How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[dybmh]

God is love.

God is more than love. God created love.

The Holy Spirit is the power of love. Should I not value them?

The spirit you're describing is not holy. It's a spirit whose mission is to tempt people into breaking their commitments by offering love and power. It exists in the ego as the corruption of ambition and desire. It is the same spirit that tempted Eve in the story of the Garden of Eden.

Ambition and desire can be used to do both good and evil. If it is used to tempt a person (for example) to break their commitment to their family and children, that would be an evil thing. If it used to tempt a person to break their commitment to God it would be a very evil thing. That is what you are describing below.

The law that is eternal is not broken or abolished; the eternal law is love. The Spirit of love completes all that is in the moral Law. That's what makes it better, and that's what makes it God's righteousness rather than man's righteousness. The unconditional love of God is the fulfilment of the law. You cannot know life in that kingdom of love, or kingdom of God, until you receive the Spirit of Christ.

Paul didn't say that the law was in any way wrong. But he did believe that it was necessary to have the law written on the heart. He also discovered that there was power in the Holy Spirit than did not exist in religion.

 

[YoursTrue]

There is a concept of faith, or loyalty ['emun'], in the Torah.

Deuteronomy 19,20. [JPS 1985 Edition].
'The LORD saw and was vexed
And spurned His sons and His daughters.
He said:
I will hide My countenance from them,
And see how they fare in the end.
For they are a treacherous breed,
Children with no loyalty in them.
They incensed Me with no-gods,
Vexed me with their futilities,
I'll incense them with a no-folk,
vex them with a nation of fools.'

This concept of faith is confirmed in the Prophets.

Habakkuk 2:4. [JPS 1985 Edition]
'Lo, his spirit within him is puffed up, not upright,
But the righteous man is rewarded with life
For his fidelity.' ['emunah']

If the righteous man is rewarded for his loyalty, fidelity, or faith, then we should ask what loyalty or faith involves. Paul defines faith as, 'the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen'. This is applicable to many who followed God in faith. Paul mentions a number of them by name: Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sara, Isaac, Jacob, Joesph, Moses, Gedeon, Barak, Samson, Jephthae, David, Samuel and other prophets.

Yet, this concept of faith you seem unable to accept as of the Torah. So where does Abraham stand in the eyes of a Jew?

Again, these are Paul's words, 'Therefore sprang there even of one [Abraham], and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
These all [individuals named in previous verses] died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
And truly, had they been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had the opportunity to have returned.
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.'

So, how is righteousness to be achieved, according to the Torah? Do you really believe that you can enter the heavenly by your own imperfect works?

And religion in general, including the standard socalled christian religions, they aren't going to exonerate themselves, no matter how holy they may appear to be. The Bible has a warning for all those that get the message. It's very serious. Revelation 18:4 - And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Speaking of what is called Babylon the Great. Those that see will see.

 

[YoursTrue]

Cain obviously had murderous hatred and jealousy in his heart. God saw that. It's a good thing we can't hide from God. At the end there will be "nowhere to run, nowhere to hide." Jehovah the Almighty and true God allowed Adam and Eve to keep living (for a while) after they sinned and incurred the death penalty on themselves. He did not withdraw the penalty.

 

[Skywalker]

No games here. This is all intellectual. The text was written in Hebrew and that is the source. Nothing else. Kind of like that British law called the law of best evidence which states. The best evidence rule is a legal principle that holds an original of a document as superior evidence. The rule specifies that secondary evidence, such as a copy or facsimile, will be not admissible if an original document exists and can be obtained.



Yeah, you read Iyov (Job) 1 through 19 first.

If you give me your email address I can set up a zoom and we can go through the entire text line by line, in Hebrew, and then you will know what 19:25-27 means.

Sometimes evidence in law is hidden, like when a spouse sell assets before a divorce. Isaiah 53 used to be read in synagogues but the rabbis removed it from the yearly reading.

 

[Skywalker]

His place of birth is undisclosed. He can come from anywhere in the world.

Why does Micah 5:2 mention Bethlehem?

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”

Bible Gateway passage: Micah 5:2 - New International Version

 

[Redemptionsong]

Zion is always used as either synonymously with Jerusalem or as an anthropomorphism of the Israelites who lived there.

You do yourself no favors by saying that Isaiah 49:14 is about the Messiah/son of G-d. Cities in Hebrew are feminine nouns and all the verbs there are ...feminine. It's again anthropomorphizing the city as a reference to the Israelites who lived there.


I am not.

The place's significance is that it holds the people...


Do you know what anthropomorphism means? Do you see any anthropomorphism in those verses?

I know what anthropomorphism means, and I can see why/how one might link the clan with the place, or house, but this should not lead one to disassociate the people from the place. The one who comes forth (even from the stem of Jesse) is coming forth not just from the people, but from the place. Had this not been the case, Bethlehem would not have been mentioned in the prophecy. Micah, like Isaiah, could have prophesied the coming of the ruler of Israel as coming from Jesse, without mention of Bethlehem [Isaiah 11:1].

Micah 5:1 [JPS Edition 1985]
'And you, O Bethlehem of Ephrath,
Least among the clans of Judah,
From you one shall come forth
To rule Israel for Me-
One whose origin is from of old,
From ancient times.'

