How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[IndigoChild5559]

Yes, Mashiach means anointed one.



Now you got me. So are you saying that the one who rules Israel during the Messianic era will be a king? (No democracy?) And then will usher in world peace, bring all the Jews back to Israel (you say the Land) and he (king?) will rule from Jerusalem?

I said ruler precisely because I don't know that he will be a king -- he may in fact be a prime minister or a president democratically elected. Who knows? The rest, yes.

 

[blü 2]

Since Colossians 2:9 mentions the Trinity, the early Christians believed in the Trinity. Jesus didn't say he was God because he didn't want to sound blasphemous in his proclamations or make people think he was God the Father. The early Christians believed in God the Father and the Son of God. The Jewish Scriptures mention the plurality of God.

Genesis 1:26, KJV: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." The Trinity is not pagan doctrine. Biblical Evidence for the Godhead



Jewish people believe that the Messiah has not come yet. That is different from the doctrine of many Messiahs. That also shows that there are different interpretations of the Tanakh. The interpretations that believe in Jesus and the Trinity are no less valid than the others.

Why do you believe that the Godhead is in the Old Testament? Some people who don't believe in the Trinity believe that "let us make man in our image" in Genesis 1:26 is a reference to God talking to the angels. Do you believe that that verse was talking about when the morning stars shouted for joy? King David mentioned the Holy Spirit and Daniel 3:25 mentions the Son of God.

It wasn't church doctrine, but it was in Colossians 2:9.

Paul followed early Christianity, which was a Jewish sect that believed in the Trinity. Paul was doing what Jesus was doing when Jesus didn't outright say he was God. Paul was distinguishing Jesus from the Father to be consistent with how Jesus talked and to avoid confusing Jesus and God the Father and to be more subtle than simply outright say, "Jesus is God".

The Lord is one is a reference to the rejection of polytheism. Polytheistic gods aren't holy, just, and loving. Jesus was actually affirming his deity and showing that only God is sinless. Jesus was talking about the Son's submission to the Father within the plurality of the Trinity. Jesus said the one true God and Jesus Christ both to reject polytheism and not outright say that Jesus is God, as to not sound blasphemous and cause confusion about Jesus and the Father being the same. God the Father was the Father of Jesus in terms of being above him in authority, and the our Father because he is God the Father.

Jesus is God, but he had to be careful not to say it in a way that would sound vain, boastful, or blasphemous, because he was speaking in his humanity. He didn't want there to be any confusion about the Trinity. The Trinity belief and the belief of Jesus being God existed as early as when Jesus was preaching in Israel, which is centuries before the 4th century CE.

Since you have no interest in what's true, since you have no wish to learn, since you keep repeating points I've already rebutted, since you pay no attention to the conclusions to be reached from what you've already said, I leave you with your (weird) Jesus the Liar and Deceiver.

Ciao.

 

[Skywalker]

I said ruler precisely because I don't know that he will be a king -- he may in fact be a prime minister or a president democratically elected. Who knows? The rest, yes.

Isaiah refers to the Messiah as a king. Isaiah and the Messianic King: A Hope for the Distant Future | BibleProject™

 

[Skywalker]

Since you have no interest in what's true, since you have no wish to learn, since you keep repeating points I've already rebutted, since you pay no attention to the conclusions to be reached from what you've already said, I leave you with your (weird) Jesus the Liar and Deceiver.

Ciao.

Jesus admitted he was the Messiah directly on discreet occasions. John 4:25-26

The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”

He didn't normally word things that way because he didn't want to sound boastful or blasphemous. He spoke the truth with subtlety.

 

[Skywalker]

I have learned that the term El was possibly transferred from the language used by the Canaanites of one of their gods. -- the god El. And El is often translated from the Hebrew to English as God. But El can refer to other gods, not only the God of Israel.
Elohim, however, does not refer to multiple "equal" personalities, or persons or gods within a being called God. It refers to the excelling and surpassing of all others, including those called gods, in the majesty of the one true God. Jesus clearly said at John 17:3 - "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." He realized his Father is higher than himself, the only one to be worshiped and acknowledged that the only true God sent him to the earth as a man, leaving his esteemed position next to God. There's more but I'll leave it at that for now.
What Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Believe? (jw.org)

The Bible mentions Jesus being worshiped. He was discreet in admitting he was God, but he still accepted worship. Worshiping Jesus as God Pt. 2

B. Jesus Christ is worshiped.

According to the God-breathed Scriptures, different individuals worshiped Jesus on various occasions without a single word of rebuke from either God the Father or the Lord Jesus himself.

