Why did God create mortal bodies?

[chinu]

I do not know HOW God helps but IF God helps, He does so through people, but since I do not see God or talk to God but rather to those people, I give credit to those people and not to God.

Besides, I do not want to give any credit to God because I do not like Him right now.

No problem

 

[Trailblazer]

Hope you will recover son from your depression @Trailblazer.
Today I think I can not answer fully to your OP but the title of it I can give you an answer to, and I hope that's ok.

Why did God make us live in a physical body? To be able to repay our karmic debt is the very short answer. Because without a physical body we would not be able to feel pain, sorrow, anger, greed, jealousy and so on. And I do not speak of only the human body, all form of life on this planet feel suffering. Life is suffering as Buddhists would say.

So to me it means that at some point in the past, we as spiritual beings did something that lead us to fall one level of wisdom, or morality and so on, until we become so dense with karma that our only option was to be born in to the physical realm of life.

So no it is not God fault we are here, it is not Gods fault we can not get out of it.
Those things lay fully on our self, and the path out of this realm is to cultivate our mind and body to become less and less dense so we can raise in wisdom level again.

Sorry that this does not sound as a helping hand @Trailblazer but I realized that by not beginning with our self, we can not better our life.
I know you are a lot alone and mostly only see your husband, may it be that the seclution has made you your own enemy in seeing what is needed to be done in your life?
I remember when I was living a secluded lifestyle, I burned the candle from both sides, and I could not see that I become my own enemy.
I understand that the pandemic make it impossible to get out to meet people now, but it will not last to long.

But as I said yesterday, you are the one who know what you need in your life, and sometimes we need others the our self to blame for our suffering, God know that, but God iisnt the cause of your suffering, the past is.

It is late here and I have not had any meals today and I have to eat dinner, so I will answer in brief and maybe in more detail tomorrow.

In short., I do not believe in or past lives so I do not think that humans deserve to pay any karmic debt. According to Baha'i beliefs the human soul comes into being at the moment of conception and then it begins its journey through the material world, and then when we die the soul passes to the spiritual world and continues on its journey which is eternal. The reason we have to go through this life, including the suffering, is to grow spiritually so we will be prepared for our life in the spiritual world. This mortal life is just a very small part of our total existence. This book explains the purpose of life in this world

https://www.amazon.com/Purpose-Physical-Reality-John-Hatcher/dp/1931847231

The Purpose of Physical Reality

"Why do spiritual beings--human souls--begin their lives in the physical world? According to well-known Baha'i author, scholar, and educator John Hatcher, the world is a classroom designed by God to instigate and nurture mental and spiritual growth. The Purpose of Physical Reality examines the components of this classroom to show how everyday experience leads to spiritual insight. Viewing life in this way, we can learn to appreciate the overall justice of God's plan and the subtle interplay between human free will and divine assistance in unleashing human potential. The idea of physical reality as a divine teaching device not only prepares us for further progress in the life beyond, it also provides practical advice about how to attain spiritual and intellectual understanding while we are living on earth."

 

[Deeje]

I do not like the reality of death.

Who does? If death was a natural event, we would not mourn. If it was the release of the inner spirit to go somewhere better, why should we grieve? Shouldn't that make us happy for them? But if the dead are alive somewhere looking down on the mess we are making of our lives here, how could that be a better life for them?

King Solomon lamented that humans and animals have the same end of life (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)....but only us humans can contemplate our own death or the death of loved ones, including our beloved pets. Animals have a "flight or fight" response" instinctively, but they can't really contemplate that any action may end in their death.

Animals may respond to death in their close companions in a variety of ways, but they have no way of imagining it before it happens...only we can do that.....the question is why?
If God designed every other creature not to fear death...then why would he not also do that for us? Isn't that ignorance, a blessing?

I also do not like the reality of the physical world. I never really have liked the material world, except for nature and animals.

That is because we were meant to enjoy our material existence forever with nature and the animals....but not in the state its in now. God never planned this life for us...that is why it feels so wrong....why death feels so wrong and why bad human behavior causes us pain and heartache. We would never choose this poor excuse for a life....nor was it ever God's intention to give us this life.

