What is the difference?

[SalixIncendium]

Not if you fully understand the entire context. In short, Hijab means to dress modestly, the literally meaning of Hijab means barrier or fence, as in a barrier or fence of modesty between a Muslim woman and random men. Ill try to summarize as much as I possibly can. The Hijab was/is meant for 2 different things
1) Identity in the way they dress. I think this one does not require me to expand on.

2) Protection for woman. Ill use this simple example, 2 girls walking in a mall or park, a Muslim girl and non Muslim girl. The Muslim girl is dressed in accordance with the "Hijab" aka dress of modesty, so she's wearing the head scarf, long sleeve loosely fit shirt and a skirt down to the ankles or some loosely fit jeans that do NOT show off her every curve. The non Muslim girl is wearing crop top short sleeve shirt and booty shorts.

Who do you think is a) most likely to get hit on? b) get more attention? c) put herself at risk of pervs and psychos? d) get raped? I know its a bit extreme but you get my point.

Now please don't answer by saying " oh well its not her fault some men are sick". That is not the point, when you go to war you wear the appropriate protective gear. When you sparring, you wear and mouthpiece and head gear. When you go out on the cold you were clothes that will keep you warm. When you are a Muslim girl that does not want the attention of men you wear the hijab aka modest clothing. Now does this mean that 0% of Muslim get hit on? of course not but i can confidently say, with 100% certainty that between the 2 girls in my example, the one on the booty shorts is putting herself in harms way.

So women should have to adjust who they are because of a man's failure to exercise self-control?

 

[firedragon]

Quran 24:31

Could you show the word hijab in this verse?

 

[darkskies]

Could you show the word hijab in this verse?

It doesn't appear in the verse. The verse does tell women about the proper ways to cover themselves.

 

[firedragon]

It doesn't appear in the verse. It does tell women about the proper ways to cover themselves.

Which part of the verse are you referring to. I am asking because obviously this is a very well hacked verse on the internet. Especially in every single anti islamic website, and dogmatic Islamic websites. And many people use different parts of this verse to justify their claims.

So which part are you referring to? Or are you just referring to the whole verse holistically? How is it telling women the proper way(s) to cover themselves?

Please explain.

 

[Earthtank]

So women should have to adjust who they are because of a man's failure to exercise self-control?

Ah yes, another classic misinterpretation of everything I said. I wont repeat nor rephrase what I said, I suggest you work on your comprehension skills.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Ah yes, another classic misinterpretation of everything I said. I wont repeat nor rephrase what I said, I suggest you work on your comprehension skills.

If you’re unable to formulate an on-topic response, just admit it instead of resorting to character attacks.

 

[darkskies]

Which part of the verse are you referring to. I am asking because obviously this is a very well hacked verse on the internet. Especially in every single anti islamic website, and dogmatic Islamic websites. And many people use different parts of this verse to justify their claims.

So which part are you referring to? Or are you just referring to the whole verse holistically? How is it telling women the proper way(s) to cover themselves?

Please explain.

I'm sure it's well hacked. It's the only one that (I've found) that says anything about modest dressing for women. I was referring to a part of it; some translations:
- And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment...
- And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity, and not to display their charms [in public] beyond what may [decently] be apparent thereof; hence, let them draw their head-coverings over their bosoms...

Honestly, reading through these, it seems more like although it mentions head covers it might be primarily a cultural reference. Perhaps it doesn't say much about being specific.

 

[Earthtank]

If you’re unable to formulate an on-topic response, just admit it instead of resorting to character attacks.

Please go back and read my full response. If you read and fully comprehended everything I said, you would not have had such an uneducated response unless you are trolling. Because in my post at actually addresses your comment because I have had this conversation before and know the quickest and laziest response I will get.

 

[Vee]

As a muslim i often hear non muslims complaining about muslim woman wearing hijab.

But why is it no problem when a western female cover her head with a scarf?

Why the big harasment of islam when if we look at history mostly all females was cocering up their hair. Especially within religious practice.

