Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[Truthseeker]

I've made it clear many times that I'll believe anything provided it has valid evidence. Since I've already stated that I'd accept it as testable evidence if it wasn't written by Mr B or based on his writing, your claim that I would just dismiss it is unreasonable and unfair.

See my later reply and see if it has any effect on you or not. Up to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've had some time to think about it now, and one fact that is interesting that even before Baha'u'llah heard of the Bab He was already rich and was giving away His money to the poor. Then He declared His allegiance the Bab immediately, knowing how the people in His country were, that He was putting His fortune and life in jeopardy.

He revealed the Book of Certitude in two days, and indeed in all His Writings He wrote them down rapidly, as if taking dictation from God, all from a person whose only education was learning Arabic and the Qur'an, horse riding, and the like. People marveled at the quality of these rapidly revealed Writings.

He was cast into prison in Akka, Israel, and in a couple of years the authorities in Akka allowed Him to leave the prison, though He was supposed to be in prison for life with no contact with anyone. After nine years the leading cleric in Akka got on his knees and for a long period begged Baha'u'llah to leave Akka. Baha'u'llah left Akka, with no one trying to stop Him, though the imprisonment decree was still in effect.

People who came into the presence of Baha'u'llah very often were overwhelmed and unable to speak, including people who when they met Him didn't believe in Him.

This okay @Trailblazer?

That's great. I recall some of that but I did not even know some of it. You are so proficient in Baha'i history so maybe you can post some more. @Tiberius and others on this thread are asking us for evidence of Baha'u'llah so you can post whatever you want to.

I have one question. Why did that cleric in Akka beg Baha'u'llah to leave the prison?

Isn't there another story about how the His jailers were so taken with Him that they gave Him special privileges?

 

[firedragon]

His body was crucified, but not His spirit according to our understanding. Isn't that a possible interpretation? Especially when it is added immediately after that Jesus was taken up to God. You're free to disagree.

See, this is one of the reasons I dont wish to discuss this topic in an irrelevant thread. I think. Nevertheless, the Quran doesn't say any of that. It simply says he was not crucified. Plain and simple. Everything else is an extra account, or irrelevant to this single point.

You can of course disagree with the Quran. Thats anyones prerogative. But then you cannot deem it Gods word.

 

[samtonga43]

As a Christian, how do you handle it when people disagree with Christianity? I know that the Christians that try and "witness" to others are doing it out of what they believe is love. They are trying to get the person "saved". But then people come back at you with questions that challenge the validity of the Bible and other things. That's what TB faces. She puts it out there that Baha'u'llah is from God, and everybody, Atheists, Christians, Jews, everybody hits her with reasons why she is wrong. But, you're in the same position. You believe in your religion. You want to share God's love and truth with others, and most people don't want to hear it. What do you do? Especially here on a forum where the conversation can go on for several weeks and months. And, many answers and questions do seem to just go around in circles and go nowhere.

I was an atheist (explicit rather than implicit) for many years, so I do understand the atheistic viewpoint. I was with Nietzsche:
“I have not come to know atheism as a result of logical reasoning and still less as an event in my life: in me it is a matter of instinct”.

So, when people ‘disagree with Christianity’, as you put it, I understand why they disagree. I know the arguments against Christianity -- against theism in general -- very well. I shouted them from the rooftops (not literally!)

I was always interested in the reasons why so many highly intelligent people, believed The Fairytale. Why were they so blind to common sense and logic? Why did they refuse to recognize reality?

I took a course in Philosophy of Religion at university; I met some fascinating people, read some very interesting books and enjoyed many lively discussions.

During the next few years I became aware that my atheism was not as explicit as it had been, and I moved away from my strong atheism to… well, all I can call it is ‘something else’. A gradual process from unbelief to belief followed.

You say that I want to share God's love and truth with others, and in one sense this is true, but I am not a fundamentalist or a Biblical literalist. I can usually sense when I should speak and when I should not.
If I sense that people do not want to hear about what I believe and why, I see no point whatsoever in telling them.