For instance, Christ as a child was worshiped for being the King of the Jews:

“Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, wise men came from the east to Jerusalem, saying, ‘Where is He who was born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the east and have come to worship Him.’… And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, ‘Go and search diligently for the young Child, and when you have found Him, bring me word again, so that I may come and worship Him also.’… And when they came into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary, His mother, and fell down and worshipped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.” Matthew 2:1-2, 8, 11

His own followers also worshiped him as the Son of God who sovereignly controls the natural elements, such as the winds and the seas:

“During the fourth watch of the night Jesus went to them, walking on the sea. But when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, ‘It is a spirit.’ And they cried out in fear. But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, ‘Be of good cheer. It is I (Ego Eimi – I AM ). Do not be afraid.’ Peter answered Him and said, ‘Lord, if it is You, bid me come to You on the water.’ He said, ‘Come.’ And when Peter got out of the boat, he walked on the water to go to Jesus. But when he saw the strong wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink, he cried out, ‘Lord, save me!’ Immediately Jesus reached out His hand and caught him, and said to him, ‘O you of little faith, why did you doubt?’ And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased. Then those who were in the boat came and worshipped Him, saying, ‘Truly You are the Son of God.’” Matthew 14:25-33

Nor was this the only time that the disciples worshiped Christ:

“As they went to tell His disciples, suddenly Jesus met them, saying, ‘Greetings!’ They came and took hold of His feet and worshipped Him… Then the eleven disciples went away to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. When they saw Him, they worshipped Him. But some doubted. Then Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the NAME of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.’ Amen.” Matthew 28:9, 16-20

 

[blü 2]

Jesus admitted he was the Messiah directly on discreet occasions. John 4:25-26



He didn't normally word things that way because he didn't want to sound boastful or blasphemous. He spoke the truth with subtlety.

Ciao.

 

[YoursTrue]

I said ruler precisely because I don't know that he will be a king -- he may in fact be a prime minister or a president democratically elected. Who knows? The rest, yes.

It's been quite a long time now since the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. All those years -- this is one reason why I believe Bible prophecy is being fulfilled. There are many things discovered that prove, or enhance the viewpoint that what the Bible says is true. Have a nice night, I look forward to the time this earth is going to be a Paradise, or Gan Eden again.

 

[YoursTrue]

It would have been necessary for him to have been King over Israel and bring back all Israel (lost tribes and all) to their land, among other things.

Not sure why you seem to be linking Rabbi Schneerson to Jews for Judaism though? Unless I'm misreading you and you just changed the topic.

It doesnt really matter if I'm linking the rather famous M. Schneerson to the list of prophecies, because during his lifetime the Jewish population didn't go back to Israel. So that should have disqualified him?

 

[Skywalker]

It's been quite a long time now since the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. All those years -- this is one reason why I believe Bible prophecy is being fulfilled. There are many things discovered that prove, or enhance the viewpoint that what the Bible says is true. Have a nice night, I look forward to the time this earth is going to be a Paradise, or Gan Eden again.

Jesus didn't say he was God because he didn't want people to think he was God the Father. Revisiting “Where Did Jesus Say ‘I am God’” – A Response to the Muhammedan Site “Do Not Say Trinity”

The problem is that if Jesus were to come out and say “I am God” without clearly and forcefully establishing his personal distinction from the Father, and His deity in relation to that fact, people would think He was claiming to be the same person as the Father. This is because God was used primarily in reference to the Father and virtually served as His proper name. In other words, to come out and say “I am God” instead of first establishing His distinction from the Father, would lead His followers into thinking He was making himself out to be the Father in heaven.(1) This is why Jesus didn’t just walk around saying “I am God” as the Muslims demand.

Thus, Jesus needed to communicate His deity in such a way that His audience would know that He wasn’t claiming to be the Father, even though He was claiming to be God. In light of this, there was no better way for Jesus to affirm the fact that He is God then by the way the Gospels report he did, e.g. the unique Son of God and divine Son of Man who is coequal with the Father in essence, and also by applying divine titles and metaphors to Himself.

For instance, Jesus applied an Old Testament title “I Am” to himself, which is significant since he was basically making himself out to be the OT figure known as the Angel of the Lord, the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14! There were many different Jewish strands at that time that already maintained that this figure was God and yet distinct from God.(2) Thus, by using the title “I Am” Jesus was affirming both His deity as well as His distinction from the Father since in the Old Testament “I Am” was applied to both God (cf. Deuteronomy 32:39; Isaiah 43:13) and the Angel of the Lord (cf. Exodus 3:14). One needs to understand intertestimental Jewish thinking in order to understand these issues properly. Without this pre-Christian Jewish backdrop in mind Muslims will be unable to understand why Jesus did what He did and said the things He said.

In summary, although Christ didn’t say “I am God” without qualification, which would have led people to think he was the Father, he did apply numerous Old Testament titles of God to Himself while going out of his way to affirm that He is not the Father.

Therefore, it is understandable why Jesus didn’t say “I am God” during His earthly ministry. That would severely complicate things and lead to a mistaken notion of the Godhead. Jesus affirmed the equivalent of “I am God” in a brilliant way while safeguarding the fact that He and the Father are personally distinct from each other.

 

[Rival]

It doesnt really matter if I'm linking the rather famous M. Schneerson to the list of prophecies, because during his lifetime the Jewish population didn't go back to Israel. So that should have disqualified him?

It.

Did.

Disqualify.

Him.

What are you missing here exactly? A tiny portion of a Jewish sect believed/s he was/is the Messiah. Literally no-one else does. What point are you trying to make?

