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Featured How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by ayin, Dec 29, 2020.

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  1. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    1st John is not part of the four gospels but the gospel of John is.
     
  2. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Who are we that God has to introduce himself to us?
     
  3. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Jesus didn't outright say he was God because it would have caused confusion but he implied it. Why did Jesus never say, "I am God, and there is none else"?

     
  4. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Then why did he run away when people tried to kill him?
     
  5. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    A parent who doesn’t bother doesn’t deserve respect.
     
  6. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Parents also want kids to reach out to them.
     
  7. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    When the Jews tried to kill Jesus, that wasn't the time of his crucifixion.
     
  8. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Dear oh dear!

    Don't you ever read what I post?

    Here are eleven of Jesus' denials that he's God, all from John ─

    John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

    John 5:19the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

    John 5:30I can do nothing on my own authority; [...] I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

    John 6:38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me

    John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

    John 10:29My Father [...] is greater than all”.

    John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

    John 14:10 “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.”

    John 14:28 [...] I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.

    John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

    John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
    So stop trying to pretend that in the NT Jesus somehow says he's God. Nowhere does he claim to be God.

    Instead in all four gospels he says he is not God, a view supported in Paul, 2 Timothy and 1 John.

    Oh, and I assume you've checked what I several times told you before, and you now know that the Trinity doctrine doesn't exist till the 4th century CE, right? It's not in the NT and if there was an historical Jesus he'd never heard of it, right?

    So as I keep pointing out, with the NT every time you say Jesus is God, you're calling Jesus a liar and deceiver every time he's said loud and plain he isn't God.

    Since (as in my previous posts and as above) you can now see that you're wrong, and that you have not a single example of Jesus saying "I am God",

    either
    admit to yourself that the NT never says Jesus is God

    or
    tell me what other lies and deceits you attribute to Jesus.
     
    #1388 blü 2, Jan 7, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
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  9. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    People never saw the Father or God in his fullness, they only saw Jesus. The Son is in submission to the Father, and came down from heaven to do his will. The Father has greater authority than Jesus Christ, but they are equally God. https://carm.org/bible-difficulties...didnt-he-know-the-time-of-christs-return-man/

     
  10. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Not according to Jesus. Not according to Paul. Not according to whoever wrote 2 Timothy and whoever wrote 1 John.

    There is one God of the Jews, who is not repeat not repeat not Triune.

    The God of the Jews is the God of Jesus, a circumcised Jew.

    The Trinity doctrine doesn't exist in Jesus day, or in the century after, or in the century after that. It's not invented till the fourth century. Since you know that because I've told you repeatedly and you've independently checked it out, please stop pretending otherwise.

    Jesus never once claims to be God.

    So you're willfully trying to impose your own wishes on a set of texts that you know say Jesus isn't God.

    By all means claim that in the fourth century the Christians promoted Jesus to God status with a doctrine which is incoherent ("a mystery in the strict sense"). That would be true.

    What you're claiming is simply untrue, as has been amply demonstrated to you.

    Or is it the case, as Colonel Jessup notably put it, that "You can't handle the truth!" ?
     
  11. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was saying he came because of the will of the one who sent him, to distinguish himself from God the Father. That's also why Jesus said he didn't come of his own accord. The Father is greater in authority than Jesus. When Jesus said ye believe in God in John 14:1, he was talking about the triune God Yahweh, which includes himself. Colossians 2:9 mentions the Godhead, which means the same exact thing as the Trinity.
    "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

    Jesus said he didn't speak on his own authority and the Father is greater than him to distinguish himself from God the Father. He didn't mean that he isn't the one true God. Saying the Father was his God was a way to vividly distinguish himself from being God the Father. It's also possible that Jesus was referring to Yahweh as "My God", not just himself. Revisiting “Where Did Jesus Say ‘I am God’” – A Response to the Muhammedan Site “Do Not Say Trinity”

     
  12. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus identified the person who sent him as "my God" and himself as the one his God had sent. You're not reading the text with an open mind because you don't want to admit you're wrong.
    Indeed he is ─ there's only one God of the Jews, and Jesus' Father is that God and Jesus is not.

    All you're doing is making up desperate excuses and repeating your wilful errors. You still pretend the Trinity doctrine existed before the fourth century, for instance. It didn't. The gospel authors, and given an historical Jesus, Jesus, had never heard of such a thing. They were Jews and Jews do not hold triune beliefs about God ─ which is to their credit, since the Trinity doctrine is not only actually incoherent but officially so.
     
  13. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    By ""my God" Jesus meant the Father. He didn't say the Father because wording it to imply directly that he's the Son of God would confuse people as to if he was the Father or Spirit, and it would sound blasphemous to outright say he was God. Jesus was being subtle.

    The Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament, Jesus, is God the Son, and he is part of the plurality of the triune God Yahweh, the God of the Jews. Jesus is Yahweh the God of the Jews because the Bible uses the same language about Jesus that it does about Yahweh.

    Colossians 2:9 existed before the fourth century. That verse of the Bible refers to the Trinity by the term the Godhead.

    The Jewish Christians believed in the Trinity because they had different beliefs from Rabbinic Judaism. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

     
  14. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    That's theological nonsense. We're talking about the god of the Jews, remember, not the 4th century CE incoherent triune God of the Christians.
    You can't produce a single NT quote that even vaguely supports that view ─ no surprise, because like too much of your stuff, it's baseless.

    When was the Trinity doctrine declared to be part of Church doctrine. do you say? Cite your authority.