Sometimes non muslims even know why islam still practice use of hijab for female? Did you know that hijab means to be modest both for male and females?

I'm going to have to repeat what others already said. Men should be respectful and civilized enough to accept that women exist - we make about half the world's population - and seeing a women's hair shouldn't have a sexual connotation. Being modest doesn't mean one has to be completely covered and it shouldn't apply just to women. Everyone should dress respectfully.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Please go back and read my full response. If you read and fully comprehended everything I said, you would not have had such an uneducated response unless you are trolling. Because in my post at actually addresses your comment because I have had this conversation before and know the quickest and laziest response I will get.

It was a simple yes or no question. Thou doth protest too much, methinks.

 

[firedragon]

I'm sure it's well hacked. It's the only one that (I've found) that says anything about modest dressing for women. I was referring to a part of it; some translations:
- And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment...
- And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity, and not to display their charms [in public] beyond what may [decently] be apparent thereof; hence, let them draw their head-coverings over their bosoms...

Honestly, reading through these, it seems more like although it mentions head covers it might be primarily a cultural reference. Perhaps it doesn't say much about being specific.

I appreciate your analysis immensely. Its quite rare really.

Anyway, let me break this down a bit.

1. Reduce the vision or lower the gaze is said to the women and men both. The immediate previous says so.
2. Guard their private parts is also mentioned to both men and women. It is the arabic word "Farj" which when read means "chastity".
3. Drawing the head scarf over your bosoms is controversial. The word used for head scarf is "Himar" with the H pronounced with phlegm. This did not mean head scarf. It meant "any covering". Its asking women to cover their bosoms.

And you are right. Its not very specific. Its like a guide.

Peace.

 

[darkskies]

I appreciate your analysis immensely. Its quite rare really.

Anyway, let me break this down a bit.

1. Reduce the vision or lower the gaze is said to the women and men both. The immediate previous says so.
2. Guard their private parts is also mentioned to both men and women. It is the arabic word "Farj" which when read means "chastity".
3. Drawing the head scarf over your bosoms is controversial. The word used for head scarf is "Himar" with the H pronounced with phlegm. This did not mean head scarf. It meant "any covering". Its asking women to cover their bosoms.

And you are right. Its not very specific. Its like a guide.

Peace.

And I appreciate you pointing it out. Most of what I know is just from what my muslim friends say. Very vague stuff as you would imagine. Edit: FYI just a bunch of teenagers

Thank you. It's a lot more clear now. That answers a few things.

What I don't understand then, is why it's treated as if it's mandatory in so many countries. Not by law but cultural pressure. Save it for another time perhaps.

 

[stvdv]

To answer the OP question, this is my opinion,

Seems to me that the first act of violence is done by Muslims imposing on others what they should and/or should not do.

What exactly are you speaking about?

IMO:

Only within the context of the OP, and a few replies I read

IF a Muslim forces a Muslima to wear the Hijab or Burka, that would be wrong (this I called the first act of violence). And IF I see something wrong and do nothing about it, then I am also guilty (second reaction, objecting to this injustice). When a Muslima chooses herself to wear a Burka or Hijab then there is no need to say anything, and I think no sane person would ever object to a Muslima wearing a Hijab or Burka (I even like a Muslima wearing a Hijab; when done out of her free will). And Muslim men (or women) should never make those who choose to not to wear the Hijab feel quilty and never ever punish her for not wearing it.

Freedom of Religion means "Freedom of Religion". Impose on others using scare tactics or worse is the opposite of "Freedom of Religion"

Note: Maybe in the time of Muhammad, the men were really barbaric, and hence it was for women their own safety to cover up completely, then I can understand that God advised this rule. But of course God gave a clear message to the Muslim men with this dress code, though a little indirectly, that they should control their sex urges and not blame their women for being raped, just because the Muslim rapist sees part of Muslima's nose and fancies this as sexy, creating a demonic rape habit in him, and more demonic when blaming afterwards the Muslima for arousing this feeling in him. That is very immature of these Muslim men, totally not spiritual at all (level 0.000000001 on the scale of 1 to 100). And it would be about time, such Muslim men got educated to work on their own bad behavior, doing introspection instead of blaming women for being raped.

