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The cosmological argument revisted.

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Most cosmologists believe that the universe (and time itself) begun to exist at the big bang .

It's much more of an open question actually.

This simply means that there was a time where the universe was 10 seconds old, a time where it was 5 seconds old, a time where it was 1 second old and a point where it was zero seconds old………………..any disagreement from your part?

But no time at which it didn't exist (and zero's a bit ambiguous). It never made a transition from not existing to existing. And you've ignored the fact that time is (according to relativity) a direction through the 4-dimensional space-time manifold (generally an observer-dependant direction), not an absolute in the Newtonian sense. The manifold (assuming relativity is correct about this) definitely didn't start to exist.

Added: It's worth pointing out that relativity is the reason we think time may be finite in the past direction and also why we think the universe is a 4-dimensional manifold.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Wut?

You know no such thing, you are guessing that other universes have the same fundimental rules as this universe. A mistake often made by fundamentalists.
You can’t have married bachelors in any universe, you can’t have triangles with 4 corners in any universe, you can’t have a planet with a mass of i+2 in any universe and (I suggest) you can’t have something coming from nothing in any universe.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
You can’t have married bachelors in any universe, you can’t have triangles with 4 corners in any universe, you can’t have a planet with a mass of i+2 in any universe and (I suggest) you can’t have something coming from nothing in any universe.


So you define the logic, language and maths of another universe... tell me how you can do that?

And regarding your "you can’t have something coming from nothing in any universe"

Spontaneous creation of the universe from nothing

Just a thought.

Add to that you cannot define the logic of anything outside our universe
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
The point that I made is that the ball would still be the cause of the curvature even if there has always been a “ball+couch+curvature”…………..adding infinity doesn’t change th fact that the curvature has a cause.

If this is not your argument , then I apologize for my straw man, and I invite you to elaborate your actual argument, so that I don’t misrepresent it again

Why are you making that faulty assumption? Why not assume that there's a natural curvature to the couch that the ball has always been resting in?
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
You can’t have married bachelors in any universe, you can’t have triangles with 4 corners in any universe, you can’t have a planet with a mass of i+2 in any universe and (I suggest) you can’t have something coming from nothing in any universe.

Of course you can. You can have married bachelors in a universe where a bachelor is defined as someone who only has one wife. You can have triangles with four corners in a universe where a triangle is defined as a shape with four corners. Why do you think you can place the limitations of this universe onto every other proposed universe?
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
In that case you dont know the cosmological argument.
On the contrary, I do indeed.

But let me provide some insights:

First, the cosmological argument is generally proposed as (this is William Lane Craig's version):
  1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its existence.
  2. The universe began to exist.
  3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence.
Craig (and others) then go on to identify that "cause" as God -- but it is certainty that that is a completely separate argument, and there are no good reasons to suppose that claim to be anything more than a conjecture.

In any case, and in my view much more importantly, is premise 1, whatever begins to exist has a cause of its existence. Many people suppose (as do I) that the universe (our universe, the one we know) begain with the Big Bang. We don't know, by the way, if there are other universes each beginning with their own Big Bang, or whether there was a universe before ours that ended in as Big Crunch and then bounced back in a Big Bang.

However, those are unimportant considerations. The only important consideration for our universe is our Big Bang, the event that was the beginning of our creation:

"Given the Grand Theory of Relativity, the Big Bang is not an event at all. An event takes place within a space-time context. However, the Big Bang has no space-time context; there is neither time prior to the Big Bang nor a space in which the Big Bang occurs. Hence, the Big Bang cannot be considered as a physical event occurring at a moment of time. As Hawking notes, the finite universe has no space-time boundaries and hence lacks singularity and a beginning (Hawking, Stephen W., 1988, A Brief History of Time, New York: Bantam). Time might be multi-dimensional or imaginary, in which case one asymptotically approaches a beginning singularity but never reaches it. And without a beginning the universe requires no cause. The best one can say is that the universe is finite with respect to the past, not that it was an event with a beginning (Rundle, Bede, 2004, Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing?, Oxford: Clarendon Press.)"
 
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Ponder This

Well-Known Member
If you assume that the causes for every effect in the universe are contained in the universe, then you get infinite regression of causes. Infinite regression is a problem.
Infinite Regress Arguments (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
"An infinite regress argument is an argument that makes appeal to an infinite regress. Usually such arguments take the form of objections to a theory, with the fact that the theory implies an infinite regress being taken to be objectionable."​
That's right, an infinite regress can be a reason to reject a theory! Those who advocate for an infinite regress need to demonstrate why their theory should not be rejected.

A cause that is not contained within the universe is a known solution to the problem of a universe where every effect in the universe has a cause. The objection that a cause not contained within the universe must also have a cause shows a profound misunderstanding of the statement that "every effect in the universe must have a cause". A "cause not contained in the universe" is not a "cause contained in the universe" obviously!