You are right, fighting against reality only makes matters worse.
As for the reality of God, nobody can really know that so when religious people pin all these attributes on God and expect me to also believe what they do, and I don't, it only makes me feel worse, because I feel like a bad person.

Coming to terms with what the Bible explains as the reason for our plight, we can contemplate a big picture that actually makes sense. (or at least it does for me)

We lost the life we were meant to have because free will was abused right at the beginning. The first humans were set up for failure, not by God, but by an angel who wanted to make a god of himself. By separating the humans from their Creator he could claim them as his own. The problem was, that death was the result of their disobedience, so rather than inherit beings that would live forever on earth as God intended, he would eventually lose all of them in death.....so he constantly needed to make recruits.....his full time occupation has always been steering humans away from God by introducing all manner of false worship to them. This satisfies the spiritual nature in them, whist serving the interests of the wrong god. The Bible makes no sense without the devil. His actions in Genesis are undone in Revelation.....what was lost in Eden is given back to humankind'...it was the whole reason why Jesus came as redeemer.

The Creator could have just snuffed out the rebels there and then, but the lessons in learning to drive free will, needed to be learned by all, so he used the rebellion to teach all of us what living in a world without him actually means in real terms. We are living in the world that man created without God's intervention or protection......and we've made a right mess of everything.

Jesus taught us to pray for the solution.....(Matthew 6:9-10) Only with the coming of God's Kingdom, can his "will be done on earth as it is in heaven". It is not 'coming' by any actions of man. (Daniel 2:44) This rulership will replace all failed human rulership and re-establish God's rule over mankind that was lost in Eden.

When I have to deal with what I perceive as unfairness in addition to my grief and loss it just compounds my grief and depression, makes it doubly worse.

We are created in God's image...not meaning that we look like God, but that we possess his moral attributes. Justice is one of them, so injustice never sits well with us....even very young children have a good sense of what's fair.

Our sense of injustice is only compounded when we blame God for our feelings....the one person we feel should never have let this happen. We get angry about that injustice, but its only a perception....God is not to blame because this object lesson will test out humanity and reveal who are really worthy of the life that is to come under the rule of God's Kingdom. Free will can create rebels who have no place in "the new earth", (2 Peter 3:13) where God's rulership in the hands of his Christ, will finally bring peace and security to mankind.

So God is vetting future citizens by allowing us all to be caught in the act of being ourselves. By our own choices we are telling God that we either qualify for life there...or we don't.

I do not think I will be able to see beauty in death, but I can see the beauty in the cats I still have left and if I focus on them I can at least feel I am doing something worthwhile and I can keep busy..

Pets are precious and meant to be our loyal companions even when every other human has let us down. It tears us apart to lose the ones we love, no matter if they are of the animal or human kind....death was never meant to be a part of our lives and in the future, when God's Kingdom rules this earth, our enemy death will be eliminated. (Revelation 21:2-4)

That is how I see the Bible's message....rather than dread the future...I am looking forward to it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Who does? If death was a natural event, we would not mourn. If it was the release of the inner spirit to go somewhere better, why should we grieve? Shouldn't that make us happy for them?

According to Baha'u'llah we should not grieve:

32: O SON OF THE SUPREME! I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom? The Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah

But people grieve because they do not have enough faith that they and their loved ones are in a better place. In addition to that we are not told what the afterlife will be like and people tend to fear the unknown.

That is because we were meant to enjoy our material existence forever with nature and the animals....but not in the state its in now. God never planned this life for us...that is why it feels so wrong....why death feels so wrong and why bad human behavior causes us pain and heartache. We would never choose this poor excuse for a life....nor was it ever God's intention to give us this life.

I do not believe that we were ever meant to live on earth in physical bodies forever. That would not even be possible because if nobody ever died, nobody could ever be born because new births would soon lead to overpopulation. Below is what Baha'u'llah had to say about the mortal world compared to the spiritual world:

39: O OFFSPRING OF DUST! Be not content with the ease of a passing day, and deprive not thyself of everlasting rest. Barter not the garden of eternal delight for the dust-heap of a mortal world. Up from thy prison ascend unto the glorious meads above, and from thy mortal cage wing thy flight unto the paradise of the Placeless. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 36

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I am going to lay my cards right on the table. I am really angry at God because He created humans and animals with mortal bodies such that they will die. Why did God have to create humans and animals this way?