Even now I have heard Imams teach that women should wear Hijab because otherwise they would be to blame when being raped. We are living in 2021, but hearing an Imam say this, it seems to me that this Imam still lives in the Middle Ages, and has not outgrown this devilish rape behavior

I hope this clarifies my point

 

[firedragon]

IMO:

Only within the context of the OP, and a few replies I read

IF a Muslim forces a Muslima to wear the Hijab or Burka, that would be wrong (this I called the first act of violence). And IF I see something wrong and do nothing about it, then I am also guilty (second reaction, objecting to this injustice). When a Muslima chooses herself to wear a Burka or Hijab then there is no need to say anything, and I think no sane person would ever object to a Muslima wearing a Hijab or Burka (I even like a Muslima wearing a Hijab; when done out of her free will). And Muslim men (or women) should never make those who choose to not to wear the Hijab feel quilty and never ever punish her for not wearing it.

Freedom of Religion means "Freedom of Religion". Impose on others using scare tactics or worse is the opposite of "Freedom of Religion"

Note: Maybe in the time of Muhammad, the men were really barbaric, and hence it was for women their own safety to cover up completely, then I can understand that God advised this rule. But of course God gave a clear message to the Muslim men with this dress code, though a little indirectly, that they should control their sex urges and not blame their women for being raped, just because the Muslim rapist sees part of Muslima's nose and fancies this as sexy, creating a demonic rape habit in him, and more demonic when blaming afterwards the Muslima for arousing this feeling in him. That is very immature of these Muslim men, totally not spiritual at all (level 0.000000001 on the scale of 1 to 100). And it would be about time, such Muslim men got educated to work on their own bad behavior, doing introspection instead of blaming women for being raped.

Even now I have heard Imams teach that women should wear Hijab because otherwise they would be to blame when being raped. We are living in 2021, but hearing an Imam say this, it seems to me that this Imam still lives in the Middle Ages, and has not outgrown this devilish rape behavior

I hope this clarifies my point

I agree that forcing anyone in religion is wrong. Quran says that. La Ikraaha fiddheen.

But I would like to ask you something. How do you know that in the time of Muhammed those men were barbaric, and that if that is the case it is understandable etc? And you think rape has anything to do with showing a "nose" or another part of the body like a face or head? Give me the research. Why are you speaking about Muslims like that mate? Didnt you read about the Nirbhaya case in India? Do you remember what those guys said about the girl being bold enough to be roaming around at that time and she deserved to be raped? Were they all Muslims?

It is very difficult to let go of prejudices isn't it my friend?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Agree speaking with @firedragon i realized the headscarf we call hijab could be avoided if all muslims was able to control them self, it can be noticed that when muslim men come to the western countries some of them do very bad things to non muslim woman, because they are tempted by western females yes very little clothing.

So the hijab men should wear is mental strenght to be with Allah, and not with lust of flesh.

What about the other way around?

Do women have more control than men in sexual desires according to Islam?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Not if you fully understand the entire context. In short, Hijab means to dress modestly, the literally meaning of Hijab means barrier or fence, as in a barrier or fence of modesty between a Muslim woman and random men. Ill try to summarize as much as I possibly can. The Hijab was/is meant for 2 different things
1) Identity in the way they dress. I think this one does not require me to expand on.

2) Protection for woman. Ill use this simple example, 2 girls walking in a mall or park, a Muslim girl and non Muslim girl. The Muslim girl is dressed in accordance with the "Hijab" aka dress of modesty, so she's wearing the head scarf, long sleeve loosely fit shirt and a skirt down to the ankles or some loosely fit jeans that do NOT show off her every curve. The non Muslim girl is wearing crop top short sleeve shirt and booty shorts.