There are Christians who believe that every word of the Bible is divinely inspired and therefore true. I am not one of them. I favour exegesis over eisegesis, and place a great deal of emphasis on the importance of context; cherry-picking is cheating.

 

[CG Didymus]

My assessment for what it is worth is that you want someone to confirm for you that the devil and the resurrection and the return of Jesus are all false, but you already know what Baha'is believe about that. Why not just accept it and stop wondering? You don't have to accept that the Baha'i Faith is true, bit at least it is a step in the right direction, out of fantasy-land!

I question and doubt the devil and resurrection, but if it's true... it's true. I think there is a good chance that there are malevolent spiritual beings, but I'd rather not have it be true. And the resurrection? No, I think too many things in the gospels make it sound like it happened and that they believed it happened.

No, the only things in the Bible that Abdu'l-Baha says are allegorical are the resurrection and Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden. The rest of the Bible is up for grabs and can be interpreted however Baha'is want.

And what do Baha'is do with them... all of them? Tower of Babel, the flood. Sodom and Gomorrah, the walls of Jericho tumbling down, Jonah and the big fish, a donkey talking, a walking cane turning into a snake, Elijah calling down fire from heaven, the parting of the seas, Daniel being thrown into a lion den and not being harmed, Sampson gaining his strength from his long hair, the Nephilim, Daniel's friends being thrown into a fiery furnace and not being burned and so on.

Then we go to the gospels... Why believe in a literal virgin birth? But do you believe angels appeared to the shepherds, the Magi followed a star until it hovered over where the baby Jesus was, God speaking audibly, not just to Jesus, from heaven, Jesus turning water into wine, healing the blind, the lame, the lepers and raised two people from the dead, the feeding of the 5000, the people coming out of their graves in Jerusalem when Jesus was crucified, the casting out of demons, Jesus tempted by Satan and on and on.

Lots of stuff there to take literal or say it is allegorical. That's why I think if people, Baha'is, are going to go down that road, might as well say it is all myth and legend. And I wouldn't be surprised if some Baha'is, maybe they won't say it out loud, but that they do believe it is all just myth... And just take a few "spiritual" truths from it that they can quote once in a while... like I don't know how many times I've heard Baha'is say, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come , he will guide you into all truth..."

What I don't like is the Baha'is that tell me how much they "love" and "revere" the Bible and they do same with the Scriptures of the other religions too. Anyway, I'm going to read on and see what else has been said.

 

[CG Didymus]

I've had some time to think about it now, and one fact that is interesting that even before Baha'u'llah heard of the Bab He was already rich and was giving away His money to the poor. Then He declared His allegiance the Bab immediately, knowing how the people in His country were, that He was putting His fortune and life in jeopardy.

He revealed the Book of Certitude in two days, and indeed in all His Writings He wrote them down rapidly, as if taking dictation from God, all from a person whose only education was learning Arabic and the Qur'an, horse riding, and the like. People marveled at the quality of these rapidly revealed Writings.

He was cast into prison in Akka, Israel, and in a couple of years the authorities in Akka allowed Him to leave the prison, though He was supposed to be in prison for life with no contact with anyone. After nine years the leading cleric in Akka got on his knees and for a long period begged Baha'u'llah to leave Akka. Baha'u'llah left Akka, with no one trying to stop Him, though the imprisonment decree was still in effect.

People who came into the presence of Baha'u'llah very often were overwhelmed and unable to speak, including people who when they met Him didn't believe in Him.

This okay @Trailblazer?

Well this ties in with my last post to TB. Are the gospels "The inerrant Truth and the infallible Word of God"? Or just a bunch of embellished, fictional stories? The people are amazed at the things Jesus said too. But did he really say them? Then the story goes into how he heals people and casts out demons and raises the dead. So the problem is that things that people call "Scriptures" are unbelievable. Yet, they are expected to be believed and that leaves people struggling with how much of it to believe.

Baha'u'llah and his writings have inherited that skepticism that some people have when talking to "true believers". Baha'is, actually, don't help it when they say that things like the creation story and the resurrection of Jesus are not literally true. Along with saying there is no Satan and literal hell. So for 2000 years people have been told a big lie or at least a big exaggeration of something that might have been partially true.

