major religion.

And is it growing? Fifty years ago Baha'is were saying that soon there will be "entry by troops". What happened? Some people have checked out their estimates of how many members they have and have found that the Baha'i Faith has greatly exaggerated how many people they have. I was told that whole villages had become Baha'i. Are they still Baha'i? Were they ever Baha'i? If they are, do they apply the Baha'i laws and principles to run their village? If so, is it working?

 

[CG Didymus]

I see God's plan is not so simplistic CG.

God knows our beginning and our end in the journey that has been given to discover the power of the Spirit within.

As such in this evolution as the human species, before each crisis we bring upon ourselves, God puts a Messenger amongst us to remind us that we are more than human. When we reject that Message, we are warned that the consequences of turning away from our spiritual journey, back to the world of nature, will reek upon us the destruction of animal instincts, the survival of the fittest.

There are powers way beyond atomic energy, be thankful they can not be discovered before we are united, as they would destroy this planet, Atomic energy is a lesson of the wrong way to use what is available to us. The world is teaching us what happens when we turn toward our own self and forget God.

Regards Tony

So what do you think? When we all come to realize God's truth, will we get rid of all the things that are destroying the planet?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And is it growing? Fifty years ago Baha'is were saying that soon there will be "entry by troops". What happened? Some people have checked out their estimates of how many members they have and have found that the Baha'i Faith has greatly exaggerated how many people they have. I was told that whole villages had become Baha'i. Are they still Baha'i? Were they ever Baha'i? If they are, do they apply the Baha'i laws and principles to run their village? If so, is it working?

It's working for those that embrace it CG, as to what will now happen? Well from what I have read to date, there have been non stop warnings of the consequences we face, to now know that change will only be accepted after great catastrophic events.

All the best CG, the best thing we can do is be a Loving active Member of our community and be there, if we survive, to help pick up the pieces and offer the foundation of a strong new world order for the remnants of humanity to consider.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

No, we are not responsible for that. Our only duty is to *deliver* the message of Baha'u'llah.

“Gird up the loins of thine endeavor, that haply thou mayest guide thy neighbor to the law of God, the Most Merciful. Such an act, verily, excelleth all other acts in the sight of God, the All-Possessing, the Most High. Such must be thy steadfastness in the Cause of God, that no earthly thing whatsoever will have the power to deter thee from thy duty. Though the powers of earth be leagued against thee, though all men dispute with thee, thou must remain unshaken.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

Which involves saying that reincarnation is not true. And that Jesus did not rise from the dead and is not coming back. And that's great. Lots of people would be glad to hear that.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So what do you think? When we all come to realize God's truth, will we get rid of all the things that are destroying the planet?

Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It's working for those that embrace it CG, as to what will now happen? Well from what I have read to date, there have been non stop warnings of the consequences we face, to now know that change will only be accepted after great catastrophic events.

All the best CG, the best thing we can do is be a Loving active Member of our community and be there, if we survive, to help pick up the pieces and offer the foundation of a strong new world order for the remnants of humanity to consider.

Regards Tony

Well, I'm sure some of your Christian friends tell how they believe that we are in the end times now... not back in the 1800's. How bad was it then anyway? I'm sure they had their problems... But worse than what were are facing now? And, as near as I can tell, Jesus comes back and the bad stuff, the judgements from God, stops.

 

[CG Didymus]

The best lesson I have learnt in regards to these question CG is in this quote from Abdu'lbaha . Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promulgation of Universal Peace, Pages 91-93 here is an extract and which eye it is we should look with.

".. Be in perfect unity. Never become angry with one another. Let your eyes be directed toward the kingdom of truth and not toward the world of creation. Love the creatures for the sake of God and not for themselves. You will never become angry or impatient if you love them for the sake of God. Humanity is not perfect. There are imperfections in every human being, and you will always become unhappy if you look toward the people themselves. But if you look toward God, you will love them and be kind to them, for the world of God is the world of perfection and complete mercy. Therefore, do not look at the shortcomings of anybody; see with the sight of forgiveness. The imperfect eye beholds imperfections. The eye that covers faults looks toward the Creator of souls. He created them, trains and provides for them, endows them with capacity and life, sight and hearing; therefore, they are the signs of His grandeur. You must love and be kind to everybody, care for the poor, protect the weak, heal the sick, teach and educate the ignorant.... "

Regards Tony

Sounds good. But, like with Christians who were told to love their neighbors as themselves, it's hard to apply even for believers. But when believers don't follow those kinds of teachings, then not so spiritual unbelievers can point to them and say, "You hypocrites. You guys don't even follow your own teachings." But, those were great words anyway. And wasn't there one about let deeds, not words, be you adorning" So that's the thing, getting people to actually live by those words.

 

[Trailblazer]

And for those that study a different religion come to believe in a different spiritual reality. So is it reality?

Since the spiritual teachings of all religions are essentially the same, all believers of the revealed religions believe in spiritual reality. We just view it a little differently but that is no reason to be divided.

Which should be easy to prove. Let's compare the original message to the later corrupted one. What's that? There is no original message? Hmmm? So the only way we know what the original message was is by going by what Baha'u'llah said that original message was.

No, the original message is in the scriptures of those religions, as close as we can come to knowing what the Messengers of those religions said or taught.

 

[Trailblazer]

What are we missing by not being Baha'is?

A more important question to ask yourself is what you are missing by not recognizing Baha'u'llah as a Messenger of God.
"Being Bahais" and participating as part of the group is secondary to recognizing Baha'u'llah.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331

 

[Trailblazer]

And is it growing? Fifty years ago Baha'is were saying that soon there will be "entry by troops". What happened? Some people have checked out their estimates of how many members they have and have found that the Baha'i Faith has greatly exaggerated how many people they have. I was told that whole villages had become Baha'i. Are they still Baha'i? Were they ever Baha'i? If they are, do they apply the Baha'i laws and principles to run their village? If so, is it working?

