Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe a person who believes a god is a myth will never find one because that is the nature of a myth. My God is real so He can answer but not everyone hears.
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Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.
- Thread starter infrabenji
- Start date
I believe a person who believes a god is a myth will never find one because that is the nature of a myth. My God is real so He can answer but not everyone hears.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe it must have a design like the DNA helix and not be chaotic.
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Your god has communication difficulties?
PoetPhilosopher
Veteran Member
There's more than an element of truth to your statement, don't get me wrong. However, calling him a fire god doesn't quite paint an accurate picture either to me, as it reminds me too much of "four elements" beliefs as found in theosophy and some versions of witchcraft.
So I'd say the truth is between the two, but more leaning toward him not being a fire god, and instead so much more.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Do you actually believe that this is a good argument? "The numbers are subjective, but the result based on them is objective!"
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Sure, something weird can happen and you ask 'What's the chances?' You can't
answer your question, but you know it happened.
Re Israel - it's as if some ancient Babylonians decided to return to Iraq and build
again their ancient city, nation and even empire - during the reign of Sadaam
Hussein. And these peopel resurrected their original language. You would say
that's absurd - but this is what happened to the Jews of Israel - as foretold they
would return to a ruined landscape and take it back 'with the sword', and what was
nothing more than the backwaters of the Turkish empire would become again the
center of the world's attention actually happened. Even most Jews mocked that idea
in the late 1800's.
infrabenji
Active Member
Hey, I’ve been trying to follow along as I can with work and volunteering it’s been difficult. Are you saying there are bible prophecies that have come true? Sorry If I got it mixed up.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Exactly. I dont' mean some vague Nostradamus style 'quatrain'
but the broad Messianic/Israel ones.
infrabenji
Active Member
Okay, Ironically I just had the exact same conversation with a Muslim today about the veracity of their prophecy. Who should I believe?
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Believe the one who can convince the other one.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
And since that almost never happens; think, study, meditate. Take counsel from those you respect. Decide for yourself.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Actually, I was going to suggest this would be just cause to consider both of them wrong.
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Okay, I see that you are still in the thread and I haven't read all 29 pages.
But there is one problem in your OP. You haven't explained what religion is? In practice that matters, because even this version of religion is not the only one:
religion | Definition, Types, List of Religions, Symbols, Examples, & Facts
infrabenji
Active Member
I agree, I think everyone’s religion is specific to them. That’s probably why there are 30,000 plus different types of Christianity and hundreds of thousands of religions and offshoots of those religions. Religion is great because it can be anything you want it to be. It’s not really important to me what someone’s religion is. I’m just curious if anyone can prove that their religion is true and that their belief is justified and warranted. I hope that answers your question. It doesn’t matter to me what someone’s definition of religion is because it’s different for everyone, it seems.
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mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Okay, I will generalize that one and then answer as a Western strong skeptic:
Can anyone prove that their claims of objective reality are true and that their beliefs are justified and warranted?
No, proof, truth, justification, warranted and also those other words are a part of a classical Greek attempt to use rationality to explain objective reality. It failed and that is why today you get this:
Philosophy of science - Wikipedia
Notice the first part: "All scientific study inescapably builds on at least some essential assumptions that are untested by scientific processes.Kuhn concurs that all science is based on an approved agenda of unprovable assumptions about the character of the universe, rather than merely on empirical facts. ..."
The notion of all these words are no different than religion in effect. Truth comes in at least 4 variants and then you get cognitive relativism:
Cognitive Relativism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Historically the classical Greeks tried to do without authoritative religion and rely on democracy. That lead them to try to figure out if truth and all that could be used?!! It can't and that connects to modern human rights. It is the reason how human rights are the declaration of human rights and not the proof and truth of human rights.
As a skeptic I don't do standard religion or do I do standard truth and all that. Just as I don't need religion I don't need standard truth, proof and what not.
infrabenji
Active Member
Thank you for sharing your opinions. That was very thoughtful.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Also, you'd think that any religious belief that was objectively true would mean that everyone has the same belief. I mean, every single nuclear physicist uses the same idea of how nuclear reactions work, right?
infrabenji
Active Member
Yeah it’s honestly weirded me out how far removed from reality. My conversations here have been relatively fruitless. I haven’t come across anything substantive from a theist
Well said Tiberius. You’re a smart apple. I thought hearing arguments from different religions might give me some insight or revelation, maybe is the right word. I thought in such a popular forum called general religious debates someone would be able to demonstrate the veracity of their beliefs, but no. It’s just conjecture, baseless assertions, and fortune cookie philosophy so far. I had one guy ask me a question that he said 99% of atheists couldn’t answer. Well big surprise the answer was obvious right away. I’ve always been fascinated with religion and spend a good amount of time in study but I’ve never engaged in rhetoric with religious people speaking to the veracity of their claims. It’s always just been a hobby starting with different mythologies ( Sophocles is a personal favorite) as a child and growing up to study theology, philosophy, and religion. Apologetics and counter apologetics I’ve studied very little. So, I really have valued your insight and have enjoyed watching you engage with theists throughout the thread. I’m still happy to have a discussion or debate any religious person but I doubt that will happen again. I haven’t found many of the religious people I’ve spoken to be the most intellectually honest. I believe I have yet to see someone, no matter how strenuous their arguments, adjust their position or even take the time to consider. I know there must be cases where someone recognizes the fault in their position and makes the appropriate adjustment as I’m sure we both do when faced with the same dilemma. I just haven’t seen it and frankly I’m surprised. Sorry for the long winded response. I just wanted to tell you a little about myself and express my gratitude for your contributions to this thread or whatever it’s called.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
I've been involved in discussions like this for half my life, and I've never found that either.
Just out of curiosity, what was the question?
I get what you mean, I've found that debates tend to turn out to be the same points rehashed over time. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a thread started by someone who thinks they have come up with a new proof of God that is flawless and utterly convincing, and it turns out to be a version of the First Cause argument or something.
I continue with these debates not because I think I'll change a believer's mind (although I actually did that once, when she started actually thinking about the points I raised), but because I know there are people reading the threads that are being swayed by the appeals to emotion and other logically flawed arguments that the believers spout, and I want to provide a contrasting viewpoint so these people on the fence can see an argument against the believer's side.