Oh, and I totally believe in the "power" of believing the NT and the Bible as being literally true. They "know" God, they "feel" his presence, he answers their prayers and does, sometimes, heal them. Does God and Jesus do the same for "liberal" Christians? Do liberal Christians even expect him to? But, if the Baha'i Faith is true, then those literal believing born again Christians are believing allegorical things as being literally true. Which is kind of like believing something that is false as being true isn't it?

 

[Tiberius]

I've had some time to think about it now, and one fact that is interesting that even before Baha'u'llah heard of the Bab He was already rich and was giving away His money to the poor. Then He declared His allegiance the Bab immediately, knowing how the people in His country were, that He was putting His fortune and life in jeopardy.

He revealed the Book of Certitude in two days, and indeed in all His Writings He wrote them down rapidly, as if taking dictation from God, all from a person whose only education was learning Arabic and the Qur'an, horse riding, and the like. People marveled at the quality of these rapidly revealed Writings.

He was cast into prison in Akka, Israel, and in a couple of years the authorities in Akka allowed Him to leave the prison, though He was supposed to be in prison for life with no contact with anyone. After nine years the leading cleric in Akka got on his knees and for a long period begged Baha'u'llah to leave Akka. Baha'u'llah left Akka, with no one trying to stop Him, though the imprisonment decree was still in effect.

People who came into the presence of Baha'u'llah very often were overwhelmed and unable to speak, including people who when they met Him didn't believe in Him.

This okay @Trailblazer?

And what part of this could only have happened if he was a messenger sent by God?

 

[Trailblazer]

I question and doubt the devil and resurrection, but if it's true... it's true. I think there is a good chance that there are malevolent spiritual beings, but I'd rather not have it be true. And the resurrection? No, I think too many things in the gospels make it sound like it happened and that they believed it happened.

So are you willing to make a decision and just decide to believe that there is no devil and there was no resurrection?

And what do Baha'is do with them... all of them? Tower of Babel, the flood. Sodom and Gomorrah, the walls of Jericho tumbling down, Jonah and the big fish, a donkey talking, a walking cane turning into a snake, Elijah calling down fire from heaven, the parting of the seas, Daniel being thrown into a lion den and not being harmed, Sampson gaining his strength from his long hair, the Nephilim, Daniel's friends being thrown into a fiery furnace and not being burned and so on.

I don't know why it matters to you what Baha'is do with them, but Baha'is different things with them, depending upon the Baha'i.

Here are some Baha'i views of the Bible:

Introduction

Although Bahá'ís universally share a great respect for the Bible, and acknowledge its status as sacred literature, their individual views about its authoritative status range along the full spectrum of possibilities. At one end there are those who assume the uncritical evangelical or fundamentalist-Christian view that the Bible is wholly and indisputably the word of God. At the other end are Bahá'ís attracted to the liberal, scholarly conclusion that the Bible is no more than a product of complex historical and human forces. Between these extremes is the possibility that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts. I hope to show that a Bahá'í view must lie in this middle area, and can be defined to some degree.

Conclusion

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

A Baháí View of the Bible

Then we go to the gospels... Why believe in a literal virgin birth? But do you believe angels appeared to the shepherds, the Magi followed a star until it hovered over where the baby Jesus was, God speaking audibly, not just to Jesus, from heaven, Jesus turning water into wine, healing the blind, the lame, the lepers and raised two people from the dead, the feeding of the 5000, the people coming out of their graves in Jerusalem when Jesus was crucified, the casting out of demons, Jesus tempted by Satan and on and on.

Lots of stuff there to take literal or say it is allegorical. That's why I think if people, Baha'is, are going to go down that road, might as well say it is all myth and legend. And I wouldn't be surprised if some Baha'is, maybe they won't say it out loud, but that they do believe it is all just myth... And just take a few "spiritual" truths from it that they can quote once in a while... like I don't know how many times I've heard Baha'is say, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come , he will guide you into all truth..."

