The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

[sojourner]

The fully man, fully God idea just doesn't work in reality.

Obviously it does, or there wouldn't be a whole orthodox theology surrounding it.

Say what you will, but fathers are not equal to god/men in the flesh.

Oh? How do you know?

 

[sojourner]

So you decide, instead of saying it's the truth, that it's a "bit of a fairytale" to say that Jesus was a carpenter.

Correct.

 

[sojourner]

But you believe the doctrine anyway.

Of course. As I said, we need not be constrained by the sola scriptura heresy.

It's like evolution, for a while the present surmisals are true, then they are not true.

No. The doctrine isn't a scientific theory. The two don't work the same way.

 

[sojourner]

It was? Like God himself entered into Jesus' body from the time the virgin Mary was impregnated by holy spirit?

"The Word became flesh."

 

[SLPCCC]

The word "lord" (Greek: "kurios"), means a person of authority. It is used many times in the N.T. as a reference to Jesus: Bible, Revised Standard Version

One has to read the verses and then use their context to tell if it's a reference to God or to Jesus. One should always remember that the N.T. we have are all translations from Koine Greek, not from Hebrew.

I agree. Those copying the manuscripts in the NT changed the name YHWH into the Greek word "Kurios" or "Lord". Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the New Testament originally contained the divine name YHWH, which they translate as Jehovah. The New World Translation (NWT) (the Bible produced and used by Jehovah's Witnesses) inserts the name "Jehovah" into the New Testament in spite of the fact that not a single Greek manuscript nor even an early translation contains it. This Jehovah's Witness practice is problematic and needs to be addressed when discussing scriptures with them. It often interrupts the flow of the passages and shrouds the meaning. For example,

• “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved,” (Romans 10:9-13).

• “Everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved,” (Romans 10:9-13 NWT).

"Lord" is being applied to Jesus here, but the NWT hide the otherwise clear reference to Christ's deity from their members and possible converts as part of their indoctrination.

 

[SLPCCC]

The Bible does not teach a trinity. You can look for arguments pro and con, but frankly when you look at it clearly without prejudice you will see that there is NO WAY that God is a combination trio of three separate persons, all three equal persons always there, and combined into one being. Sorry, it just doesn't work.

But you believe that Jehovah creating Jesus as Michael the archangel does work?

 

[SLPCCC]

Scriptural Proof Jesus Existed Before Time
​

A Closer Look at Col 1:16-17 and John 1:3

• Col 1:16-17, For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

• John 1:3, “All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

The above scriptures say the following:

Jesus created the whole universe of things: “All things were created” Through Him, for Him, in Him. All things in heaven and All things on earth. All things visible and all things invisible (this includes the heavenly realms and spiritual authorities), whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. Everything and everywhere anytime Jesus was the creator. Being the creator of all things would include all of the universe of created things including time itself.

Christ existed before all things in point of time: “He is before all things” If Jesus created all things and is before all things then He is the first cause and everything is before Him including time. Since He is before time, He must be eternal and nothing was created before Him including Himself.

Christ is the Preserver of the Universe: “In Him all things hold together” Jesus even holds the very maintenance and continuation of the universe. He sustains that which he sovereignly brought into being, even time itself.

 

[metis]

I agree. Those copying the manuscripts in the NT changed the name YHWH into the Greek word "Kurios" or "Lord".

By the time of Jesus, it was already customary within Jewish circles not to write or say "YHWH", with the exception of the Temple priests on Yom Kippur. I'm not certain, but my guess is that this is why the authors and translators chose "Kurios".

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the New Testament originally contained the divine name YHWH, which they translate as Jehovah.

Whereas "Jehovah" is a mispronunciation anyway because there's no hard "J" sound in Hebrew. On top of that, since Torah was written minus vowels, we have no clue which vowels should be included and where?

Thus, what they have done is to use a "divide & conquer" approach, whereas they have the "right answers" and all others are basically in infidel churches.

 

[Dogknox20]

The scriptures absolutely do not teach the doctrine of the Trinity. The Nicene Creed was only the tip of the iceberg when it came to the man's attempt to corrupt the nature of God. The Athanasian Creed reads like a legal document. It gives me a headache just thinking about it. God never intended to be co confusing to His children.

