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Featured Biblical prophecies and statements. Are they about Jesus Christ or Bahaullah?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by firedragon, Nov 22, 2020.

  1. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Taking a scriptural approach to the Bahai theology which a new theology to me I have come to understand that the Bahai's believe in certain things which I would like to clarify and get some insights from everyone who could participate. This concerns Christians, Jews, Bahai's and anyone who follows these scripture.

    Claim 1: Son of man referred in the third person is referring to Bahaullah, not Jesus. For example, the second coming of Jesus Christians believe prophecies and spoken of in the book of revelations where both Son of Man and Word of God are referred to (Revelations 19:11 onwards).

    It was said that since in other places of the New Testament like the prophecy of the coming of the Son of Man on the clouds, since it is said in the third person and Jesus speaks there, it cannot refer to himself. If Jesus referred to himself, he would say "would be coming", not "the son of man will come" in the third party tense.

    Now if one examines the New Testament, the son of man is predominantly referred to in the third party. The Son of Man is drinking, and eating, a glutton, and a frind of the tax collectors, the Son of Man is the lord of the Sabbath, etc etc. Predominantly in the third party tense.

    Also, it is in the present tense. Thus I would like a clarification of this.

    Claim 2: Tanakh prophecies about Jesus are referred to Bahaullah. Is it possible to clearly state the prophecies from the Tanakh and why they refer to Bahaullah?

    Thank you.
     
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  2. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Jesus coming on the clouds is also referenced in the book of Daniel. Daniel 7:13 In my vision in the night I continued to watch, and I saw One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into His presence. The expression Son of Man is found in the Old Testament. The Old Testament also talks about the Messiah being God. The Messiah Would Be the Son of Man

     
  3. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    True. Does that refer to Bahaullah?

    The Bahais claim this son of man who is supposed to come is Bahaullah. Thats my question.
     
  4. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    Now this one is a can of worms and at the same time a very exciting subject.

    I see it is very clear that Jesus as Christ offered He had much more to say unto us, which did not happen 2000 years ago.

    Maybe if we look at the origin of Son of Man, this from wiki.

    "... The Hebrew expression "son of man" (בן–אדם, ben-'adam) appears 107 times in the Hebrew Bible, the majority (93 times) in the Book of Ezekiel.[1] It is used in three main ways: as a form of address (Ezekiel); to contrast the lowly status of humanity against the permanence and exalted dignity of God and the angels (Numbers 23:19, Psalm 8:4); and as a future
    eschatological figure whose coming will signal the end of history and the time of God's judgement ( Daniel 7:13-14).

    Maybe that can help?

    Regards Tony
     
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  5. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    I see Daniel 7:13 in a different light, it says this;
    "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him."

    To me that talks of the Bab, who in every aspect of life and Message was like Jesus the Christ the Son. The Ancient of Days in that passage to me refers toBaha'u'llah, as that is one of the titles of Baha'u'llah, which there are many.

    Regards Tony
     
  6. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    The phrase ‘Son of Man’ has a number of meanings and is used in different ways throughout the Christian Bible. It is certainly used as a Messianic Title, for example in Matthew 24, where Jesus speaks of future events and signs that will accompany His Return.

    The Return of Christ is a central part of Christian eschatology. Bahá’u’lláh alludes to key verses in Matthew 24 in His work the Kitab-I-Iqan. An understanding of this book will make clear that references to a future Messiah or Christ or ‘Son of Man’ could refer to Muhammad, the Bab or Himself.

    Bahá’u’lláh tends not to explicitly refer to Himself fulfilling these prophecies in the Kitab-i-Iqan as He had not yet openly proclaimed Himself to be the Manifestation of God for this day. Instead He is critical of Islamic clerics for failing to explain to the Christians how Muhammad fulfilled key passages in the Gospels. The book is addressed to one of the Uncles of the Bab to answer his questions about who is Nephew was from an Islamic perspective.

    The point is that the physical Jesus won’t or can’t Return, instead it is the Christ, Messiah or ‘Son of Man’.

    The Son of Man can refer to Jesus in some passages, to a future Christ in others. Some verses are specific to a particular Christ, others may be more generic and applicable to any Christ.