 

[Skywalker]

It.

Did.

Disqualify.

Him.

What are you missing here exactly? A tiny portion of a Jewish sect believed/s he was/is the Messiah. Literally no-one else does. What point are you trying to make?

What makes their beliefs less likely than any other beliefs? The Jewish beliefs about who the Messiah is being all different shows that they are not based on what the Bible explicitly says, they are interpretations. What makes the interpretations of rabbis more valid than Daniel 7:13–14 is about Jesus, the Son of Man?

I believe that God being a just judge supports the Messianic belief of who the Messiah is-God who made a way for our sins to be forgiven.

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm really not sure what you're trying to get at here? I agree with you. None of the messianic stuff has happened yet. Rabbi Schneerson is dead; he clearly wasn't the Mashiach. Not everyone who followed/follows this Rabbi believed he was; it's just a sect within a sect that believes he was.

Yes, but that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that IF the people really want and believe the Messiah will (should?) come -- shouldn't they all move to Israel, at least for starters?

 

[YoursTrue]

It.

Did.

Disqualify.

Him.

What are you missing here exactly? A tiny portion of a Jewish sect believed/s he was/is the Messiah. Literally no-one else does. What point are you trying to make?

OK, I answered that in my previous post. Thanks.

 

[Harel13]

Yes, but that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that IF the people really want and believe the Messiah will (should?) come -- shouldn't they all move to Israel, at least for starters?

I'm with you that they should. However, there are some halachic authorities that invoke an exilic concept known as "The Three Oaths". These are three prohibitions, two for Israel and one for the nations of the world, that the respective people must follow during Israel's Diaspora. One of the prohibitions is making mass aliyah to Israel. It's a fascinating discussion as to why the Zionistic authorities hold that the oaths are no longer relevant while anti-Zionistic authorities still adhere to them.

Moreover, diaspora mentality has settled in. It's not simple to just pick up your things and leave to a new place, with a new language and new rules. And what if you've got old and/or sick relatives who can't leave? And who'll preserve the old synagogues and cemeteries?

 

[Rival]

Yes, but that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that IF the people really want and believe the Messiah will (should?) come -- shouldn't they all move to Israel, at least for starters?

Yes, but I'm still not sure why you're fixated on this. This is my confusion. They should return to Israel, of course. Who is arguing with you about this? But there have been plenty of other messiah claimants before and after him. I don't understand this focus on this particular man. He would have needed to do much more than this, as you note, including bringing back the lost tribes.

Unless I totally missed something throughout this conversation that explains the Rabbi Schneerson focus, why aren't we talking about any of these other guys, for example?

List of Jewish messiah claimants - Wikipedia

IOW I'm trying to find the debate point here. I agree with you on pretty much everything you're saying. What are you trying to bring to the table with which I disagree?

 

[Skywalker]

I'm with you that they should. However, there are some halachic authorities that invoke an exilic concept known as "The Three Oaths". These are three prohibitions, two for Israel and one for the nations of the world, that the respective people must follow during Israel's Diaspora. One of the prohibitions is making mass aliyah to Israel. It's a fascinating discussion as to why the Zionistic authorities hold that the oaths are no longer relevant while anti-Zionistic authorities still adhere to them.

Moreover, diaspora mentality has settled in. It's not simple to just pick up your things and leave to a new place, with a new language and new rules. And what if you've got old and/or sick relatives who can't leave? And who'll preserve the old synagogues and cemeteries?

Why do you think that rules changed for Jewish people after the diaspora? I believe that the Talmud came from the Pharisees, the same people who rejected Jesus, not the law of Moses.

 

[Harel13]

Why do you think that rules changed for Jewish people after the diaspora? I believe that the Talmud came from the Pharisees, the same people who rejected Jesus, not the law of Moses.

Huh?



What does this have to do with what I wrote?

 

[Skywalker]

Huh?



What does this have to do with what I wrote?

The prohibitions that exist during the diaspora are not based off the Tanakh. Israel regathered in the 1940s.

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm with you that they should. However, there are some halachic authorities that invoke an exilic concept known as "The Three Oaths". These are three prohibitions, two for Israel and one for the nations of the world, that the respective people must follow during Israel's Diaspora. One of the prohibitions is making mass aliyah to Israel. It's a fascinating discussion as to why the Zionistic authorities hold that the oaths are no longer relevant while anti-Zionistic authorities still adhere to them.

Moreover, diaspora mentality has settled in. It's not simple to just pick up your things and leave to a new place, with a new language and new rules. And what if you've got old and/or sick relatives who can't leave? And who'll preserve the old synagogues and cemeteries?

The website I'm looking at about Jewish idea of what would constitute the Messiah says
"He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son "
Question -- how would you know?
(From JewsforJudaism.org)

 

[Skywalker]

The website I'm looking at about Jewish idea of what would constitute the Messiah says
"He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son "
Question -- how would you know?
(From JewsforJudaism.org)

Joseph was a descendant of Solomon and Mary was a descendant of David's son Nathan.