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.

For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.

Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal.

As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three gods, but one God.

So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord.

For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords.

The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

He therefore that will be saved must think thus of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who, although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, He sits at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the quick and the dead. At His coming all men will rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.

Katzpur I disagree with your words.... The Scriptures most definitely teach "Trinity"!!
The Great Commission...... "Go make disciples of all nations baptizing them in .. The Name of the father" ..Katzpur With the AUTHORITY of the father!
Katzpur When you speak in a persons name you are representing that very same person! You are thus speaking with their authority!
In the name of the Son.... "With the AUTHORITY of the son!" & In the name of the Holy Spirit..."With the Authority of the Holy Spirit"!

Jesus gave his One Holy Catholic Church the AUTHORITY to represent God! LOOK.... This verse comes just before in the Great Commission.. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples ........ Clearly Jesus is passing on the authority of God to his One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church! AND.......

Katzpur and just after Jesus gave all the authority of God to his Church he also said..... "Go and TEACH all nations"..... The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church TEACHES with the AUTHORITY of God "TRINITY"! WAIT.....
Katzpur wait.... There is more... Jesus finished the "Great Commission" with these words.... "I am with you ALWAYS to the end of time"! This means if you think Jesus' church failed you must reject the words of Jesus as a lie! You MUST reject Jesus is always with his holy body to the end of time! Jesus started with his church he built it on ROCK he is still to this day with his holy Church!

So go and make followers of all people in the world. Baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. 20 Teach them to obey everything that I have told you to do. You can be sure that I will be with you always. I will continue with you until the end of time.”

 

[YoursTrue]

I think we can look at it in two different ways: 1) the fully human Jesus praying to his Father, 2) God carrying on an inner dialog.

According to what the Bible says, he--Jesus--prayed to his Father. Who was in heaven.
"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots." Luke 23:34.
“Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven." Matthew 10:32
(He wasn't his own father.)

 

[YoursTrue]

By the time of Jesus, it was already customary within Jewish circles not to write or say "YHWH", with the exception of the Temple priests on Yom Kippur. I'm not certain, but my guess is that this is why the authors and translators chose "Kurios".

Whereas "Jehovah" is a mispronunciation anyway because there's no hard "J" sound in Hebrew. On top of that, since Torah was written minus vowels, we have no clue which vowels should be included and where?

Thus, what they have done is to use a "divide & conquer" approach, whereas they have the "right answers" and all others are basically in infidel churches.

There is simply no way that YHWH is translated as Lord. First get that straight.

 

[YoursTrue]

Katzpur I disagree with your words.... The Scriptures most definitely teach "Trinity"!!
The Great Commission...... "Go make disciples of all nations baptizing them in .. The Name of the father" ..Katzpur With the AUTHORITY of the father!
Katzpur When you speak in a persons name you are representing that very same person! You are thus speaking with their authority!
In the name of the Son.... "With the AUTHORITY of the son!" & In the name of the Holy Spirit..."With the Authority of the Holy Spirit"!

Jesus gave his One Holy Catholic Church the AUTHORITY to represent God! LOOK.... This verse comes just before in the Great Commission.. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples ........ Clearly Jesus is passing on the authority of God to his One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church! AND.......

Katzpur and just after Jesus gave all the authority of God to his Church he also said..... "Go and TEACH all nations"..... The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church TEACHES with the AUTHORITY of God "TRINITY"! WAIT.....
Katzpur wait.... There is more... Jesus finished the "Great Commission" with these words.... "I am with you ALWAYS to the end of time"! This means if you think Jesus' church failed you must reject the words of Jesus as a lie! You MUST reject Jesus is always with his holy body to the end of time! Jesus started with his church he built it on ROCK he is still to this day with his holy Church!

So go and make followers of all people in the world. Baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. 20 Teach them to obey everything that I have told you to do. You can be sure that I will be with you always. I will continue with you until the end of time.”

#2 - those billions that have been "baptized" in the "name" of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit obviously do not obey everything JESUS told them to do.
#1 - to be baptized in the "name" of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit does not mean there are three persons equal to one another comprising one entity in that name.

