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Biblical prophecies and statements. Are they about Jesus Christ or Bahaullah?

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
That is why in Revelation we read that Islam became a dead body laying in the street for 1260 years.
Not exactly, the Two Witnesses, again, prophecy for 1260 days, which Baha'is turn into 1260 lunar years to get to 1844. After they have prophesied for those 1260 days, they are killed and their bodies lie in the street in the city where their Lord was crucified for 3 1/2 days... which are also converted to 1260 lunar years and start and stop with 621AD and end in 1844. So both the 1260 days and the 3 1/2 days start and end at the same time? Oh and what city was their Lord crucified? The only answer I see a Baha'i can give is a symbolic one. Which doesn't mean much to a non-Baha'i.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
John the Baptist is not the reincarnation of Elijah. The star you are talking about is the star of Bethlehem. Moses prepared the way for Jesus, not Mohammed.

Correct, there was not reincarnation, John the Baptist was the return of the Spirit that was found in Elijah.

Muhammad was the return of the Spirit that was Jesus, that is the Christ Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

Jesus prepared the way for Muhammad, Muhammad prepared the way for the Bab and the Bab prepared the way for Baha’u’llah.

Regards Tony
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Correct, there was not reincarnation, John the Baptist was the return of the Spirit that was found in Elijah.

Muhammad was the return of the Spirit that was Jesus, that is the Christ Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

Jesus prepared the way for Muhammad, Muhammad prepared the way for the Bab and the Bab prepared the way for Baha’u’llah.

Regards Tony

Are you referring to the Holy Spirit? Jesus didnt prepare the way for Mohammad because their teachings contradict each other.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Do you think it contradicts itself?

The idea of making all religions one sounds like the New World Order and the Antichrist. I believe the Antichrist will be viewed as the Messiah by the Jews, Muslims, and Bahai. What you said about wierd things they call prophecies, reminds me of this article. Muhammad's False Prophecies What are the similarities between Mormonism and Islam? | CARM.org

I believe in trusting God, not on what Christians say. God puts people in our lives to help us out, but we cant take what the pastor says to the most minute detail.
Yes, I believe there are contradictions. But I also believe that what the Baha'is say contradicts what the Bible says.

And yes, the Christian interpretation that thinks an Anti-Christ will arise and form a world government does sound like what might be happening with the Baha'i Faith. But how solid are those interpretations that say an Anti-Christ will do that?
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Yes, I believe there are contradictions. But I also believe that what the Baha'is say contradicts what the Bible says.

And yes, the Christian interpretation that thinks an Anti-Christ will arise and form a world government does sound like what might be happening with the Baha'i Faith. But how solid are those interpretations that say an Anti-Christ will do that?

Preterism is doubtful. Rob Bell: Populating Hell | Good Fight Ministries

Rob Bell takes every possible liberty to deny reality and to either explain Hell away or get everyone into Heaven, regardless of his or her rejection of God and the Gospel. Bell not only empties Hell of God’s holy wrath, he creates an exit door from the inside out and claims that Hell is merely what we make it. He also claims that most of the imagery of future judgments in Hell were fulfilled on earth in AD 70 (p. 81).

Of course, Bell’s appeal to preterism falls flat for a plethora of exegetical reasons. It will suffice at this juncture to point out that the early church fathers, such as Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John) and Irrenaeus, inform us that the book of Revelation was written by the apostle John during the reign of Domitian in the 90’s, more than 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem. Thus, the book of Revelation, for that reason and many others, could not have been describing what happened in AD 70!

Ultimately, Rob Bell trivializes what Hell really is. While Bell speculates and redefines Hell in his interview with Martin Bashir, he accuses Christians – who take Jesus at face value – as speculating about what happens after death. He stated, “My experience has been a lot of Christians built whole dogmas about what happens when you die, and we have to be very careful we don’t build whole doctrines and dogmas on what is speculation.” To this, Bashir wisely responded, “You’re the one making speculation about the after life.”