Who do you think is a) most likely to get hit on? b) get more attention? c) put herself at risk of pervs and psychos? d) get raped? I know its a bit extreme but you get my point.

Now please don't answer by saying " oh well its not her fault some men are sick". That is not the point, when you go to war you wear the appropriate protective gear. When you sparring, you wear and mouthpiece and head gear. When you go out on the cold you were clothes that will keep you warm. When you are a Muslim girl that does not want the attention of men you wear the hijab aka modest clothing. Now does this mean that 0% of Muslim get hit on? of course not but i can confidently say, with 100% certainty that between the 2 girls in my example, the one on the booty shorts is putting herself in harms way.

That puts more on environmental reasons than spiritual. If there were no men who hit on women (or if all men were gay, let's say), then what would be the difference between the two women in regards to how they address in spiritual terms?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I like your answer

Sometimes, we do get along on stuff, don't we?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Agree speaking with @firedragon i realized the headscarf we call hijab could be avoided if all muslims was able to control them self, it can be noticed that when muslim men come to the western countries some of them do very bad things to non muslim woman, because they are tempted by western females yes very little clothing.

So how come western men are able to control themselves much better then?
Could it perhaps be that this is so because muslim men in islamic cultures are never "trained" or taught on how to properly interact with the opposite sex? How to control their urges? How to see women as actual equals?
Could it perhaps be that this is because of the cultural idea that a woman that doesn't wear a hijab / niqaab / burqa is like a prostitute?

See this is one of the many reasons why westerners tend to view islam as "woman unfriendly".
This whole mentality is what forms the feeding ground for the idea that a woman that is raped isn't a victim but rather an adulteress. It feeds the idea that women themselves are "responsible" for getting raped.

Going forward, I think this is an important one for islamic cultures around the world to tackle.
I think it is badly needed.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

My question was not about denying. See mate, when you say something about a "majority of women" and I ask for the data that backs up your claim, its not "denying" anything. Thats a false dilemma.

@Altfish didn't say ANYTHING about a "majority" of women. That is just your strawman.

He just said that it happened "too often". He didn't say it happened in the "majority of cases".
You should not twist people's words like that in an attempt to score points.

It is very dishonest and disrespectful.

Off course you won't read this because you have me on ignore for some reason.
I guess you don't like it when I expose your subtle dishonesty all the time.

You do things like this very often.

Anyway, now you have changed your statement to "some countries".

You're the one who's changing his statement.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Who do you think is a) most likely to get hit on? b) get more attention? c) put herself at risk of pervs and psychos? d) get raped? I know its a bit extreme but you get my point.

Depends entirely on the rapist and what gets him off.

That is not the point, when you go to war you wear the appropriate protective gear. When you sparring, you wear and mouthpiece and head gear

A walk in the park is not the equivalent of "going to war".

Let me ask you the reverse question about your morally bankrupt example...

Do you consider it less of a crime if the rapist rapes one or the other?
Do you consider the woman to be less of a victim if the rapist rapes on or the other?
Do you think the rapist's punishment should be different depending on which of both he rapes?

In short: do you think both rapes would be equivalent in every way? Or are you of the opinion that the "defense" of the rapist should include "softening circumstances" if the rape victim is the western women in a miniskirt and do you think the court should keep that into account when giving its verdict and eventual punishment?

Now does this mean that 0% of Muslim get hit on? of course not but i can confidently say, with 100% certainty that between the 2 girls in my example, the one on the booty shorts is putting herself in harms way.

I think this is absolutely disgusting victim-blaming nonsense.


Let's take this "logic" and drive it home, shall we?

2 men walk in the park. One wears regular western clothing. Jeans, shirt, sneakers. The other wears a traditional islamic middle eastern robe and has a long beard.

Who do you think is most likely to be beaten up if they cross violent racists?
Clearly, the one in the robe and with the beard, right?
So, therefor according to your logic, the one in the robe with the long beard is "putting himself in harms way".


Do you want me to draw the same analogy for orthodox jews, or do you get the sillyness of the point by now?