    Some verses from the Tanakh similarity could refer to Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab or Bahá’u’lláh or not really be Messianic at all. One needs to consider each verse on a case by case basis. Isaiah is one of the most important books in regards Jewish eschatology. Authoritative Bahá’i Writings reference a number of other key books such as Daniel and Ezekiel.

    Jewish and Christian eschatology is a huge area. Bahá’is would see some verses in the Tanakh and NT as referring specifically to Bahá’u’lláh. Christians and Jews would disagree of course.
     
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  7. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Hmm. Thats interesting. Your perspective is a little different from what I heard, but I accept your response. I am no scholar of the Bahai faith so I do not know all the Bahai writings. And I have not read the Kitab I iqan other than maybe tad. So your information about what it says is more than welcome.

    Is there a possibility for you to state the prophecies in the Tanakh that is cited? In Kithab I iqan or/and elsewhere? If I find it unreasonable of course I would state it, but I am interested in knowing. I ask this because I was not aware that prophecies in the Tanakh other than the day to year calculations were applied for Bahaullah.

    Thanks for your response.
     
  8. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    I suppose, Bible has some prophecies for Mohammad and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Ahmadiyya Islam also. So it is basically, "whom are you asking?"
    No problem about that. You can always mold prophecies in your own way. For example, they could refer to WWI as well as WWII or WWIII. Take for example prophecies by Nostradamus.
     
  9. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    So that's a general dismissal of all so called "prophecies" right?
     
  10. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    That is right, Firedragon. In theist Hinduism, Lord Brahma decides future and no one else knows what it is.
    They said "Devo na jānāti, kuto manushyah?" (Even the Gods do not know, what to talk of humans?).
     
  11. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Absolutely relevant to this thread. You are doing so great. Maybe next it will weird al and Les Misarables. Thank you very much.
     
  12. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    There are places in the gospels where Jesus identifies Himself as the Son of Man,,,,,,,,,,,,even in the 3rd person.
    Luke 19:22“The Son of Man must suffer many things, He said. “He must be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
    The title Son of Man is Jesus favourite title for Himself and seems to refer to Himself as being a man and to Daniel's use of it specifically in Daniel 7:13,14.
    Dan 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
    In the New Testament it is Jesus who receives the Kingship over the Kingdom that will last forever, the Kingdom of God, the throne of David. (see for example Luke 1:32,33)
    It seems clear in the prophecy you pointed out in Rev 19:11 onwards that it is referring to Jesus as the one coming back to judge and rule.
    In Rev 22:20,21 it is Jesus who is coming back and Jesus even said He would come back. (John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. )
    In the below verse and other places it is clear that it is Jesus who will return.
    Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
    10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
    Baha'is seem so caught up in their belief in Baha'u'llah that they do not realise that they need to deny the Bible in order to justify Baha'u'llah and what he has told them.
    Some of these New Testament verses are what Christians can use to make sure they are not deceived by false Christs claiming to be the return of Christ. To believe that Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ a Baha'i has to let the claimant to the title of "returned Christ" tell them that these verses, the verses that safeguard Christians against false Christs, do not mean what they say. In a cynical way I see it as a "wink, wink, trust me, I'm the return of Christ,,,,,,,,,,,,would I lie to you?" I just can't understand how a Christian can be hoodwinked by this.
    That said, I don't want to judge Baha'u'llah, who was clearly deceived.
    Interestingly Baha'i does not believe in the existence of Satan, the deceiver, and so Baha'u'llah cannot have been deceived by Satan.

    I can state some prophecies but cannot say why they refer to Baha'u'llah since many of them are said and shown in the New Testament to be about Jesus.
    eg Isa 9:6-7 speaking about the one who will sit on the throne of David forever (see Luke 1:32,33), Isa 53 concerning the suffering, death and resurrection of Jesus for our sins, Isa 11 concerning the root of Jesse.
     
