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Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Both the Qur'an and the Baha'i Writings say it was Ishmael, and not Isaac as stated in the Old Testament, whom Abraham was to sacrifice. So why should we believe that an ancient text like the Old Testament is more accurate?

"The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet. A striking example is given in the account of the sacrifice which Abraham was called upon to make. The Guardian of the Faith confirms that the record in the Qur'an and the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, namely that it was Ishmael, and not Isaac as stated in the Old Testament, whom Abraham was to sacrifice, is to be upheld. In one of His Tablets 'Abdu'l-Bahá refers to this discrepancy, and explains that, from a spiritual point of view, it is irrelevant which son was involved. The essential part of the story is that Abraham was willing to obey God's command to sacrifice His son. Thus, although the account in the Torah is inaccurate in detail, it is true in substance."

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments
For one thing... As if the story really happened. Why would God ask anyone to kill his son? Better find a nicer God to believe in. Next, who and when did the Bible story get changed? Suddenly, all the Scribes started writing the wrong story? And no one noticed? Even if it was an oral tradition. All the people started telling the wrong story and had Isaac being the one? Then who is more important to the Jews? Ishmael or Isaac? The main part of the Jewish story continues through Isaac. And the NT supports it being Isaac...
Hebrews 11:17
By faith, Abraham, being tested, offered up Isaac. Yes, he who had gladly received the promises was offering up his one and only son;
James 2:21
Wasn't Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?​
So a contradiction or both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament are wrong?
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
How do you know?
Is that all you want to pick on?:p

The Qur’án consists of over six thousand verses and was revealed by Muḥammad in 23 years. The speed of the revelation of the words of Bahá’u’lláh was about one thousand verses in an hour! For example, the Kitáb-i-Íqán (Book of Certitude), one of the most important of Bahá’u’lláh's works, was revealed in the course of two days and two nights.
Adib Taherzadeh, "The Child of the Covenant"

Of course just Adib Taherzadeh saying this doesn't make it verifiable. I'm not saying that. But investigate further various accounts from followers of Baha'u'llah how rapidly Baha'u'llah revealed His verses. You can find them in The Revelation of Baha'u'llah by Adib Taherzadeh volumes 1, 2 3, and 4. Adib Taherzadeh's father knew Baha'u'llah himself, and He got some of his information from his father. There are also written sources he drew from.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
We do not try to reconcile them.
to settle or resolve (differences) 2 : to make consistent
I think these fit perfect. But besides, reconcile was your word. I would have used something like... Baha'i take contradictions in the other religions and change them up to get them to better fit with what Baha'is believe.

As I said in my post to @samtonga43 that Bahai Faith is not trying to make the older religions FIT with the Baha'i Faith. They will never FIT and we are nit trying to make them FIT. There no reason that they should FIT because they were revealed thousands of years ago.
Then why do Baha'is tell Hindus that Krishna is not an incarnation but a manifestation and that reincarnation, as they define it is not true? Why say that Buddha "originally" taught about God? Why tell Jews about Ishmael instead of Isaac was taken to be sacrificed? Why tell Christians that Jesus did not rise from the dead and is not coming back? By doing all that, those religions end up fitting much better into the Baha'i scheme of things.

And, although I like the idea of reincarnation, it doesn't mean I believe it. I'm perfectly fine if it all ends up that they were all wrong. But I'm not going around saying how they changed things, made up things, misinterpreted thing or whatever, to get them to fit my beliefs. Baha'is do. And again, I don't believe the Baha'i Faith is correct in what they are saying, but maybe they are.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Is that all you want to pick on?:p

The Qur’án consists of over six thousand verses and was revealed by Muḥammad in 23 years. The speed of the revelation of the words of Bahá’u’lláh was about one thousand verses in an hour! For example, the Kitáb-i-Íqán (Book of Certitude), one of the most important of Bahá’u’lláh's works, was revealed in the course of two days and two nights.
Adib Taherzadeh, "The Child of the Covenant"

Of course just Adib Taherzadeh saying this doesn't make it verifiable. I'm not saying that. But investigate further various accounts from followers of Baha'u'llah how rapidly Baha'u'llah revealed His verses. You can find them in The Revelation of Baha'u'llah by Adib Taherzadeh volumes 1, 2 3, and 4. Adib Taherzadeh's father knew Baha'u'llah himself, and He got some of his information from his father. There are also written sources he drew from.