    And lest we drift away from the topic, what other lies and deceits do you attribute to Jesus, apart from his denials that he's God?
     
  15. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Judaism and Christianity were one when Christianity was a Jewish sect. Jewish Christian - Wikipedia

    If the Messiah is coming the future and will only come once, why would there be two Messiahs? I believe that there being two Messiahs is a re-interpreting the second coming of Jesus without outright denying that there is some truth in texts like Zechariah 14:4, to fit having a religion instead of a relationship with God, but I don't know why people believe what they believe. There are different interpretations of Judaism.

    Colossians 2:9 talks about the Trinity. "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." The Godhead is the Father, the Holy Spirit, and God the Son.

    The Trinity became a part of the Church doctrine in the 4th century but the idea of the Trinity existed, with the language of the Godhead, since Paul wrote Colossians.

    Jesus saying before Abraham was I am showed that he was God, because God told Moses I am that I am.
     
  16. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    I remember reading it, but as usual, not all rabbis or rabbinical commentary agree with one another. I didn't write the reference down, and I looked for it again but it didn't pop up. And as you probably know, the Babylonian Talmud is rather long. So I apologize that I can't find it right now.
     
  17. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, and they worshiped the non-triune Jewish God. If you think the Jewish God was triune, ask any Jewish person.
    In the Tanakh there can be as many messiahs as you like. The messiah is a human anointed by the Jewish priesthood, not a supernatural being,
    You're just making stuff up, trying to retrofit. The Godhead is the Jewish non-triune God. There's no mention of the Son or the Ghost,
    Yes, and it wasn't church doctrine till then.
    Total rubbish. Paul was also a Jew and his God was non-triuine, and his Jesus ─ as you've seen ─ was "Lord" as distinct from the Father's singular "God".

    So you're still calling Jesus a liar, and you're still failing to clarify the point.

    Be so kind as to answer without evasion. Having said that Jesus was lying when he said eg

    ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one' {Mark 12:29)
    "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.” (Luke 18:18)
    the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing” (John 5:19)
    “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3)
    "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” (John 20:17)​

    what other lies do you say he told?

    And don't waste everyone's time trying to explain the quotes away. Their meaning is plain ─ Jesus is not God.

    He's not God till the latter 4th century CE, as we've agreed.
     
  18. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Since Colossians 2:9 mentions the Trinity, the early Christians believed in the Trinity. Jesus didn't say he was God because he didn't want to sound blasphemous in his proclamations or make people think he was God the Father. The early Christians believed in God the Father and the Son of God. The Jewish Scriptures mention the plurality of God.

    Genesis 1:26, KJV: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." The Trinity is not pagan doctrine. Biblical Evidence for the Godhead

    Jewish people believe that the Messiah has not come yet. That is different from the doctrine of many Messiahs. That also shows that there are different interpretations of the Tanakh. The interpretations that believe in Jesus and the Trinity are no less valid than the others.

    Why do you believe that the Godhead is in the Old Testament? Some people who don't believe in the Trinity believe that "let us make man in our image" in Genesis 1:26 is a reference to God talking to the angels. Do you believe that that verse was talking about when the morning stars shouted for joy? King David mentioned the Holy Spirit and Daniel 3:25 mentions the Son of God.

    It wasn't church doctrine, but it was in Colossians 2:9.

    Paul followed early Christianity, which was a Jewish sect that believed in the Trinity. Paul was doing what Jesus was doing when Jesus didn't outright say he was God. Paul was distinguishing Jesus from the Father to be consistent with how Jesus talked and to avoid confusing Jesus and God the Father and to be more subtle than simply outright say, "Jesus is God".

    The Lord is one is a reference to the rejection of polytheism. Polytheistic gods aren't holy, just, and loving. Jesus was actually affirming his deity and showing that only God is sinless. Jesus was talking about the Son's submission to the Father within the plurality of the Trinity. Jesus said the one true God and Jesus Christ both to reject polytheism and not outright say that Jesus is God, as to not sound blasphemous and cause confusion about Jesus and the Father being the same. God the Father was the Father of Jesus in terms of being above him in authority, and the our Father because he is God the Father.

    Jesus is God, but he had to be careful not to say it in a way that would sound vain, boastful, or blasphemous, because he was speaking in his humanity. He didn't want there to be any confusion about the Trinity. The Trinity belief and the belief of Jesus being God existed as early as when Jesus was preaching in Israel, which is centuries before the 4th century CE.
     
  19. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    I have learned that the term El was possibly transferred from the language used by the Canaanites of one of their gods. -- the god El. And El is often translated from the Hebrew to English as God. But El can refer to other gods, not only the God of Israel.
    Elohim, however, does not refer to multiple "equal" personalities, or persons or gods within a being called God. It refers to the excelling and surpassing of all others, including those called gods, in the majesty of the one true God. Jesus clearly said at John 17:3 - "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." He realized his Father is higher than himself, the only one to be worshiped and acknowledged that the only true God sent him to the earth as a man, leaving his esteemed position next to God. There's more but I'll leave it at that for now.
    What Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Believe? (jw.org)
     
  20. YoursTrue

    YoursTrue We know gravity by happenstance. (Newton)

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    Yes, Mashiach means anointed one.

    Now you got me. So are you saying that the one who rules Israel during the Messianic era will be a king? (No democracy?) And then will usher in world peace, bring all the Jews back to Israel (you say the Land) and he (king?) will rule from Jerusalem?
     
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