Sister, I hear the agony in your heart. I don't think I can stop your hurting. But I will pray for you, and answer your quesiton as best I can.

Plants and single celled organisms die too. Everything alive dies. Even non-living things like stars and galaxies die. Someday the universe itself will burn out and dye a cold, cold death. So the question is really, why did god create death?

I don't have God here next to me to ask, but this is what goes through my mind as I read your post.

Which is more pleasurable to look at: a photograph? or a home movie? Home movies are far more ineresting because they show how things happen over time, how things change around on the screen. A home movie isn't static.

I"m gonna get real anthropomorphic here, but maybe God just doesn't want to b bored? If tings stayed teh same, if no one ever died, Go would be looking at the same photograph of the universe for all eternity.

Here's my idea: we have death because we have birth. Life constantly ebbs and flows in a constant state of RENEWAL. Look at the universe at any two moments, and you'll never see the same thing. We get to see al those precious moments where a child is miraculously born, takes their first stseps, begins to talk, starts school, has their first kiss, marries and begins their own family, and of course becomes grandparents if they are lucky.

Probably the most beautiful and wondrous things on the earth have to do with procreation. Flowers for example. What would the world be like without flowers?

In a word, the birth to death cycle is why we see those silly caterpillers become dormant pupae, out of which emerge the most beautiful butterfies.

These things alone I think would be enough. But I'm not done yet.

The fact that our lives are finite gives greater meaning and value to the things that we do. Further, the fact that we won't always be here is what gives us the zing to do those things in the first place.

How did I come to this idea? I tried to imagine a more detailed heaven, someplace I would be happy for an eternity. Each time I tried in this, I ended up with a heaven that bored me, that would eventually turn into a living hell. No challenge? No personal growth? Just... this is the picture of things for all the rest of time? Once I struggled to imagine details, I realized what a farce the live forever heaven is. I kind of started to hope that there was NOT an afterlife.

Then the wierdest thing happened. There was a show I watched regularly for a whole bunch of seasons called The Good Place. It's about a group of four people who end up in a hell especially designed to torment them, and the comedy of it is that they think they are in heaven.

After oh so many seasons, they finally do get to go to heaven and its horrible. The people there are utterly unmotivated to do anything, because they've done it all. Sound a lot like my "boring" heavens?

Well, they shake up heaven by introducing the idea that any person in heaven could choose to leave (and go... where? back out into the essense or something?), meaning that their souls would no longer be. In the last episode, of course, we are sad, but happy, as each of our beloved kooky characters decides its' their time to leave.

I sat there after the show ended, and it was like all those years of thinking about heaven all collided into a kind of mental god particle.

I don't want t ive forever. Afterlife or no afterlife, I want it to have an end. Because that is, ultimately, what will give me the greatest happiness. Anything eternal, will just be hell of the worst sort. I'm lucky, LUCKY that I'm mortal, even though I too hve the natural instinct to stay alive, even though I mourn the death of loved ones. Lucky.


PS. when covid came around, as an person who must take immunosuppressants to stay alive, I took its seriuosly. I have the same instinctual fear of death, plus, I have my children and grandchild to live for. But one of the first things I did was write out my will, and a second document giving ideas for what I would like at my funeral in case my kids couldn't make those decisions for themselves. And now I'm just at peace about covid. I am not reckless. But I don't worry about it. What will be will be. And I've lived a rich and full life, so there are no regrets there. I'm ready to go if that's what comes my way.

Live every single day as if it is your last. It keeps priorities straight, so that when you really do come time to die, you have no regrets. Enjoy every moment. As Thoreau said, "suck the marrow out of life" so that when it comes time to die, you don't sadly realize that you never lived.

Sorry this was so longer. It's soooo difficult trying to sum up a half of a life time thinking about a topic in a single post.