You know that its not good enough. Adibs father supposedly knowing Bahaullah is all hearsay. And anyway none of that can verify anything.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Is that all you want to pick on?:p

The Qur’án consists of over six thousand verses and was revealed by Muḥammad in 23 years. The speed of the revelation of the words of Bahá’u’lláh was about one thousand verses in an hour! For example, the Kitáb-i-Íqán (Book of Certitude), one of the most important of Bahá’u’lláh's works, was revealed in the course of two days and two nights.
Adib Taherzadeh, "The Child of the Covenant"

Of course just Adib Taherzadeh saying this doesn't make it verifiable. I'm not saying that. But investigate further various accounts from followers of Baha'u'llah how rapidly Baha'u'llah revealed His verses. You can find them in The Revelation of Baha'u'llah by Adib Taherzadeh volumes 1, 2 3, and 4. Adib Taherzadeh's father knew Baha'u'llah himself, and He got some of his information from his father. There are also written sources he drew from.
It's strange that for this there is evidence? But I guess the way it is being presented, it is evidence that Baha'u'llah is a manifestation? Still, Joseph Smith and his special spectacles and the golden plates? Made up total fiction or the God's honest truth? If fiction, then some great religious movements are based on things that aren't true. Yet, LDS has lots of members and a lot of them are very nice people. So by their fruits shall you know that their religion is true? Or by what they believe? Even if it sounds pretty fishy?
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
It's My Birthday!
Bahaollah was confined to barracks (that is different from being in jail) in Acre in 1868 and till 1871 was not permitted to leave.[/QUOTE}
It was a prison in Akka. Of course, believe what you want, no one is stopping you. Even Wikipedia can have it's bias. It tries to be neutral. Being neutral can itself a bias sometimes.

There is no mention of any head-cleric going down on his knees to request Bahaollah to go away. Can you think of any sane reason why a Muslim head-cleric (perhaps a Sunni as they predominate in that region) will go down on his knees before a Murtad (renegade) who commited riddah (apostasy)? That is not done and it is prohibited in Islam.
That is not exactly a detailed account of what happened in that article. This cleric loved Baha'u'llah because of Baha'u'llah's character, and I would say that according to 'Abdu'l-Baha's account he believed in Baha'u'llah's station. He was Muslim in name only. There was no apostasy either. Baha'u'llah believed in Muhammad very much. You don't know Baha'u'llah at all. In another part of this thread I quoted 'Abdu'l-Baha's account, which this is based on. Perhaps you didn't see that. I trust Abdu'l-Baha's word. He has shown from all accounts that he can be trusted in his word, in my opinion.

Also reading the article myself, you selectively chose whatever suited you, and interpolated comments of your own sometimes. You are a despicable human being, distorting the Baha'i Faith purposely, in my opinion. I am indifferent about all that, I feel no sorrow for you or angry. That is the honest truth.

At times I have been angry, but don't feel that way now. It is what it is.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But in Judaism, some believe that Moses did write. And that even God wrote the 10 commandments. So is that allegorical or just made up stuff?
Scholars are in agreement that Moses did not write anything that is in the OT. Most Jews do not believe Moses wrote the Torah or that God wrote the 10 commandments.

Nobody will ever know what happened 3500 years ago, but why does it matter?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Baha'is don't believe it and don't want it. The easiest solution is to have Jesus dead and gone and not coming back. So, although the writers make it sound like Jesus came back to life, Baha'is make that part of the story symbolic.
Writers can make any story sound real, but that does not mean it really happened.

Baha'is do not MAKE it that way, just because Abdu'l-Baha wrote about one possible meaning of the resurrection.
It does not matter if it is symbolic or not, it only matters if it literally happened or not. If you do not believe Jesus rose from the dead why does it matter so much to you what Abdu'l-Baha said?

Jesus is dead and gone and not coming back, that is clear from the verses where Jesus says He is not coming back and that His work is finished here.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And what part of this could only have happened if he was a messenger sent by God?

Have a worldwide community worshipping God, who uses to be divided across many Faiths, races nations and gender. That have embraced that message and changed their lives to embrace the Oneness of Humanity, the Oneness of God and the Oneness of all Messengers.

The same potential many saw eminate from within Baha'u'llah, the Glory of God.

Who else can achieve that?

Regards Tony
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So all manifestations had the power and authority to forgive sins? This thing about sins and needing forgiveness is mostly a Christian thing.
It is a Christian thing and a Jesus thing. I don't know if all the Manifestations had the power and authority to forgive sins, but God has that power. @Truthseeker9 would probably know, he knows a lot more than me. (Sorry Duane. ;))
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Have a worldwide community worshipping God, who uses to be divided aceoss many Faiths, races nations and gender. That have embraced that message and changed their lives to embrace the Oneness of Humanity, the Oneness of God and the Oneness of all Messengers.