  13. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    I take a more universal perspective of prophesy of the different religions and spiritual perspectives realizing that from the different perspectives of individual religions that they reject the prophetic beliefs of other religions. Yes, there is a high degree of subjectivity in the interpretation of prophecy, and religions of the past tend to believe in prophecy from their perspective only. Of course, the Christians will reject the belief in the fulfilment of prophecies by Islam, and the Baha'i Faith, but nonetheless the Jews reject all of the above, and the Tanakh in Hebrew is their Holy books. The problem is whether there is a universal perspective of an evolving progressive Revelation revealed in prophesies or not. I do not picky parse the interpretation of prophesies from any one perspective including those of the Baha'i Faith, but believe in a universal God of progressive Revelation understanding that the different religions concerning prophecy and th every human understanding of God are grounded in their ancient tribal perspective of their culture and remain so today.

    If God exists it becomes a problematic contradiction that God would have only one religion in one region that receives his Revelation and also offers Salvation only to those believers.
     
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  14. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Interesting Tony.
    I just have a few questions if that's okay with you.
    1) Whom does Bahais say are the thousand thousands that kept ministering to him, and ten thousand times ten thousand that stood before him - verse 10.
    2) Do Bahais also interpret the four beast - verses 1-8 - to mean something related to the period of the Bab?
    3) How do Bahais go about interpreting scripture... Do they use Bahaullah's writings to do so, or do they use the same Bible that makes the statements? If the latter, which scripture would you use to make an application regarding verse 10?
     
  15. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Here is a list of Prophecies related to Bahaullah in Jwish Scriptures as per Bahai Writings:


    To Him Isaiah, the greatest of the Jewish prophets, had alluded as the “Glory of the Lord,” the “Everlasting Father,” the “Prince of Peace,” the “Wonderful,” the “Counsellor,” the “Rod come forth out of the stem of Jesse” and the “Branch grown out of His roots,” Who “shall be established upon the throne of David,” Who “will come with strong hand,” Who “shall judge among the nations,” Who “shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips slay the wicked,” and Who “shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” Of Him David had sung in his Psalms, acclaiming Him as the “Lord of Hosts” and the “King of Glory.” To Him Haggai had referred as the “Desire of all nations,” and Zachariah as the “Branch” Who “shall grow up out of His place,” and “shall build the Temple of the Lord.” Ezekiel had extolled Him as the “Lord” Who “shall be king over all the earth,” while to His day Joel and Zephaniah had both referred as the “day of Jehovah,” the latter describing it as “a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, a day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.” His Day Ezekiel and Daniel had, moreover, both acclaimed as the “day of the Lord,” and Malachi described as “the great and dreadful day of the Lord” when “the Sun of Righteousness” will “arise, with healing in His wings,” whilst Daniel had pronounced His advent as signalizing the end of the “abomination that maketh desolate.”


    - God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi
     
    #15 InvestigateTruth, Nov 23, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2020
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  16. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Thanks for that.

    Do you have specific references of the books and passages referred by Effendi? I can figure out some of them out I think but you may know better. So if you do please give some information.
     
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  17. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    I don't have. But I think, if you look at the Book, God Passes By, it probably have some references, so, you can see where in Bible they are from. Also, see, another Book, "Some Answered Questions" by Abdulbaha. I think, you can find references for some of them in there. But I dont have a list of references myself
     
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  18. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Okay I shall do that. I was just being lazy. I have been having both these books ever since I opened one thread long long ago about understanding the Bahai faith but have not yet go to reading them properly.

    But the best is to read them. You are right.
     
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  19. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    The Kitab-i-Iqan makes reference to the Gospels, particularly a few verses in the Olivet discourse.

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    Matthew 24:29-31

    Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41

    In this work Bahá’u’lláh makes no specific references to verses in the Tanakh. If you check the references at the bottom of the text you will appreciate the overwhelming scriptural references are to the Quran. The work is unusual for its time in that it does reference the Gospels and what it has to say about them.

    The next key document for any student of the Baha’i writings wanting to learn about what is said in regards biblical prophecy is ‘Some Answered Questions’ which is a transcript of a series of table talks given to Western Baha’is in Akka by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá during the early twentieth century. It is divided into five sections, the second being devoted to Christian topics.

    Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

    @InvestigateTruth has referenced key passages in Shoghi Effendi’s ‘God passes by’ above.

    Shoghi Effendi emphasised the importance of the Kitab-I-Iqan and Some Answered Questions for anyone serious about becoming acquainted with the Baha’i Faith.
     
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  20. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Do baha'i people believe in the Bible or the Tanakh?
     
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