Whether the Baha'i Faith is growing or not is totally unrelated to whether it is the truth from God or not.

How many people believe something has nothing to do with whether it is true or false. That is the fallacy of argumentum ad populum

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Many or most people do not believe in the Baha’i Faith because it is the new religion at the narrow gate. Below are the primary reasons why most people do not believe in a new religion.

The religion at the narrow gate is the religion God wants us to find and follow, and it is the gate that leads to eternal life. But it is not that easy for most people to find this gate because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new Messenger. If they are atheists they do not like the idea of Messengers of God or they think they are all phonies. If they are irreligious they have become fatigued by the already established religions and thus just find it more annoying that a new one has popped up.

It is difficult to get through the narrow gate because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow the broad road that is easiest for them to travel.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's working for those that embrace it CG, as to what will now happen?

If we are Baha'is we know what will happen eventually.

“The day is approaching when the intervening clouds will have been completely dissipated, when the light of the words, “All honor belongeth unto God and unto them that love Him,” will have appeared, as manifest as the sun, above the horizon of the Will of the Almighty…….” Gleanings, p. 306

Well from what I have read to date, there have been non stop warnings of the consequences we face, to now know that change will only be accepted after great catastrophic events.

My husband reminded me of the passage below as he was watching all the catastrophic events unfolding on TV.
I believe that the limbs of mankind are already starting to quake. What more will it take? Only God knows.

“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119

 

[Trailblazer]

Which involves saying that reincarnation is not true. And that Jesus did not rise from the dead and is not coming back. And that's great. Lots of people would be glad to hear that.

It only involves saying that if people ask us what we believe about those things.
Otherwise it is not our duty to say anything.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nothing is impossible with God.

That cuts both ways.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hmmm.. interesting. What makes you think CG Didymus is 'on the fence'?

Because he has told me that numerous times. How else could I know?

 

[Trailblazer]

So as I see we are now facing the consequences of another rejected Messenger, the better question CG is to ask why people have not embraced such a logical message of our Oneness as humanity and that we actually only do have One God.

So in January of 1913, when he met with the renowned British actress and playwright Gabrielle Enthoven and several others at her home, Abdu’l-Baha asked her: “What is your great interest in life?” and she said “The Drama.”

Abdu’l-Baha replied “I will give you a play. It shall be called “The Drama of the Kingdom.” He then dictated this entire script, speaking without notes and only pausing for simultaneous translation. Initially written down by Mary Blomfield Hall and included in Volume 6 of “The Baha’i World”, Abdu’l-Baha’s play begins by describing the world and its people when the Herald of the Kingdom appears and blows his trumpet.

https://bahaiteachings.org/abdul-bahas-play-drama-of-the-kingdom

This play demonstrates what would happen if Christ returned, how various people would react.

Below are seven reasons why more people have not recognized Baha’u’llah, yet.

1. Many people have never heard of the Baha’i Faith, so they do not know there is something to look for. It is the responsibility of the Baha’is to get the message out, so if that is not happening, the Baha’is are to blame. However, there are so few Baha’is and they are busy building the New World Order, and there is only so much time, so they can only do so much.

2. But even after people know about the Baha’i Faith, most people are not even willing to look the evidence in order to determine if it is true or not.

3. Even if they are willing to look at the evidence, there is a lot of prejudice before even getting out the door to look at the evidence.

4. 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion so they have no interest in a “new religion.”

5. The rest of the world’s population is agnostics or atheists or believers who are prejudiced against all religion.

6. Agnostics or atheists and atheists and believers who have no religion either do not believe that God communicates via Messengers or they find fault with the Messenger, Baha’u’llah.

7. Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and laws that are very different from the older religions so many people are suspicious of those teachings and/or don’t like the laws because some laws require them to give things up that they like doing.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, I'm sure some of your Christian friends tell how they believe that we are in the end times now... not back in the 1800's. How bad was it then anyway? I'm sure they had their problems... But worse than what were are facing now? And, as near as I can tell, Jesus comes back and the bad stuff, the judgements from God, stops.

As I have offered before CG, I see the Bible Prophecy is not in Chronological order, this stands to reason, as it is a collection of stories. As mentioned to you before, God has always sent the Messengers, before the calamities and warned the people, can you see that is the Case? If so, is it logical that God has warned us in the mid 1800's of what we now face because of what our hands and minds have produced?

Have you looked at how Persia was in that time, if you do, your question will be answered.

Interestingly God sends the Messenger in the place that it is most needed, not because they are the most deserving. Also God knows this, so that is why it is veiled in Prophecy.

That is also why America was chosen to be given priority of Faith in the West, America was founded on the greatest intentions, but at the same time it was in the greatest danger of disunity built in a rise of Materialism and gender and race inequality.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I am being influenced by you, Tb. Only you.

What does that mean? Why not just come out and say what you mean?
How and why are you influenced by me?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sounds good. But, like with Christians who were told to love their neighbors as themselves, it's hard to apply even for believers. But when believers don't follow those kinds of teachings, then not so spiritual unbelievers can point to them and say, "You hypocrites. You guys don't even follow your own teachings." But, those were great words anyway. And wasn't there one about let deeds, not words, be you adorning" So that's the thing, getting people to actually live by those words.

That is the key, we must look at ourselves for the change. That is also the greatest proof of the Messenger, they are the first to offer the word in their lives. As Jesus said if you want to enter the Kingdom, pick up the cross and follow me. The first step, is actually taking the first step toward that required change.

Regards Tony