 

[ChristineM]

That is the logical answer. I was not looking for a logical answer.

Right, then perhaps he had a job lot of telomeres and just had to use them.

 

[Nimos]

I think most people are afraid of dying and you are just an exception, because (1) they fear the unknown and (2) they do not want to cease to exist.

There is no unknown if it happens instantly and you don't notice anyway.

You are an awfully strange guy Nimos. Even if you do not fear death, I think if we took a poll and people were honest I think you would find out that most people (if healthy) do not want to die. Maybe it is because you are an atheist that you do not fear death, because you think there is nothing on the other side, but you are right, death is nothing to fear and Baha’u’llah even said that:

I certain the reason I have it like that is because im an atheist. The way I look at it, is like when you go to bed and the very moment where you fall asleep and drift away, I would compare that to being as close as you can get, to what it feels like to die instantly. So just as you don't fear that very moment during sleep. Neither would you fear an instant death. Maybe I should have narrowed it down to atheists only. As I think most of them would agree with me.

The biggest difference as I see it, is that religious people believe that they end up with God or in hell, if they believe that exists.
Which obviously mean that for them, death is not seen exactly as I see it, and maybe not seen as real death at all, because they continue "living" or existing afterwards. And if that is the case, then obviously a person have more to fear, because suddenly they have to be judged for the things they might have done in their physical life.

His sister had had dementia for some 20 years and was in assisted living and then hospice care and that was no life, so now that she has been freed from the body she can be herself again in the spiritual realm.

Maybe that could explain it, dementia is an awful disease.

You sound just like a Baha’i, except that they also rely upon God.

Except that I don't add God anywhere in my solution, which makes humans the only ones left with the intelligence to do something.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

The antidote for existential depression is videos. Especially "cult" classics. And by that I mean classics from an actual cult.

Happy Science, everyone!

(P.S. I don't advocate anyone join Happy Science or any cult. Having been stuck in Twelve Tribes for three days was enough, and cults are scary precisely because you feel you can't leave. What you should do with these instead is incorporate good ideas into your spirituality, reject the cult as a whole for being a cult, and laugh at the space aliens and really weird stuff that is also part of these movies)

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

I am going to lay my cards right on the table. I am really angry at God because He created humans and animals with mortal bodies such that they will die.

Dear Trailblazer
In large or small issues, this much is true for all of us.

 

[thomas t]

God is not going to save anyone or anything, because if that were the case, he would already have done it.

I don't think so.
If people truely repent and acknowledge Jesus as their savior they will be saved, I believe.
Saved means that they don't have to go to hell after death, that's at least how I see it.
Actually, there are saved people who are thrown into prison here on earth because they accepted Jesus.

 

[Pipiripi]

If you read Matthew 7:10-39, you will find a part of what you are looking for. The why that you are looking for to accept the truth I can not write it here because of rules 8. Go on my profile and go at the link that can show you everything BIBLICAL.
Also read 1Corinthians 15. Bless

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't think so.
If people truely repent and acknowledge Jesus as their savior they will be saved, I believe.
Saved means that they don't have to go to hell after death, that's at least how I see it.
Actually, there are saved people who are thrown into prison here on earth because they accepted Jesus.

I agree with @ Nimos who said:

"You want to change or make this world better, you have to rely on humans, people are good if they are given the correct conditions. No one is born evil!! Because it doesn't exist.
People do bad things, because of how they are brought up and what they experience in life. And yes some are born with biological "errors" that causes them to do bad things. But that is a minority in comparison to the ones that are ruined by how things are done in the world.

God is not going to save anyone or anything, because if that were the case, he would already have done it."

God is relying upon humans to make this world a better place and there are some people who are presently working on that because they know this is a job that God has given them to do. By contrast, most Christians are waiting for Jesus to return and fix everything that is wrong in this world, but that is not going to happen because Jesus clearly said that His work was finished in this world and He was no more in the world:
(John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30).

God has not saved anyone, as everyone is responsible to save themselves by their own actions. Someone is not saved just because they believed in Jesus, they are saved by faith and works. Belief alone never saved anyone.

Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I have reason to believe that nonbelievers will not be deprived of the divine mercy, if their deeds and morals are good. The deeds of many atheists are far better than the deeds of some believers. I can testify to that.

"This cycle is the cycle of favor and not of justice. Therefore, those whose deeds are clean and pure, even though they are not believers, will not be deprived of the divine mercy; but perfection is in faith and deeds. Undoubtedly, a person, who is not a believer, but whose deeds and morals are good, is far better than one who claims his belief in words but, who, in actions, is a follower of satan. The Blessed Beauty says, 'My humiliation is not in my imprisonment, which, by my life, is an exaltation to me; nay rather, it is in the deeds of my friends, who attribute themselves to us and commit that which causes my heart and pen to weep!'"
(Attributed to 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Star of the West, vol. 9, issue 3, p. 29)

 

[1213]

I am going to lay my cards right on the table. I am really angry at God because He created humans and animals with mortal bodies such that they will die. Why did God have to create humans and animals this way? ...

By what the Bible tells, death came after people rejected God, before that, there was no death. And I think that happened for that people would learn to know what good and evil means, as they wanted in the beginning.

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not know HOW God helps but IF God helps, He does so through people, but since I do not see God or talk to God but rather to those people, I give credit to those people and not to God.

Besides, I do not want to give any credit to God because I do not like Him right now.

You can probably guess what I think about you. And you well know my complaints about the beliefs and claims made by the Baha'is and Baha'u'llah. One of them was that I feel a Baha'i should be the peacemaker between the people in the various religions. A Baha'i should be doing and saying things that help build bridges and help create unity between the people in the different religions. To o many Baha'is were instead fanning the flames and, in my opinion, were pushing people away.

Now who's coming to your side? Who is bringing love and kindness to you? Christians, Hindus, Jews and so many others. The #&*% has hit the fan for you. Who loves you? Who has compassion for you? All these people from religions that you and other Baha'is have said are in "dead" religions... that believe in things that aren't true... that follow the wrong interpretations of their spiritual leaders.

You know I've been avoiding posting directly to you, but in this I can help you. Because, I hate this strange thing called God too, more specifically the "Abrahamic" God. The vision I have stuck in my head is a little girl clinging to her father... on the banks of the Rio Grande...they are both dead. Drowned trying to cross into the U.S. Traveling hundreds of miles from Central America to come to the United States. How many care? How many remember? Always a few, but most go about their lives. Their jobs. Their families. Their problems.

Your religion is trying to make us one family. Your religion is trying to make it to where tragedies like that won't happen. But where are the Baha'is? People getting beat up in the streets protesting about the injustices concerning Blacks. Where's the Baha'is? Too many just talk the good talk, but do very little to bring change.

For you, I think it's time. You are at the crossroad. I went away from the Baha'is. I went away from the Christians. Are you going to do the same? Probably not. But are you going to stay in you misery, or are you going to take that next step of a deeper, more trusting, more believing relationship with God? I hate to say it, and I can't do it, but it's time you truly commit yourself totally to God. Fill yourself with that greater love, the love that comes from somewhere beyond us. I've felt it a couple of times, but I turned away. If you can, believe in your religion and let go of that anger and hate and let God fill your heart with love.

Now the disclaimer. I did it for a short time as a nature loving hippie. I was in Yosemite and let the majesty of the mountains, the snow, the rivers, the waterfalls, and the trees fill me with my concept of who God was. I felt one with nature and the universe. Later, with the Baha'is I felt it. I was one with all people and believed that the Baha'i Faith was the truth. Then my friend found Jesus and took me to Bible studies. The things I learned contradicted the things the Baha'i Faith taught, so I left them for Jesus. I totally gave my heart to Jesus. You probably know the prayer they tell you to say... that you are a sinner and commit yourself to Jesus and then he washes away your sins. Well, I did that. And he did.... at least it felt like he did. He did until a few months later I started doubting what I was being taught. Then it all fell apart. So I don't know how much it matters what a person believes as much as how much they let themselves go and let love and believe in that mysterious thing out there that some people call God.