Rob Bell’s unscriptural and wild speculation about Hell being a temporary abode is more akin to world religions like Islam, and cults like Mormonism, than it is Christianity!

Those of us who know God do not have to speculate about the after life. We are speculating when we believe God’s faithful testimony.

“And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.” –Hebrews 9:27

The Bible also clearly teaches that those who die with genuine faith in Jesus Christ will be “absent from the body… [and] present with the Lord.” (2 Cor. 5:8, Phil 1:21-23, Hebrews 12:22-23, Revelation 6:9)

Jesus declared that one must be born again to enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3, 5, 7). Jesus also made it clear that those who will not believe will be condemned (John 3:16-21). Jesus further declares that those who refuse to come to Him would die in their sins (John 8:24).

Jesus made it clear that those who reject Him go to Hades upon death (Luke 16:19-31). He further revealed in the book of Revelation that Hades is a temporary holding facility (like a county jail) and that after Christ’s millennial reign the wicked dead will be raised and appear at the great white throne judgment. At that point, they will be judged by their deeds and cast into the lake of fire along with Hades itself (Revelation 20:11-15, 21:8, 22:15). The revelation of Christ reveals that even after being in the lake of fire for over a thousand years, ‘the beast’ and ‘the false prophet’ will still be there (Revelation 20:10).

There is no hint or indication that anyone will receive a second chance in Hades or the lake of fire. Rather, Jesus revealed that there will be no rest, day and night, forever and ever (Revelation 14:9-12).
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not exactly, the Two Witnesses, again, prophecy for 1260 days, which Baha'is turn into 1260 lunar years to get to 1844. After they have prophesied for those 1260 days, they are killed and their bodies lie in the street in the city where their Lord was crucified for 3 1/2 days... which are also converted to 1260 lunar years and start and stop with 621AD and end in 1844. So both the 1260 days and the 3 1/2 days start and end at the same time? Oh and what city was their Lord crucified? The only answer I see a Baha'i can give is a symbolic one. Which doesn't mean much to a non-Baha'i.

I see the Prophecy gives the overall timeline, what happens within that timeline and what will come after.

Imagine the Bible clearly says that a Message will last 1260 years.

How clear can it be that the Bab proclaimed to Muslims in the year 1260 of the Islamic Calendar that He was the one they have all been waiting for and that He was to prepare the way for the Day of God, the "One whom God would make Manifest".

Regards Tony

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
From Bahai theology both the Bab and Bahaullah are return of Christ. Infact when the Bab came, He wrote the Spirit has returned.
I understand that, you would hear the Bahais often say, the Bab is Qaim, or forerunner and Bahaullah is return of Chrsit.
But that is not what and only Bahai Scriptures says.
Bahaullah is also the Qaim, the Mahdi, the Father, Prince of peace, the Lord of Hosts. So, is the Bab, the Qaim, the 12th imam, the Mahdi, the first time Spirit of Chriat returned in this Age.
Okay, but with so little being said about The Bab, I don't see why it is necessary for him to be a manifestation. Did any of his teachings and laws ever go into effect? It sure seems like the only thing he did that was important was to say that Baha'u'llah was coming soon. A lessor prophet could have done that. Now Baha'is have to show prophecies, in all religions, that show that two promised ones are coming... Two Krishnas, two Buddhas etc. Oh, and does Islam say Jesus is coming back or the "Christ" spirit?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I dont think the thieves came out of their graves.
No, I think it said, "saints." If it really happened, there rotting bodies got all new again? I don't think so. I don't think it happened. And only one gospel writer says it happened. To me, he made it up. For you, it is probably literally true. To Baha'is symbolically true.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
I see the Prophecy gives the overall timeline, what happens within that timeline and what will come after.

Imagine the Bible clearly says that a Message will last 1260 years.

How clear can it be that the Bab proclaimed to Muslims in the year 1260 of the Islamic Calendar that He was the one they have all been waiting for and that He was to prepare the way for the Day of God, the "One whom God would make Manifest".