What I don't like is the Baha'is that tell me how much they "love" and "revere" the Bible and they do same with the Scriptures of the other religions too. Anyway, I'm going to read on and see what else has been said.

Just because Baha'is love and revere the Bible and other Scriptures, that does not mean we have to take them literally. Not even all Christians interpret the Bible literally so why should Baha'is?

You won't see much from me on this thread until tomorrow or Saturday because I have had serious life issues to deal with. Over the last two days I wrote replies to five posts from @Tiberius and saved them in Word documents, but I am not posting them until I know I will have time to answer any replies I get. Otherwise I will just feel more overwhelmed than I already am. My life is about a lot more than religion, there are many other things to tend to. I do what I can do if I have posts to answer but I am not going out of my way to talk about religion.

 

[CG Didymus]

Can't be summarized in a few words. Sorry, I don't have time for all those words. Sorry Susan @Trailblazer. Wouldn't be believed, anyway.

Christians use that a lot too. They probably use it when trying to explain "The Truth" or rather "Their Truth" to Baha'is.

That's okay Duane, I just thought I would throw it out there. You are right, it would not be believed anyway.

Maybe part of it is how the information is being presented. A nice, respectful way would probably go a lot further. Oh wait, you probably think you are being nice and respectful... never mind.

I've made it clear many times that I'll believe anything provided it has valid evidence. Since I've already stated that I'd accept it as testable evidence if it wasn't written by Mr B or based on his writing, your claim that I would just dismiss it is unreasonable and unfair.

Okay Baha'is, what's your best stuff? His character? What a nice and wise man he was? You're expecting skeptical people to not only believe in a unknowable, invisible God, but that this God sent several "special" people called "manifestations". How you gonna prove that?

 

[CG Didymus]

His body was crucified, but not His spirit according to our understanding. Isn't that a possible interpretation? Especially when it is added immediately after that Jesus was taken up to God. You're free to disagree.

And I have a question or two about that... Whose spirit is killed when their body is killed? 2000 years ago, I don't think there was a big a problem with God raising someone from the dead... especially if that someone was his only begotten Son. So, even if the story is fiction, I still think that when the gospels have the woman and the others go to the tomb and find it empty, that what they wanted people to know was that the body of Jesus was not there. So what happened to it? Well, it goes on to say that Jesus appears and disappears, that he has a body of flesh and bone but can go through closed doors. BS? Probably. But I really don't think it was a problem for the people to believe it all was true way back then. Especially, since people believe it now too.

Anyway, that's why I don't think the "allegorical" explanation is very good. I think the BS one is better... that is if it isn't true.

 

[Trailblazer]

Maybe part of it is how the information is being presented. A nice, respect way would probably go a lot further. Oh wait, you probably think you are being nice and respectful... nevermind.

I do not think that is fair because I am always respectful of people I post to and nice to them. If I feel like the only response I could give would rude or critical or start an argument, I don't answer at all. If you have not see a change from the past in how I answer posts I suggest you read more carefully. There are lots of things I am thinking that I do not say.

Maybe people just do not agree with the information that I present, but how is that my fault? I can only be honest about what I believe and present it accurately. I can't help it if people don't like the evidence I have. I cannot lie and say I have some kind of evidence I do not have.

How polite is it for people to keep asking me for evidence I don't have after I have said numerous times I don't have that kind of evidence? Are they hoping I am going to give them something I don't have? If not, why keep asking?

 

[CG Didymus]

I was an atheist (explicit rather than implicit) for many years, so I do understand the atheistic viewpoint. I was with Nietzsche:
“I have not come to know atheism as a result of logical reasoning and still less as an event in my life: in me it is a matter of instinct”.

So, when people ‘disagree with Christianity’, as you put it, I understand why they disagree. I know the arguments against Christianity -- against theism in general -- very well. I shouted them from the rooftops (not literally!)

I was always interested in the reasons why so many highly intelligent people, believed The Fairytale. Why were they so blind to common sense and logic? Why did they refuse to recognize reality?

