Biblical prophecies and statements. Are they about Jesus Christ or Bahaullah?

[firedragon]

Arrogance in our own learning and opinions have always been our downfall. If you read history and of those that reject the Messengers, the statement that the Messenger had no Clue about previous scriptures jumps ou every time.

So asking a question about "why did you stop with revelations when the early bible has more books after that" is arrogance. A rhetorical answer is your answer?

Great. Thank you very much.

Have a great day.

 

[firedragon]

666 to me is a fascinating number.

Just because one number is fascinating to you does not answer the question I asked brother. I hope you understand that.

Anyway I dont think you are prepared to answer questions. Thats why you react like this, either just saying I am arrogant, or saying "this is my faith", or something to that nature. Thats fine, I understand your faith, and I think there is nothing more to discuss.

Thanks.

 

[Skywalker]

There is a challenge OB, where does the Quran make it clear there will be not more Messengers. That is more clear than the Bible. We have to consider that both the Jews and the Christains both say they have the final Revelation, and all other God given Faiths offer the same.

The "Seal of the Prophets" takes on a new meaning when the explanations given by Baha'u'llah are considered, and no Message is seen as true until a person considers it in their own heart.

Yet still, all faiths await a day when they will be vindicated in their faith, as all faiths given by God have given a promise of a return that will be accepted on a worldly scale.

Baha'u'llah has said, if you wait, for what other day do you wait for, if not this day?

Regards Tony

The Bible says not to add or subtract to God's word. How can you believe in both the Quran and the Bible when the Bible says not to add to God's Word? What is unclear about the Bible? I believe Christianity is the final revelation of Judaism. Its a gentile expression of New Covenant Judaism. Mary was an almah, a young maiden, who conceived.

That sounds like the one world religion and the New World Order.

 

[Skywalker]

So there wasn't a child that fulfilled being the sign for King Ahaz? I don't think so, because that would make the rest of Isaiah 7 meaningless. Christians only use Isaiah 7:14. But, if there was, then Christians have to explain why one child wasn't born of a virgin but 700 years later there was.

The verse needs to be taken in full context.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Did Ali come before Muhammad in a similar way that The Bab came before Baha'u'llah and John came before Jesus? But unlike them, Ali becomes the leader after Muhammad?

I do not know.

I did find this

"... While still in his teens, Muhammad accompanied his uncle on trading journeys to Syria, gaining experience in commercial trade, which was the only career open to him as an orphan. Islamic tradition states that when Muhammad was either nine or twelve, while accompanying a caravan to Syria he met a Christian monk or hermit named Bahira, who is said to have foreseen Muhammed’s career as a prophet of God. Little is known of Muhammad during his later youth; available information is fragmented, and it is difficult to separate history from legend. It is known that he became a merchant and “was involved in trade between the Indian ocean and the Mediterranean Sea.” Due to his upright character during this time, he acquired the nickname “al-Amin,” meaning “faithful, trustworthy,” and “al-Sadiq,” meaning “truthful.” Muhammad and the Rise of Islam | Boundless World History

So a Christian Monk may have been the Elijah?

Ali should have been the One all turned to after the passing of Muhammad. When those who wanted power said Ali was too young, they took the Faith of Muhammad in the direction they wanted and not the direction according to Muhammad's Covenant.

That is why in Revelation we read that Islam became a dead body laying in the street for 1260 years.

All this is available to study. I wonder why people do not?

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

The Bible says not to add or subtract to God's word.

Then why do you subtract the epistle of Barnabas from the Bible since it was there in the earliest one?

 

[Skywalker]

All that is about the Baha'i beliefs. They have things they say prophecies of when The Messiah will come, but they make 1844 the big day. That is not when Baha'u'llah declared that he was the guy. That was when his forerunner, The Bab, declared. But, for the Baha'is, The Bab is more than a "forerunner" like John the Baptist... he is made into a "manifestation" himself. So now the Baha'is say that there are prophecies about a "twin" manifestation coming. One of those prophecies is the "Three Woes" from Revelation. The first, Muhammad, happens, then the second one and it says the third Woe, or to them a manifestation, is coming quickly.

It's a nice religion and it has a way to make all people and all religions "one". But they just have too many weird things they call "fulfilled" prophecy that just don't work for me. Then, with Christianity, the big problem is nobody but Christians are right. And then, it is only some Christians... the ones that have the true doctrines and beliefs. All the rest are going to hell. Might be true, but I hope not.

Do you think it contradicts itself?