Now, as you can tell, I don't trust what religious people say anymore. And I don't like it when religious people say one thing, but they don't live it. But you don't want to be like me. It would be much better if you can live your religion. If you can trust your God. If you can, then go for it. Read that Four Valleys book or something. But, let the spirit of God fill you. And I hope, because of all the responses you've been getting, you can get a deeper love and appreciation for all these people in the different religions that care and love you. If you can do that, you'll be the type of Baha'i that I can truly respect. You'll be the type of Baha'i that people can see and feel the love of God coming from with in. If not, I guess you can always join me in my "I think God is a
Petty, Capricious Jerk Club". We meet almost everyday and wallow in our misery.

 

[Trailblazer]

By what the Bible tells, death came after people rejected God, before that, there was no death. And I think that happened for that people would learn to know what good and evil means, as they wanted in the beginning.

I do not believe that there was ever a time when there was no physical death because physical bodies were not designed to be immortal. I believe that Christians have misunderstood what the Tree of Life stands for.

Christians believe that the tree of life was a source of ongoing physical life, that Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life.

What is the Tree of Life?

“In Eden, the tree appears to have been a source of ongoing physical life. The presence of the tree of life suggests a supernatural provision of life as Adam and Eve ate the fruit their Creator provided. Adam and Eve were designed to live forever, but to do so they likely needed to eat from the tree of life. Once they sinned, they were banned from the Garden, separated from the tree, and subject to physical death, just as they had experienced spiritual death. Since Eden, death has reigned throughout history. But on the New Earth, our access to the tree of life is forever restored. (Notice that there’s no mention of a tree of the knowledge of good and evil to test us. The redeemed have already known sin and its devastation; they will desire it no more.)” What is the Tree of Life?

Baha’is believe that the tree of life is the Word of God which bestows eternal life. This tree of life was the position of the Reality of Christ; through His manifestation it was planted and adorned with everlasting fruits. Eternal life is a quality of life, of being near to God; it is not physical life, but spiritual life. God never created the physical body to live forever. Once the physical body dies, the soul leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world where it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements that exist in that realm.

It is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace. (Proverbs 3:17-18)

 

[Nimos]

I don't think so.
If people truely repent and acknowledge Jesus as their savior they will be saved, I believe.
Saved means that they don't have to go to hell after death, that's at least how I see it.
Actually, there are saved people who are thrown into prison here on earth because they accepted Jesus.

Just so I understand you correctly. Let's say a mass murderer truly repent and acknowledge Jesus as their savior after being caught killing, raping, torturing, let's say 15 people. In that case Jesus/God does not care about, what they have done to these victims, and therefore they won't go to hell?

Let's take it a bit further and look at it from the perspective of the victims. Say one of them were of another faith than Christian or an atheist at the time of murder, or let's make it fair, say they had the exact same view as the murderer before they accepted Jesus as their savior.
So now that person gets killed and doesn't have time to repent or accept Jesus as their savior, so logically they will go to hell following what you have written right?

Do you think that justice is being served in that setup? Or should we out of the blue, to avoid this injustice, add that God will save the victims as well?

Now if we add that exception to the rule, then clearly a person doesn't need to repent or acknowledge Jesus as their savior in order to not go to hell, which make your idea invalid, wouldn't you agree with that?

And if God/Jesus doesn't save the mass murderer, then clearly repenting and accepting Jesus as savior is false as well, right?

So how do you make this work?

 

[Trailblazer]

You can probably guess what I think about you. And you well know my complaints about the beliefs and claims made by the Baha'is and Baha'u'llah. One of them was that I feel a Baha'i should be the peacemaker between the people in the various religions. A Baha'i should be doing and saying things that help build bridges and help create unity between the people in the different religions. Too many Baha'is were instead fanning the flames and, in my opinion, were pushing people away.

How can they build bridges if they believe they are superior? I cannot speak for what other Baha'is believe, I can only speak for myself. I believe what Shoghi Effendi wrote because I am a Baha'i. I believe that the Dispensations of the past have been abrogated but those religions will never be abrogated because all religions are eternal, and spiritual truth and can never be abrogated, as Abdu'l-Baha said.