I took a course in Philosophy of Religion at university; I met some fascinating people, read some very interesting books and enjoyed many lively discussions.

During the next few years I became aware that my atheism was not as explicit as it had been, and I moved away from my strong atheism to… well, all I can call it is ‘something else’. A gradual process from unbelief to belief followed.

You say that I want to share God's love and truth with others, and in one sense this is true, but I am not a fundamentalist or a Biblical literalist. I can usually sense when I should speak and when I should not.
If I sense that people do not want to hear about what I believe and why, I see no point whatsoever in telling them.

There are Christians who believe that every word of the Bible is divinely inspired and therefore true. I am not one of them. I favour exegesis over eisegesis, and place a great deal of emphasis on the importance of context; cherry-picking is cheating.

That's awesome. By not taking the Bible too literally, I think you might like a lot of what the Baha'i Faith teaches. What do you think so far?

 

[paarsurrey]

And I have a question or two about that... Whose spirit is killed when their body is killed? 2000 years ago, I don't think there was a big a problem with God raising someone from the dead... especially if that someone was his only begotten Son. So, even if the story is fiction, I still think that when the gospels have the woman and the others go to the tomb and find it empty, that what they wanted people to know was that the body of Jesus was not there. So what happened to it? Well, it goes on to say that Jesus appears and disappears, that he has a body of flesh and bone but can go through closed doors. BS? Probably. But I really don't think it was a problem for the people to believe it all was true way back then. Especially, since people believe it now too.

Anyway, that's why I don't think the "allegorical" explanation is very good. I think the BS one is better... that is if it isn't true.

The magenta above simply means that Jesus never died on the Cross in the first place. Jesus was injured but was the same person as before he was put on the Cross and tortured.
Jesus was secretive as he was afraid to be caught again and killed by the Jews. It is so simple. Why make it difficult, please?
Isn't it selfish of the Pauline-mythical/Christianity that they want to see Jesus dead only for the atonement of their sins, please?
Right?

Regards

 

[Truthseeker]

I have one question. Why did that cleric in Akka beg Baha'u'llah to leave the prison?

'Abdu'l-Baha asked him to. 'Abdu'l-Baha saw signs that Baha'u'llah would assent if someone begged Him to. Apparently it wasn't 'Abdu'l-Baha Himself to do the begging. Here's the story, as told by 'Abdu'l-Baha:

Bahá’u’lláh loved the beauty and verdure of the country. One day He passed the remark: “I have not gazed on verdure for nine years. The country is the world of the soul, the city is the world of bodies.” When I heard indirectly of this saying I realized that He was longing for the country, and I was sure that whatever I could do towards the carrying out of His wish would be successful. There was in ‘Akká at that time a man called Muhammad Páshá Safwat, who was very much opposed to us. He had a palace called Mazra’ih, about four miles north of the city, a lovely place, surrounded by gardens and with a stream of running water. I went and called on this Páshá at his home. I said: “Páshá, you have left the palace empty, and are living in ‘Akká.” He replied “I am an invalid and cannot leave the city. If I go there it is lonely and I am cut off from my friends.” I said: “While you are not living there and the place is empty, let it to us.” He was amazed at the proposal, but soon consented. I got the house at a very low rent, about five pounds per annum, paid him for five years and made a contract. I sent laborers to repair the place and put the garden in order and had a bath built. I also had a carriage prepared for the use of the Blessed Beauty. One day I determined to go and see the place for myself. Notwithstanding the repeated injunctions given in successive firmans that we were on no account to pass the limits of the city walls, I walked out through the City Gate. Gendarmes were on guard, but they made no objection, so I proceeded straight to the palace. The next day I again went out, with some friends and officials, unmolested and unopposed, although the guards and sentinels stood on both sides of the city gates. Another day I arranged a banquet, spread a table under the pine trees of Bahjí, and gathered round it the notables and officials of the town. In the evening we all returned to the town together.
John E. Esslemont, "Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era", 3.32