Moreover, even if Infinite Regression can be shown to be an acceptable alternative, it still doesn't rule out a cause not contained within the universe. In set theory, you could examine a chain of subsets, B1 contained in B2 contained in B3 etc where the Bn+1 is Bn U {causes of the effects in Bn}. Such a chain of sets could have a cause, A, not contained in U{Bn, n=1...infinity}.

Whether or not a cause not contained within the universe or, more deeply, whether an uncaused cause is "God" is another discussion.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
On the contrary, I do indeed.

But let me provide some insights:

First, the cosmological argument is generally proposed as (this is William Lane Craig's version):
  1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its existence.
  2. The universe began to exist.
  3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence.
Craig (and others) then go on to identify that "cause" as God -- but it is certainty that that is a completely separate argument, and there are no good reasons to suppose that claim to be anything more than a conjecture.

In any case, and in my view much more importantly, is premise 1, whatever begins to exist has a cause of its existence. Many people suppose (as do I) that the universe (our universe, the one we know) begain with the Big Bang. We don't know, by the way, if there are other universes each beginning with their own Big Bang, or whether there was a universe before ours that ended in as Big Crunch and then bounced back in a Big Bang.

However, those are unimportant considerations. The only important consideration for our universe is our Big Bang, the event that was the beginning of our creation:

"Given the Grand Theory of Relativity, the Big Bang is not an event at all. An event takes place within a space-time context. However, the Big Bang has no space-time context; there is neither time prior to the Big Bang nor a space in which the Big Bang occurs. Hence, the Big Bang cannot be considered as a physical event occurring at a moment of time. As Hawking notes, the finite universe has no space-time boundaries and hence lacks singularity and a beginning (Hawking, Stephen W., 1988, A Brief History of Time, New York: Bantam). Time might be multi-dimensional or imaginary, in which case one asymptotically approaches a beginning singularity but never reaches it. And without a beginning the universe requires no cause. The best one can say is that the universe is finite with respect to the past, not that it was an event with a beginning (Rundle, Bede, 2004, Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing?, Oxford: Clarendon Press.)

I truly respect your post. After seeing so many posts with empty rhetoric and just ad hominem it was a breath of fresh air. I promise to respond, but in a few hours. I am only typing these verses because I must show your post the respect due.

5 day old baby is sleeping close by.

Peace.
 
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Heyo

Veteran Member
The traditional reply by atheist philosophers, is that you are applying the parts to the whole (all parts need a cause, so the whole thing needs a cause), in case of infinite regression. However, another way to think of it, is not in this way (parts to the whole) but through induction. If you see through induction, that infinite regression would still need a cause, then it's not applying parts to the whole.

As for the inductions, it's to see the pattern, will remain in a infinite from the finite case. And this is true. No matter how long the line (even of infinite size), they are all effects, and hence need a cause. It's through induction, and not saying, because the whole thing is effects, it requires a cause.

It's subtle, but if you see infinite regression requiring a first cause through induction, it's a solid and there is no refutation. If you see it through parts to the whole, it's a unproven reason, and unproven proof.
I'm not familiar with this refutation (and maybe not with the variant of the Cosmological Argument you are referring to).
Could you please state the exact form of the argument and the refutation? I'm under the impression that most respondents are also in the dark but assume to know what they are talking about.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Not if time is an emergent property.

For something to emerge it has to do so over a period of time. Otherwise it's popping into existence from nothing.

How is time emergent?

Existence is space and time. No time, no existence and no events.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
For something to emerge it has to do so over a period of time. Otherwise it's popping into existence from nothing.

How is time emergent?

Existence is space and time. No time, no existence and no events.
Time may be merely a measurement in our universe. Our universe, as we know it, had a beginning. But we can only get so close to that beginning with our present day level of science. Anything "before" that is unknown right now. Time as we know it may have had a beginning with the universe. We simply cannot say. Trying to use the cosmological argument as an argument for a god fails because it does not require one. One has to perform the fallacy of trying to define a god into existence. Reality does not work that way. Trust me , I tried.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
You seem to be using WLC's version of it. The original cosmological argument only stated that there was a first cause. WLC did pull the existence of God out of thin air. It is why he is laughed at.
Exactly so!

The usual form of the argument that Craig defends is:
  1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
  2. The universe began to exist.
  3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.
Craig loved that conclusion so much, he goes further, thus:
  1. The universe has a cause (from 3 above).
  2. If the universe has a cause, then an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists who sans (without) the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful. (EH asks: Now, who can show me how that logically follows -- completely made-up attributes like: uncaused, personal, beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless, enormously powerful?)
  3. Therefore, an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Time may be merely a measurement in our universe. Our universe, as we know it, had a beginning. But we can only get so close to that beginning with our present day level of science. Anything "before" that is unknown right now. Time as we know it may have had a beginning with the universe. We simply cannot say. Trying to use the cosmological argument as an argument for a god fails because it does not require one. One has to perform the fallacy of trying to define a god into existence. Reality does not work that way. Trust me , I tried.

You would have to know all of possibility, and all about cause and effect to deduce an only possibility of something self defined to exist.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The traditional reply by atheist philosophers, is that you are applying the parts to the whole (all parts need a cause, so the whole thing needs a cause), in case of infinite regression.