I try to find what the religions share in common, the eternal spiritual truths, not how we differ. But that does not mean I will not disagree if our beliefs differ, because if I agreed (e.g., as what I just posted to 1213 about the body living forever) that would be dishonest and misleading. This forum is for sharing beliefs so I see no problem in sharing the Baha'i beliefs as long as it is done respectfully, not "I am right and you are wrong."

Now who's coming to your side? Who is bringing love and kindness to you? Christians, Hindus, Jews and so many others. The #&*% has hit the fan for you. Who loves you? Who has compassion for you? All these people from religions that you and other Baha'is have said are in "dead" religions... that believe in things that aren't true... that follow the wrong interpretations of their spiritual leaders.

Do you really think I have noticed that it is the Buddhists and Hindus and Christians and Jews and atheists who come to my side when I am in need? It is not the Baha'is. I said that last night to my husband who is a Baha'i. All I get from the Baha'is is a sermon on tests and difficulties and how they are for our spiritual growth and how I should thank God for them. There is no real compassion and that is because many Baha'is are so mired in their beliefs that they cannot even be human, and apparently they feel it is their duty to deliver the Baha'i message, but a sermon on how I should relate to suffering is not what I need when I am suffering. Unfortunately, some Baha'is are just not going to understand this, and apparently they do not even realize how it might make me feel to tell me I should be grateful for suffering when I can barely endure the suffering. That is as much as telling me I am a "bad Baha'i" because I cannot endure suffering without complaining. This shows a lack of basic social skills, but as I see it it also shows a lack of spirituality when someone favors a belief over kindness and compassion.

My complaints about the Baha'is are different from your complaints. I think that many Baha'is lack compassion because they have this idea that suffering is a badge of honor and that makes them arrogant because they believe they are wearing the badge. However, I highly doubt those who wear the badge have suffered as much as I have all my life, so there is no way they can ever understand how I feel.

You know I've been avoiding posting directly to you, but in this I can help you. Because, I hate this strange thing called God too, more specifically the "Abrahamic" God. The vision I have stuck in my head is a little girl clinging to her father... on the banks of the Rio Grande...they are both dead. Drowned trying to cross into the U.S. Traveling hundreds of miles from Central America to come to the United States. How many care? How many remember? Always a few, but most go about their lives. Their jobs. Their families. Their problems.

You and I share many of the same sentiments about the Abrahamic God, that is for certain. I think we should look at what we agree on, not at what we disagree on.

Your religion is trying to make us one family. Your religion is trying to make it to where tragedies like that won't happen. But where are the Baha'is? People getting beat up in the streets protesting about the injustices concerning Blacks. Where's the Baha'is? Too many just talk the good talk, but do very little to bring change.

As I have told you in the past, I do not know much about what the Baha'is are doing because I am not involved, but I do know that the active Baha'is are doing a lot about racial prejudice because I get the e-mails about their Zoom meetings constantly. Mostly they work within the community but they also reach out to others who are not Baha'is, even governmental officials.

For you, I think it's time. You are at the crossroad. I went away from the Baha'is. I went away from the Christians. Are you going to do the same? Probably not. But are you going to stay in you misery, or are you going to take that next step of a deeper, more trusting, more believing relationship with God? I hate to say it, and I can't do it, but it's time you truly commit yourself totally to God. Fill yourself with that greater love, the love that comes from somewhere beyond us. I've felt it a couple of times, but I turned away. If you can, believe in your religion and let go of that anger and hate and let God fill your heart with love.

I have been at a crossroads for a long time, but I cannot seem to cross the road and love God. How can I when I cannot even forgive God for my suffering that "I believe" He causes, directly or indirectly?

None of my misery comes from anything the Baha'is are doing or not doing or from what the Baha'i Faith teaches. All of my misery comes from these continuous cat losses. I tried to make that clear in the OP of this thread. Then, to add insult to injury, I get Baha'is who say I should be grateful for my suffering because it helps me grow spiritually. This is abhorrent, but maybe they do not understand the extent of my suffering? But then you have to ask why so many other believers and atheists seem to understand.