 

[rosends]

Oh look...lies
Debunking "The Forbidden Chapter” Isaiah 53 Conspiracy
Are the Jews Hiding Something? | Outreach Judaism

or as one quora user wrote it,
"of over 900 chapters, less than 60 are read as a Haftorah! the reality is that they are not neglected, they just were never selected to be a Haftorah and are studied at other times."

Isaiah 53: The Suffering Servant

the repeated claim about a supposed historian who "admitted" that the chapter used to be read isn't supported by any evidence or attribution. It is a fake claim, invented to support a fake claim.

 

[Redemptionsong]

God is more than love. God created love.


The spirit you're describing is not holy. It's a spirit whose mission is to tempt people into breaking their commitments by offering love and power. It exists in the ego as the corruption of ambition and desire. It is the same spirit that tempted Eve in the story of the Garden of Eden.

Ambition and desire can be used to do both good and evil. If it is used to tempt a person (for example) to break their commitment to their family and children, that would be an evil thing. If it used to tempt a person to break their commitment to God it would be a very evil thing. That is what you are describing below.

What do you mean, God is more than love! What is MORE than God's love? If God created love, with what did He create it? What motivates creation, if not love?

Where does it say that the Holy Spirit tempts people to break their commitment to family and children?! Love does not do such things.

 

[Redemptionsong]

And religion in general, including the standard socalled christian religions, they aren't going to exonerate themselves, no matter how holy they may appear to be. The Bible has a warning for all those that get the message. It's very serious. Revelation 18:4 - And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Speaking of what is called Babylon the Great. Those that see will see.

I agree. We are all judged by the same God.

 

[ayin]

Oh look...lies
Debunking "The Forbidden Chapter” Isaiah 53 Conspiracy
Are the Jews Hiding Something? | Outreach Judaism

or as one quora user wrote it,
"of over 900 chapters, less than 60 are read as a Haftorah! the reality is that they are not neglected, they just were never selected to be a Haftorah and are studied at other times."

Isaiah 53: The Suffering Servant

the repeated claim about a supposed historian who "admitted" that the chapter used to be read isn't supported by any evidence or attribution. It is a fake claim, invented to support a fake claim.

Why are you like that? Why are you so desperately trying to refute Jesus?

 

[Wandering Monk]

What do you mean, God is more than love! What is MORE than God's love? If God created love, with what did He create it? What motivates creation, if not love?

Where does it say that the Holy Spirit tempts people to break their commitment to family and children?! Love does not do such things.

So, the God who allowed the Holocaust is all about love? Bovine scatology, I say.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Why are you like that? Why are you so desperately trying to refute Jesus?

Why are you so desperately proselytizing?

 

[ayin]

Why are you so desperately proselytizing?

I'm not, I'm just saying what I'm thinking right now.

 

[dybmh]

What do you mean, God is more than love! What is MORE than God's love?

God is infinite.

If God created love, with what did He create it? What motivates creation, if not love?

From infinity.

Where does it say that the Holy Spirit tempts people to break their commitment to family and children?! Love does not do such things.

Matthew 19:29

 

[Redemptionsong]

A) but who cares what Jesus might have said
B) creating a differentiation between an "inner" and "outer" law is arbitrary, artificial and useless
C) inventing an "inner law of love" is doubly useless

What Jesus says challenges those who think that the law is enough.

'Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.'

Our 'natural' instinct is to resist evil. The leading of the Holy Spirit is not to resist evil with evil. Which is it to be?

 

[ayin]

Matthew 19:29

[Gen 12:1] And the LORD had spoken unto Abram: Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto the land which I will shew thee.

 

[Redemptionsong]

God is infinite.

From infinity.



Matthew 19:29

Being infinite doesn't mean you have any creative qualities.

Matthew 19:29, read in context, shows that 'forsaken' means 'to send or let away'. A person who lets go houses, brethren, sisters, father, mother, wife, children or lands, for His name's sake, will receive a greater reward - eternal life. You can love all your family, and still do what God calls you to do.

 

[dybmh]

[Gen 12:1] And the LORD had spoken unto Abram: Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto the land which I will shew thee.

Abram was unmarried, without children. He was not breaking a commitment to his family. He was distancing himself from idol worship.

In Matthew 19:29 individuals are being tempted with eternal life to leave their wives and children breaking their commitments.

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."

The important detail is they are being tempted with a magnificient reward for abandoning their wives and children.

 

[ayin]

Abram was unmarried, without children. He was not breaking a commitment to his family. He was distancing himself from idol worship.

In Matthew 19:29 individuals are being tempted with eternal life to leave their wives and children breaking their commitments.

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life."

The important detail is they are being tempted with a magnificient reward for abandoning their wives and children.

The question is who to leave? This refers to people who do not want to accept Jesus and live against God's will. One should leave them. But people who live according to Jesus' will should not be abandoned. Is that a problem for you?

 

[Redemptionsong]

So, the God who allowed the Holocaust is all about love? Bovine scatology, I say.

I would encourage you to read the autobiography of Corrie ten Boom, The Hiding Place.