The fallacy is to assume that what is true of the parts is true of the whole (and vice versa). This is easily demonstrated to be untrue (see emergent phenomena, see fallacy of composition). The smallest parts of a living cell are not alive, but the organized collection of parts has that quality.

another way to think of it, is not in this way (parts to the whole) but through induction.

Surely you are aware of the limitations of induction. No number of consecutive heads from the flip of a fair coin tells you what the next flip will be.

the cosmological arguments argues for why the cosmos needs a cause and why God doesn't.

No it doesn't. It assumes that the universe needs a cause, and in the case of Craig's version, assumes a whole host of features about this cause. Look at line 4. This may be the most extreme non sequitur I've seen. Suddenly, the cause is a person with just the characteristics his religion gives this god:

1. “Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its existence.”
2. “The universe began to exist.”
3. “Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence.”
4. “If the universe has a cause of its existence, then an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans creation is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless, and enormously powerful and intelligent.”
5. “Therefore, an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans creation is “beginningless,” changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless, and enormously powerful and intelligent.”

This is just faith speaking. He's telling you what he believes by faith, and trying to make it seem like the inevitable conclusion of rigorous logic.

Incidentally, nothing can be said to exist outside of time if it persists or changes. Existence means the persistence in time through a continuous set of moments, and is only relevant to our world if it is causally connected to it, meaning can change it and/or be changed by it. If a god exists, it exists in time, and if it can affect our world, it is a part of our reality, not outside of it. This also eliminates the need of the term supernatural if all that exists is causally connected to nature. It's all nature. And if we can speak of a reality disconnected from ours such that neither can modify the other, then we are discussing something that has the same features as the nonexistent, and can be treated as such.

You have to make an exception. There has to be one cause that is not an effect.

Disagree, but even if so, let that cause be the multiverse. If we're just going to pick one of multiple logical naturalistic or supernaturalistic possibilities for no sound reason, just that we like it better, we'll be making the non sequitur fallacy considered next. There is no more reason to pick the conscious cause, a god, over the unconscious one, and if you're a fan of parsimony in hypotheses, you'll prefer the multiverse, since it doesn't require mind, thought, memory, or volition.

to say that something came from nothing is simply absurd.

Here's the problem - something absurd seems to be the case. Either something has always existed, or something came into being uncaused from nothing. They both seem impossible and counterintuitive, and though we need to be careful saying what must be true or cannot be true, it seems to me that one of these two unfathomable possibilities is correct. The error is to find only one of these two possibilities absurd and exclude the other without noticing that it is just as absurd. Eliminating either possibility is a leap of faith, and doing so results in a non sequitur - your conclusion doesn't follow logically from what preceded it. Only the introduction of an appeal to faith fallacy gets you to that conclusion, which makes the conclusion invalid.

You can’t have married bachelors in any universe, you can’t have triangles with 4 corners in any universe

Yes, thanks to the Law of Contradiction, which says that something can't be both of two mutually exclusive things at the same time. Of course, these aren't empiric truths. They're pure reason based on definitions.

But that law has dire implications for the god of the Christian Bible, who is said to be perfect, yet makes errors that it regrets and attempts to correct. No married bachelors you say? No imperfect perfect gods, either, by the same argument.

Notice also that the perfect cannot change (even its mind) and remain perfect. You can't move even one point on a perfect circle without it becoming imperfect.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
If your proposed god doesn't need a cause then the cosmos doesn't require a cause either. You can't have it both ways.
why?
it doest follow......


my proposed God didn't begin to exist


The universe did begun to exist


so there is an objective difference between one and other
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
1

Here's the problem - something absurd seems to be the case. Either something has always existed, or something came into being uncaused from nothing. They both seem impossible and counterintuitive, and though we need to be careful saying what must be true or cannot be true, it seems to me that one of these two unfathomable possibilities is correct. The error is to find only one of these two possibilities absurd and exclude the other without noticing that it is just as absurd. Eliminating either possibility is a leap of faith, and doing so results in a non sequitur - your conclusion doesn't follow logically from what preceded it. Only the introduction of an appeal to faith fallacy gets you to that conclusion, which makes the conclusion invalid.




ct.
and is absurd about the idea of a first cause?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
It's much more of an open question actually.



But no time at which it didn't exist (and zero's a bit ambiguous). It never made a transition from not existing to existing. And you've ignored the fact that time is (according to relativity) a direction through the 4-dimensional space-time manifold (generally an observer-dependant direction), not an absolute in the Newtonian sense. The manifold (assuming relativity is correct about this) definitely didn't start to exist.

Added: It's worth pointing out that relativity is the reason we think time may be finite in the past direction and also why we think the universe is a 4-dimensional manifold.



Added: It's worth pointing out that relativity is the reason we think time may be finite in the past direction and also why we think the universe is a 4-dimensional manifold.

ok if time is finite in to the past, then there is no disagrment from my part
 
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