Regards Tony

Regards Tony

That sounds like the Antichrist pretending to be Jesus. Jesus said that many false Christs will arise and deceive many. That is why just because the bibical prophecies might sound like they refer to bahaullah, doesn't mean that they refer to him. They refer to Jesus. The Bible talks about the Antichrist copying God. The Bible talks about false prophets, and the Antichrist copying God.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
No, I think it said, "saints." If it really happened, there rotting bodies got all new again? I don't think so. I don't think it happened. And only one gospel writer says it happened. To me, he made it up. For you, it is probably literally true. To Baha'is symbolically true.

So you dont believe in the belief of the Ressurection of the dead?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
There is a challenge OB, where does the Quran make it clear there will be not more Messengers. That is more clear than the Bible. We have to consider that both the Jews and the Christains both say they have the final Revelation, and all other God given Faiths offer the same.

The "Seal of the Prophets" takes on a new meaning when the explanations given by Baha'u'llah are considered, and no Message is seen as true until a person considers it in their own heart.

Yet still, all faiths await a day when they will be vindicated in their faith, as all faiths given by God have given a promise of a return that will be accepted on a worldly scale.

Baha'u'llah has said, if you wait, for what other day do you wait for, if not this day?

Regards Tony
Hello Tony! :)
How ya goin'?

Thing is, I never did hang my hat on anybody's prophecies, and so any long drawn out details of these .... impress me not at all.

Now I do take interest in some Spiritualists, and some Healers and clairvoyants can be amazing.... but I'll leave you to listen to prophecies. :)
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Hello Tony! :)
How ya goin'?

Thing is, I never did hang my hat on anybody's prophecies, and so any long drawn out details of these .... impress me not at all.

Now I do take interest in some Spiritualists, and some Healers and clairvoyants can be amazing.... but I'll leave you to listen to prophecies. :)
I believe that the prophecies are about Jesus not Bahaullah. He is a replacement Jesus, similar to Santa Claus.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Okay, but with so little being said about The Bab, I don't see why it is necessary for him to be a manifestation. Did any of his teachings and laws ever go into effect? It sure seems like the only thing he did that was important was to say that Baha'u'llah was coming soon. A lessor prophet could have done that. Now Baha'is have to show prophecies, in all religions, that show that two promised ones are coming... Two Krishnas, two Buddhas etc. Oh, and does Islam say Jesus is coming back or the "Christ" spirit?
Yes, there are two main sects in Islam. Sunnis traditions say, before Chrsit returns, Mahdi comes. Thus, the Bab is Mahdi, and Bahaullah is return of Christ.

Shia traditions say, first Mahdi comes, then Imam Hossein returns.
For them, the Bab is Mahdi, and Bahaullah is Imam Hossein returned.
The Bab wrote He is the Mahdi.
Bahaullah wrote are is return of Imam Hossein, as well as Christ.

Different religions have different terms. But all of them really spok of two Manifestations.

The Bab needed to be a Manifestation, because the Laws of Islam was to be abrogated. Only a Manifestation can do this, not a minor Prophet.
Even though the duration of the Babi dispensation was short, yet, to abrogated the previously divinely revealed Law can only be done a Manifestation.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Yes there is. I just checked on some from Daniel. Let's take a look...
Daniel 12:11-12:
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.​
Okay, the starting time should be when the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination set up, right? No, I guess not. Here's the Baha'i interpretation...
Three main issues are addressed: the interpretation of 1,290 days; the interpretation of 1,335 days; and the date of the commencement of the "hundred lunar years", which, as mentioned by Shoghi Effendi in "God Passes By" (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1987), page 151, will precede the consummation of the 1,335 days.

In "Some Answered Questions" (Wilmette: Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1984), pages 43-44, Abdu'l-Bahá interprets the prophecy concerning the 1,290 days in the following terms:

The beginning of this lunar reckoning is from the day of the proclamation of the prophethood of Muhammad in the country of Hijaz; and that was three years after His mission, because in the beginning the prophethood of Muhammad was kept secret, and no one knew it save Khadijah and Ibn Nawfal. After three years it was announced. And Bahá'u'lláh, in the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad, caused His manifestation to be known.