 

[YoursTrue]

By the time of Jesus, it was already customary within Jewish circles not to write or say "YHWH", with the exception of the Temple priests on Yom Kippur. I'm not certain, but my guess is that this is why the authors and translators chose "Kurios".

Whereas "Jehovah" is a mispronunciation anyway because there's no hard "J" sound in Hebrew. On top of that, since Torah was written minus vowels, we have no clue which vowels should be included and where?

Thus, what they have done is to use a "divide & conquer" approach, whereas they have the "right answers" and all others are basically in infidel churches.

There is no such divide and conquer approach because using your own terminology, Jesus isn't the right way of saying the name of God's SON. Give it up.

 

[sojourner]

According to what the Bible says, he--Jesus--prayed to his Father. Who was in heaven.
"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots." Luke 23:34.
“Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven." Matthew 10:32
(He wasn't his own father.)

Fine. The fully human Jesus was praying to God. but the Bible also says that the Spirit prays within us in sighs too deep for words. The fully divine Jesus could also be carrying out inner dialog. Y'know, this is theology, not major surgery. This isn't an "everything is black-and-white" proposition. There's quite an ineffable quality to theology.

 

[sojourner]

There is simply no way that YHWH is translated as Lord. First get that straight.

Then you tell me why most translators of the Hebrew texts insert "LORD" whenever the tetragrammaton appears?

#1 - to be baptized in the "name" of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit does not mean there are three persons equal to one another comprising one entity in that name.

That's exactly what it means.

There is no such divine and conquer approach

Yes there is. JWs assert that we are all part of some fabled "Great Apostasy," and the truth ain't in us.

 

[YoursTrue]

But you believe that Jehovah creating Jesus as Michael the archangel does work?

I like people to find their own answers. Therefore I will tell you that there is nothing to say that Jehovah created Jesus as Michael the archangel. This does not mean that Michael is not another name for the Son of God. It's kind of like looking at the gospel account and seeing Jesus (not Michael) praying to God asking for help. First you have to read the scriptures. Then you need to pray for God's holy spirit to help you understand them.

 

[YoursTrue]

Fine. The fully human Jesus was praying to God. but the Bible also says that the Spirit prays within us in sighs too deep for words. The fully divine Jesus could also be carrying out inner dialog. Y'know, this is theology, not major surgery. This isn't an "everything is black-and-white" proposition. There's quite an ineffable quality to theology.

You can't have a person in human flesh fully human and fully God. Period. Just like God does not die. You're going to tell me that there's an ineffable quality to theology, therefore Jesus is fully God and fully man at the same time? Don't leave out that some believe he stayed God-in-the-flesh -- yet then you're going to say the three supposed persons are always there, always equal? I suggest you go to the scriptures.

 

[YoursTrue]

Then you tell me why most translators of the Hebrew texts insert "LORD" whenever the tetragrammaton appears?

You're the teacher. You don't know?

 

[YoursTrue]

Then you tell me why most translators of the Hebrew texts insert "LORD" whenever the tetragrammaton appears?


That's exactly what it means.


Yes there is. JWs assert that we are all part of some fabled "Great Apostasy," and the truth ain't in us.

Interesting you align yourself with the doctrine and not explaining the Bible.

 

[Dogknox20]

#2 - those billions that have been "baptized" in the "name" of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit obviously do not obey everything JESUS told them to do.
#1 - to be baptized in the "name" of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit does not mean there are three persons equal to one another comprising one entity in that name.

I reply: You are wrong! They do obey Jesus, they have been Baptizing to make disciples for 2000 years! They have been Baptizing in the Name of God with the AUTHORITY of God to make his Children for 2000 years!
You said... to be baptized in the "name" of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit does not mean there are three persons equal to one another comprising one entity in that name.
I reply to your statement (above) again you are wrong! Proof is for two thousand years Christians have been making God' children by his AUTHORITY to do so! Christians teach Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God! FACT IS: Arius was removed from AMONG Christians because he taught false he was removed as a Heretic from the One Church Jesus established!
God is ONE! All believe there is only one God and Just one God! God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are ONE.. Just as the scriptures tell you!
One God with THREE AUTHORITYS equal God!