I cannot commit myself totally to God because I do not like God right now, but I can commit myself totally to the Baha'i Faith because Baha'u'llah is not responsible in any way for how God created this world which is a storehouse of suffering.

I have to deal with God on my own terms. I will the angry for my suffering for a few days and then I will work through it, till next time. God can handle it. God does not need my husband defending Him like an attorney.

Thanks for sharing your own personal story again. I feel sad that you cannot seem to come to any space that is comfortable when it comes to God and religion, but in some ways we are not that different, except that I am a Baha'i. I am a Baha'i because I believe that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God, it's that simple; and because I believe that I believe everything He wrote is true. I do not need to approve of or agree with everything that Baha'is do in order to be a Baha'i. All humans are imperfect. I also do not have to love God in order to be a Baha'i, I just have to believe that God exists.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is no unknown if it happens instantly and you don't notice anyway.

The fear of the unknown is BEFORE they die, not when they die. It is in thinking about what might be waiting for them on the other side. Even though I believe the next life will be far better than this life, I do not know what it will be like so that engenders some anxiety. After all, forever is a long time, so what if I do not like the accommodations or scenery or the itinerary?

Maybe the reason you do not have any such fears is because you do not believe there IS another life after this one.

I certain the reason I have it like that is because im an atheist. The way I look at it, is like when you go to bed and the very moment where you fall asleep and drift away, I would compare that to being as close as you can get, to what it feels like to die instantly. So just as you don't fear that very moment during sleep. Neither would you fear an instant death. Maybe I should have narrowed it down to atheists only. As I think most of them would agree with me.

I understand that analogy and I would not fear an instant death, I only fear what happens after that.

The biggest difference as I see it, is that religious people believe that they end up with God or in hell, if they believe that exists.
Which obviously mean that for them, death is not seen exactly as I see it, and maybe not seen as real death at all, because they continue "living" or existing afterwards. And if that is the case, then obviously a person have more to fear, because suddenly they have to be judged for the things they might have done in their physical life.

I am glad you see the HUGE difference between believers and atheists in regard to the afterlife.

Except that I don't add God anywhere in my solution, which makes humans the only ones left with the intelligence to do something.

That is not really any different from what I believe , since I do not believe God is going to DO anything, but rather humans will do everything that needs to be done in order to build the Kingdom of God on earth, also referred to as the New World Order.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Well if there's a God [he] chose evolution as [his] tool, and evolution requires successive generations, which means the present ones have to keep getting out of the way of the future ones. (There's also the point that you can't have animals grow from small to large without the death of selected cells along the way.)

Sure, God may have used some form of evolution in lower forms of live, but Not where Human life is concerned.
God made (fashioned) Adam from the created dust of the ground - Genesis 2:7

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I don't think so.
If people truely repent and acknowledge Jesus as their savior they will be saved, I believe.
Saved means that they don't have to go to hell after death, that's at least how I see it.
Actually, there are saved people who are thrown into prison here on earth because they accepted Jesus.

Many people think of biblical hell as a pain-filled place.
That is a religious-myth teaching.
Even righteous Jesus went to hell the day he died - Acts 2:27.
Jesus did Not go to flames but to sleep.
That is why Jesus teaches ' sleep ' (Not pain ) in death - John 11:11-14.
What Jesus taught is from the old Hebrew Scriptures such as Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5
So, the Bible's hell is simply mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead til Resurrection Day.
Resurrection Day meaning Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth in righteousness.
This is why Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the ' future tense ' that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.....

Saved can also mean that one does Not have to die if alive at the coming ' time of separation' to take place among the living at Matthew 25:31-33,37.
Those figurative humble ' sheep ' alive on Earth make up the ' great crowd ' of living people at the time of Revelation 7:14,9
This is a reason why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come !
Come and undo all the damage sinners Satan and Adam brought upon us.
We are Not asking to be ' taken up ' to Jesus, nor to be ' taken away ' to Jesus, but for Jesus to come !
Come because Jesus will bring ' healing ' to earth's nations - Revelation 22:2
Healing to man and Earth as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
Even ' enemy death ' will then be No more on Earth - 1 Corinthian 15:26; Isaiah 25:8