One day I went to the Holy Presence of the Blessed Beauty and said: “the palace at Mazra’ih is ready for You, and a carriage to drive You there.” (At that time there were no carriages in ‘Akká or Haifa.) He refused to go, saying: “I am a prisoner.” Later I requested Him again, but got the same answer. I went so far as to ask Him a third time, but He still said “No!” and I did not dare to insist further. There was, however, in ‘Akká a certain Muhammadan Shaykh, a well-known man with considerable influence, who loved Bahá’u’lláh and was greatly favored by Him. I called this Shaykh and explained the position to him. I said, “You are daring. Go tonight to His Holy Presence, fall on your knees before Him, take hold of His hands and do not let go until He promises to leave the city!” He was an ‘Arab.… He went directly to Bahá’u’lláh and sat down close to His knees. He took hold of the hands of the Blessed Beauty and kissed them and asked: “Why do you not leave the city?” He said: “I am a prisoner.” The Shaykh replied: “God forbid! Who has the power to make you a prisoner? You have kept yourself in prison. It was your own will to be imprisoned, and now I beg you to come out and go to the palace. It is beautiful and verdant. The trees are lovely, and the oranges like balls of fire!” As often as the Blessed Beauty said: “I am a prisoner, it cannot be,” the Shaykh took His hands and kissed them. For a whole hour he kept on pleading. At last Bahá’u’lláh said, “Khaylí khub (very good)” and the Shaykh’s patience and persistence were rewarded. In spite of the strict firman of ‘Abdu’l-’Azíz which prohibited my meeting or having any intercourse with the Blessed Perfection, I took the carriage the next day and drove with Him to the palace. No one made any objection. I left Him there and returned myself to the city.
John E. Esslemont, "Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era", 3.33

 

[Truthseeker]

Well this ties in with my last post to TB. Are the gospels "The inerrant Truth and the infallible Word of God"? Or just a bunch of embellished, fictional stories? The people are amazed at the things Jesus said too. But did he really say them? Then the story goes into how he heals people and casts out demons and raises the dead. So the problem is that things that people call "Scriptures" are unbelievable. Yet, they are expected to be believed and that leaves people struggling with how much of it to believe.

I can only say investigate for yourself as much as possible. Don't just take my word for it.

 

[Truthseeker]

And what part of this could only have happened if he was a messenger sent by God?

See, I told you wouldn't be convinced with a few words. In the end a few words from me doesn't suffice. You would have to read the sources yourself, I'm afraid.

 

[Trailblazer]

'Abdu'l-Baha asked him to. 'Abdu'l-Baha saw signs that Baha'u'llah would assent if someone begged Him to. Apparently it wasn't 'Abdu'l-Baha Himself to do the begging. Here's the story, as told by 'Abdu'l-Baha:

Bahá’u’lláh loved the beauty and verdure of the country. One day He passed the remark: “I have not gazed on verdure for nine years. The country is the world of the soul, the city is the world of bodies.” When I heard indirectly of this saying I realized that He was longing for the country, and I was sure that whatever I could do towards the carrying out of His wish would be successful. There was in ‘Akká at that time a man called Muhammad Páshá Safwat, who was very much opposed to us. He had a palace called Mazra’ih, about four miles north of the city, a lovely place, surrounded by gardens and with a stream of running water. I went and called on this Páshá at his home. I said: “Páshá, you have left the palace empty, and are living in ‘Akká.” He replied “I am an invalid and cannot leave the city. If I go there it is lonely and I am cut off from my friends.” I said: “While you are not living there and the place is empty, let it to us.” He was amazed at the proposal, but soon consented. I got the house at a very low rent, about five pounds per annum, paid him for five years and made a contract. I sent laborers to repair the place and put the garden in order and had a bath built. I also had a carriage prepared for the use of the Blessed Beauty. One day I determined to go and see the place for myself. Notwithstanding the repeated injunctions given in successive firmans that we were on no account to pass the limits of the city walls, I walked out through the City Gate. Gendarmes were on guard, but they made no objection, so I proceeded straight to the palace. The next day I again went out, with some friends and officials, unmolested and unopposed, although the guards and sentinels stood on both sides of the city gates. Another day I arranged a banquet, spread a table under the pine trees of Bahjí, and gathered round it the notables and officials of the town. In the evening we all returned to the town together.
John E. Esslemont, "Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era", 3.32