The idea of making all religions one sounds like the New World Order and the Antichrist. I believe the Antichrist will be viewed as the Messiah by the Jews, Muslims, and Bahai. What you said about wierd things they call prophecies, reminds me of this article. Muhammad's False Prophecies What are the similarities between Mormonism and Islam? | CARM.org

I believe in trusting God, not on what Christians say. God puts people in our lives to help us out, but we cant take what the pastor says to the most minute detail.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes, lots of tricky manipulation of numbers. A mark that is placed on a person so they can buy and sell becomes a date? But that date is said to be a prophecy for when the Umayyads take power. But in another prophecy about the beasts and dragons they are also made to be about the Umayyads and also the Abbasids, but this time the start is pushed back to 621AD? Why? That's not when they gained power? It is only so Baha'is can say the 1260 days are 1260 lunar years that end in 1844. But, was 1844 the return of The Christ? The Messiah? No, it was the year his forerunner came. The Bible is a gold mine for things that can be made into prophecies.

From Bahai theology both the Bab and Bahaullah are return of Christ. Infact when the Bab came, He wrote the Spirit has returned.
I understand that, you would hear the Bahais often say, the Bab is Qaim, or forerunner and Bahaullah is return of Chrsit.
But that is not what and only Bahai Scriptures says.
Bahaullah is also the Qaim, the Mahdi, the Father, Prince of peace, the Lord of Hosts. So, is the Bab, the Qaim, the 12th imam, the Mahdi, the first time Spirit of Chriat returned in this Age.

 

[firedragon]

I do not know.

I did find this

"... While still in his teens, Muhammad accompanied his uncle on trading journeys to Syria, gaining experience in commercial trade, which was the only career open to him as an orphan. Islamic tradition states that when Muhammad was either nine or twelve, while accompanying a caravan to Syria he met a Christian monk or hermit named Bahira, who is said to have foreseen Muhammed’s career as a prophet of God. Little is known of Muhammad during his later youth; available information is fragmented, and it is difficult to separate history from legend. It is known that he became a merchant and “was involved in trade between the Indian ocean and the Mediterranean Sea.” Due to his upright character during this time, he acquired the nickname “al-Amin,” meaning “faithful, trustworthy,” and “al-Sadiq,” meaning “truthful.” Muhammad and the Rise of Islam | Boundless World History

So a Christian Monk may have been the Elijah?

Ali should have been the One all turned to after the passing of Muhammad. When those who wanted power said Ali was too young, they took the Faith of Muhammad in the direction they wanted and not the direction according to Muhammad's Covenant.

That is why in Revelation we read that Islam became a dead body laying in the street for 1260 years.

All this is available to study. I wonder why people do not?

Regards Tony

Thats a bias, Shiii narrative. But there is a host of another side that you seem to not have studied. One could say "wonder why".

This is why Tony, one should not make derogatory statements like that by default. If you pretend to know something, and you are being dishonest, then I have a right to point that out, and of course, vice versa. But it is not valid to question why people dont study the ones that are only relevant to you. So others may ask the same question from you.

This seems like a concept brought up in the sectarian/political strife and has delved in it.

Ali is after Muhammed, and should have beens are all after Muhammed, after Quran was revealed, and has nothing to do with theology but politics and power. Ali should have been, doesnt mean anything. It only means something to the Sunni/SHii sectarian strife.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, in my opinion Bahaullah didnt know about the earliest Bible canons because he didnt have access to them. Thats that. Nevertheless I admit that the only Bahai scripture I have read properly is the Kithab al Akdas. Only a few days ago I started reading the Kithab I iqan and a few more parallel. So I dont claim to know the scripture.

Thanks for engaging Tony. Have a great day.

All the best Firedragon.

If I could read Arabic and Persian, I could dive deeper.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

Do you think it contradicts itself?

The idea of making all religions one sounds like the New World Order and the Antichrist. I believe the Antichrist will be viewed as the Messiah by the Jews, Muslims, and Bahai. What you said about wierd things they call prophecies, reminds me of this article. Muhammad's False Prophecies What are the similarities between Mormonism and Islam? | CARM.org

I believe in trusting God, not on what Christians say. God puts people in our lives to help us out, but we cant take what the pastor says to the most minute detail.

So you are really promoting this website arent you brother. Good going.

 

[Skywalker]

Then why do you subtract the epistle of Barnabas from the Bible since it was there in the earliest one?

That book wasn't written by the apostles or the major or minor prophets of the Bible. It was never part of the Bible to begin with.

 

[Skywalker]

Well the main one being the story of the people coming out of their graves. That would truly be scary and would have been noticed by a lot of Romans and Jews. Or, one gospel writer threw it in there to make the story more powerful. Baha'is explain them away by saying they were symbolic. I explain them away by saying the writers made them up. To you, all these things really happened. But it gets tougher and tougher, the further back we go, to keep believing everything said in the Bible stories really happened. Like the Sun stopping in the sky or Moses' cane turning into a snake.