The same potential many saw eminate from within Baha'u'llah, the Glory of God.

Who else can achieve that?

Regards Tony
Shoot, now why didn't I think of that? ;) Thanks for showing up. :)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I think these fit perfect. But besides, reconcile was your word. I would have used something like... Baha'i take contradictions in the other religions and change them up to get them to better fit with what Baha'is believe.
You make it sound like a conspiracy, as if Baha'is need those religions to fit what we believe. We don't need that, we just explain what we believe they originally taught. What are we supposed to do, lie and say we agree they taught what others believe they taught?
 
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Tiberius

Well-Known Member
No, there is nobody who ever wrote as much as rapidly as Baha'u'llah. You can believe whatever you want to about that and you will.

Writing things quickly still doesn't prove that Mr B was sent by God.

In any case, your claim is incorrect. Mr B wrote about 20,000 works, with a total word count of about 7 million words, according to THIS site. However, according to THIS list of Stephen King's works and their word counts, he has written over 11 million words.

Also, the site I linked to regarding the works by Mr B show that he did not actually WRITE them all himself. He dictated many of them and they were recorded by an assistant in shorthand. Given that this shorthand could then be written out fully, perhaps with several people working at once on different sections, then that could inflate the word count unfairly.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
@Truthseeker9 can explain what he means but he cannot explain what the stories mean to you.
That is why he said "I won't be a baby sitter for you and explain what they mean myself."

If they have different meanings to different people, then I don't see how they could be describing the real world. The real world is not different to different people.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Yes. They all have a particular word in them.

Mighty also has the word Horse (and chariot):



Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord God. Ezekiel 39:20

Then were the horsehoofs broken by the means of the pransings, the pransings of their mighty ones. Judges 5:22


The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that dwell therein. Jeremiah 8:16



And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth. Zechariah 9:10


The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in the day of battle. Psalm 78:9


And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. Revelation 6:2





He hath caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins. Lamentations 3:13





Whose arrows are sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses' hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind: Isaiah 5:28

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 2 Kings 2:11

And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. 2 Kings 6:17


Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. Joel 2:5

Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow. Isaiah 41:2



Mighty also has the word Benjamin:


Now there was a man of Benjamin, whose name was Kish, the son of Abiel, the son of Zeror, the son of Bechorath, the son of Aphiah, a Benjamite, a mighty man of power. 1 Samuel 9:1

And the sons of Ulam were mighty men of valour, archers, and had many sons, and sons' sons, an hundred and fifty. All these are of the sons of Benjamin. 1 Chronicles 8:40

And Asa had an army of men that bare targets and spears, out of Judah three hundred thousand; and out of Benjamin, that bare shields and drew bows, two hundred and fourscore thousand: all these were mighty men of valour. 2 Chronicles 14:8




Ephraim the chariot, and Dan the horse are part of the same group.

Ephraim is part of Joseph.



Joseph is the sheep:

Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth. Psalm 80:1



Benjamin is the wolf:

Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil.





As you can see: The wolf (Benjamin) is with the lamb (Joseph):

And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan. Ezekiel 48:32


.The wolf, and the lamb, is with the horse.

.

Totally irrelevant. You are concluding there is a connection because they have the same word? That's like concluding that Star Trek is a sequel to Star Wars because they both have the word Star in the title.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
And I suppose you don't believe that Joseph Smith had special spectacles that allowed him to translate some Golden Plates that an angel had told him about? And I wouldn't blame you.

Oh come on, there's no way that could be anything but completely legitimate. ;)
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Why would God be fictional just because fictional stories were written about Him? If God exists, God is still one to fear. Even if the stories were literally true, who could ever prove it? I think they were written with the intention of being stories with lessons. Obey... get rewarded. Disobey and get yourself smote.

Why would Harry Potter be fictional just because fictional stories were written about him?

I've just shown that you can't disprove Harry Potter.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Have a worldwide community worshipping God, who uses to be divided across many Faiths, races nations and gender. That have embraced that message and changed their lives to embrace the Oneness of Humanity, the Oneness of God and the Oneness of all Messengers.

The same potential many saw eminate from within Baha'u'llah, the Glory of God.

Who else can achieve that?

Regards Tony

Lots of religions have done that.
 
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