One day I went to the Holy Presence of the Blessed Beauty and said: “the palace at Mazra’ih is ready for You, and a carriage to drive You there.” (At that time there were no carriages in ‘Akká or Haifa.) He refused to go, saying: “I am a prisoner.” Later I requested Him again, but got the same answer. I went so far as to ask Him a third time, but He still said “No!” and I did not dare to insist further. There was, however, in ‘Akká a certain Muhammadan Shaykh, a well-known man with considerable influence, who loved Bahá’u’lláh and was greatly favored by Him. I called this Shaykh and explained the position to him. I said, “You are daring. Go tonight to His Holy Presence, fall on your knees before Him, take hold of His hands and do not let go until He promises to leave the city!” He was an ‘Arab.… He went directly to Bahá’u’lláh and sat down close to His knees. He took hold of the hands of the Blessed Beauty and kissed them and asked: “Why do you not leave the city?” He said: “I am a prisoner.” The Shaykh replied: “God forbid! Who has the power to make you a prisoner? You have kept yourself in prison. It was your own will to be imprisoned, and now I beg you to come out and go to the palace. It is beautiful and verdant. The trees are lovely, and the oranges like balls of fire!” As often as the Blessed Beauty said: “I am a prisoner, it cannot be,” the Shaykh took His hands and kissed them. For a whole hour he kept on pleading. At last Bahá’u’lláh said, “Khaylí khub (very good)” and the Shaykh’s patience and persistence were rewarded. In spite of the strict firman of ‘Abdu’l-’Azíz which prohibited my meeting or having any intercourse with the Blessed Perfection, I took the carriage the next day and drove with Him to the palace. No one made any objection. I left Him there and returned myself to the city.
John E. Esslemont, "Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era", 3.33

Well Duane, you know how I feel about the afterlife, but the more stories I hear about Baha'u'llah the more i want to see Him in the afterlife, and so that gives me something to look forward to after all. According to the Guardian we won't experience God directly, only the Prophets of God. I'd sure like to see Jesus too, but I don't know if I will be that blessed. Keep the stories coming!

"We will have experience of God's spirit through His Prophets in the next world, but God is too great for us to know without this Intermediary. The Prophets know God, but how is more than our human minds can grasp. We believe we may attainin the next world to seeing the Prophets. There is certainly a future life. Heaven and hell are conditions within our own beings."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, November 14, 1947)

Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File

 

[Tiberius]

See, I told you wouldn't be convinced with a few words. In the end a few words from me doesn't suffice. You would have to read the sources yourself, I'm afraid.

I asked a simple question, and I can't see how your response answers that question. It should not be difficult for you to show how your answer actually addresses what I asked.

 

[Trailblazer]

And what part of this could only have happened if he was a messenger sent by God?

The part where He did things that were superhuman.

“A certain Muhammad Karím, a native of Shíráz, who had been a witness to the rapidity and the manner in which the Báb had penned the verses with which He was inspired, has left the following testimony to posterity, after attaining, during those days, the presence of Bahá’u’lláh, and beholding with his own eyes what he himself had considered to be the only proof of the mission of the Promised One: “I bear witness that the verses revealed by Bahá’u’lláh were superior, in the rapidity with which they were penned, in the ease with which they flowed, in their lucidity, their profundity and sweetness to those which I, myself saw pour from the pen of the Báb when in His presence. Had Bahá’u’lláh no other claim to greatness, this were sufficient, in the eyes of the world and its people, that He produced such verses as have streamed this day from His pen.” God Passes By, p. 138

 

[Truthseeker]

I asked a simple question, and I can't see how your response answers that question. It should not be difficult for you to show how your answer actually addresses what I asked.

What the stories said speaks for themselves. Think about the implications yourself. I won't be a baby sitter for you and explain what they mean myself.