So kind of like the Baha'i explanation... that the stories aren't literally true but were written to show some spiritual truth or lesson or the power of God. If that is true, and I don't know, you might be right, but for me... I think it is religious myth. The Baha'is, I don't believe, go that far. They, somehow, make the Bible true and false at the same time... depending on what they are trying to prove.

I dont think the thieves came out of their graves.

 

[Skywalker]

So you are really promoting this website arent you brother. Good going.

I was quoting information having to do with the prophecies of Mohammad. The other person was talking about why he didn't agree with Islam.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So asking a question about "why did you stop with revelations when the early bible has more books after that" is arrogance. A rhetorical answer is your answer?

Great. Thank you very much.

Have a great day.

I apologise, my reading and use of English again falls short.

I was thinking of my own journey and how much I have had to reconsider.

Yet I still have so many obstacles in things that I had previously learnt that prevent me seeing other paths, other thoughts, still so arrogant.

So let me put it another way.

If you do find that Baha'u'llah gave a Message from God, how would you then weigh comments made about that Message, as not having sufficient foundations? Example from what you offered;

"Well, in my opinion Bahaullah didnt know about the earliest Bible canons because he didnt have access to them."

It is OK to have that opinion, but if you do then cone to see that Baha'u'llah gave a Message from God, can you then see the demise we face in our heart. We then have to live with our....... Well is not the word Arrogance?

Regards Tony

 

[Skywalker]

From Bahai theology both the Bab and Bahaullah are return of Christ. Infact when the Bab came, He wrote the Spirit has returned.
I understand that, you would hear the Bahais often say, the Bab is Qaim, or forerunner and Bahaullah is return of Chrsit.
But that is not what and only Bahai Scriptures says.
Bahaullah is also the Qaim, the Mahdi, the Father, Prince of peace, the Lord of Hosts. So, is the Bab, the Qaim, the 12th imam, the Mahdi, the first time Spirit of Chriat returned in this Age.

John the Baptist was the forerunner of Jesus. Bahaullah cant both be Jesus and the Madhi because the Madhi is the Antichrist. Truth and lies are often mixed. Jesus is the Lord of Hosts and the Everlasting Father and the Prince of Peace.

 

[Skywalker]

Well the main one being the story of the people coming out of their graves. That would truly be scary and would have been noticed by a lot of Romans and Jews. Or, one gospel writer threw it in there to make the story more powerful. Baha'is explain them away by saying they were symbolic. I explain them away by saying the writers made them up. To you, all these things really happened. But it gets tougher and tougher, the further back we go, to keep believing everything said in the Bible stories really happened. Like the Sun stopping in the sky or Moses' cane turning into a snake.

So kind of like the Baha'i explanation... that the stories aren't literally true but were written to show some spiritual truth or lesson or the power of God. If that is true, and I don't know, you might be right, but for me... I think it is religious myth. The Baha'is, I don't believe, go that far. They, somehow, make the Bible true and false at the same time... depending on what they are trying to prove.

The gnostic gospels have absurd teachings, like a giant face appearing out of the tomb and reaching the sky. The Bible doesn't have anything like that.

 

[Skywalker]

I apologise, my reading and use of English again falls short.

I was thinking of my own journey and how much I have had to reconsider.

Yet I still have so many obstacles in things that I had previously learnt that prevent me seeing other paths, other thoughts, still so arrogant.

So let me put it another way.

If you do find that Baha'u'llah gave a Message from God, how would you then weigh comments made about that Message, as not having sufficient foundations? Example from what you offered;

"Well, in my opinion Bahaullah didnt know about the earliest Bible canons because he didnt have access to them."

It is OK to have that opinion, but if you do then cone to see that Baha'u'llah gave a Message from God, can you then see the demise we face in our heart. We then have to live with our....... Well is not the word Arrogance?

Regards Tony

I dont think Baha'u'llah gave Messages from God. The prophecy of the Messiah in 1844 was a false prophecy.

 

[firedragon]

I was quoting information having to do with the prophecies of Mohammad. The other person was talking about why he didn't agree with Islam.

Brother. No one has to agree with Islam. It’s irrelevant to this thread.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Bible says not to add or subtract to God's word. How can you believe in both the Quran and the Bible when the Bible says not to add to God's Word?

Because they are both God's Word. We have not added to them, God gave them to us.

An example of Adding is to make a doctrine called the Trinity which is not mentioned in the Bible. Man has gather verses and made a Doctrine that has become part of the Word.

Muhammad gave a Message from God, God's Word and God said in the 600's

"They disbelieved who say: Allah is one of three (in a Trinity): for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous chastisement will befall the disbelievers among them." [Qur'ân: 5:73]

The Trinity blinded Christians from Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, what greater chastisement that to reject what you pray for God to hasten?

Regards Tony