Note that the Master indicates that, in this instance, time is measured by the "lunar" calendar. Since the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad took place ten years prior to the Hegira, i.e., His flight from Mecca to Medina, from which date the Muslim calendar begins, the year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad was the year 1280 of the Hegira, or 1863-64 A.D.
There are references to 1,290 days in "God Passes By", on pages 110 and 151. In these passages, Shoghi Effendi confirms that the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh in Baghdad, which occurred in 1863 (1280 A.H.), represents the fulfilment of the 1,290 days.
So lunar years and not starting with 621AD but starting 10 lunar years earlier? So 1290 lunar years falls on year 1280 of the Islamic calendar? Now let's look at the 1335 day prophecy...

Two Tablets revealed by `Abdu'l-Bahá which are published in "The Passing of `Abdu'l-Bahá" (Haifa: 1922), by Lady Blomfield and Shoghi Effendi, provide interpretations of the 1,335 days referred to by Daniel:

Now concerning the verse in Daniel, the interpretation whereof thou didst ask, namely, "Blessed is he who cometh unto the thousand three hundred and thirty five days". These days must be reckoned as solar and not lunar years. For according to this calculation a century will have elapsed from the dawn of the Sun of Truth, then will the teachings of God be firmly established upon the earth, and the Divine Light shall flood the world from the East even unto the West. Then, on this day, will the faithful rejoice! (p. 31)
O servant of God! The afore mentioned a thousand three hundred and thirty-five years must be reckoned from the day of the flight of His Holiness Muhammad, the Apostle of God, (Hegira) salutations and blessings rest upon Him, at the close of which time the signs of the rise, the glory, the exaltation, the spread of the Word of God throughout the East and the West shall appear. (p. 31)

From these Tablets it appears that:

- The spread of the Faith throughout the world will signal the fulfilment of this prophecy.
- The "days must be reckoned as solar and not lunar years".

- The Tablets suggest that the prophecy is fulfilled by two different dates. The first derives from the centenary of the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh; the second is calculated from 622 A.D. -- hence, 1963 and 1957.

Shoghi Effendi associated Daniel's reference to the 1,335 days and Abdu'l-Bahá's statements about this prophecy with the centenary of the formal assumption of Bahá'u'lláh's prophetic office and the worldwide triumph of the Bahá'í Cause. He stressed that the prophecy refers to occurrences within the Bahá'í community, rather than to events in the outside world, e.g., the establishment of peace. While the Guardian clearly allied the triumph of the Faith with the successful termination of the third Teaching Plan undertaken by the believers, in his letters and those written on his behalf, three specific dates are mentioned as marking the fulfilment of Daniel's prophecy.
2.1 1960 -- A lunar reckoning

Concerning the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh in Baghdad, Shoghi Effendi, in "God Passes By", page 151, wrote:
Daniel's Prophecies Revised February 1996 Page 3
The "hundred lunar years", destined to immediately precede that blissful consummation (1,335 days), announced by Daniel ... had commenced.

One hundred years, by a "lunar reckoning", after the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh coincides with 1960.
2.2 1963 -- A solar reckoning

When the world-embracing Spiritual Crusade was announced in October 1952, Shoghi Effendi linked the completion of this decade-long enterprise with the fulfilment of Daniel's prophecy:

LET THEM AS THEY ENTER IT VOW ONE VOICE ONE HEART ONE SOUL NEVER TURN BACK ENTIRE COURSE FATEFUL DECADE AHEAD UNTIL EACH EVERY ONE WILL HAVE CONTRIBUTED SHARE LAYING ON WORLD-WIDE SCALE AN UNASSAILABLE ADMINISTRATIVE FOUNDATION FOR BAHA'U'LLAH'S CHRIST-PROMISED KINGDOM ON EARTH SWELLING THEREBY CHORUS UNIVERSAL JUBILATION WHEREIN EARTH HEAVEN WILL JOIN AS PROPHESIED DANIEL ECHOED `ABDU'L-BAHA ON THAT DAY WILL FAITHFUL REJOICE WITH EXCEEDING GLADNESS.
("Messages to the Bahá'í World, 1950-1957" (Wilmette:
Bahá'í Publishing Trust, 1971), p. 44)

Thereafter, the fulfilment of Daniel's prophecy concerning the 1,335 days is associated with the end of the Ten Year Crusade. For example, in a letter dated 9 February 1953 on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to a group of Bahá'ís, his secretary wrote:

The purpose of the Conferences1 will be the world-wide propagation of the Faith. They will lay the foundations of the service of the Bahá'ís of the world for the great Ten Year Crusade ahead -- which, God willing, will be consummated in the fulfilment of the prophecies of Daniel, and the achievement of the initial goals set by `Abdu'l-Bahá in the Tablets of the Divine Plan, whereby the world will be flooded with the Glory of the Lord.

And, in a letter dated 11 May 1956 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, we find the following statement:

...when we fulfil the Ten Year Crusade, we will have brought into fulfilment Daniel's great prophecy of "Blessed is he who waits and comes to the 1335 days".
Another amazing "fulfillment" of prophecy. So Daniel, a couple thousand years ago, told of the year the "Ten Year Crusade" would end? Astounding.

The 1335 days prophecy was to be fulfilled in reality at the last, or end of the period Shoghi Effendi and Abdulbaha wrote.
Meaning, even, they gave a few dates, but the 1963, was the very last date.
Now, year 1963, is the year the first Universal House of Justice was elected.
I suggest, the actual fulfillment of the 1335, days in fact was the establishment of the UHJ. However, for a wisdom that can be known now, this was not supposed to be explicitly said by the central figures in their time. Thus, they did not explicitly say, what 1335 days is. But now we know.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Yes, there are two main sects in Islam. Sunnis traditions say, before Chrsit returns, Mahdi comes. Thus, the Bab is Mahdi, and Bahaullah is return of Christ.

Shia traditions say, first Mahdi comes, then Imam Hossein returns.
For them, the Bab is Mahdi, and Bahaullah is Imam Hossein returned.
The Bab wrote He is the Mahdi.
Bahaullah wrote are is return of Imam Hossein, as well as Christ.

Different religions have different terms. But all of them really spok of two Manifestations.

The Bab needed to be a Manifestation, because the Laws of Islam was to be abrogated. Only a Manifestation can do this, not a minor Prophet.
Even though the duration of the Babi dispensation was short, yet, to abrogated the previously divinely revealed Law can only be done a Manifestation.
The Madhi is the Antichrist. Islam teaches that the Christian Jesus is the Antichrist.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Yes, lots of tricky manipulation of numbers. A mark that is placed on a person so they can buy and sell becomes a date? But that date is said to be a prophecy for when the Umayyads take power. But in another prophecy about the beasts and dragons they are also made to be about the Umayyads and also the Abbasids, but this time the start is pushed back to 621AD? Why? That's not when they gained power? It is only so Baha'is can say the 1260 days are 1260 lunar years that end in 1844. But, was 1844 the return of The Christ? The Messiah? No, it was the year his forerunner came. The Bible is a gold mine for things that can be made into prophecies.
But Bahais did not come up with the number matching, and prophecy matching.
These are explained by Bahaullah, in principle and expended on later by Abdulbaha and Shoghi Effendi.

So, one should think, how did Abdulbaha come up with these interpretations.
When did Abdulbaha was sitting, and thinking about to match all these with the Bahai faith in various ways?
There should be some evidence in history about this. Someone must have seen Abdulbaha, sitting and going through the Bible page by page, thinking, using His imagination how He can interpret these to fit with Bahaullah, and the Bab. Dont you think so?
 
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