The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

[PearlSeeker]

When Jesus says "I am" he using the name of God as it was revealed to Moses, and the Jews knew exactly what he was implying and picked up stones to kill him.

I agree with your interpretation but the bold part is questionable/historically unreliable.

 

[1213]

You are taking them out of context.

I think you do the same with John 8:58.

You stated that God is called " I am" at Gen 3:14. You understand that at John 8:58 Jesus says,

“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to throw at Him..."

Why didn't Jesus just say before Abraham was born, I was??? Could it be that he was using God's name, "I am"??? Why did the Jews want to kill him as soon as he said that??? Jews would not stone you if you said you were 2000 years old. They would just write you off as being crazy. But if you used God's name "I Am", the way He did, crazy or not, you would get stoned. The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was saying.

Actually, in some translations it is “I was”, which fits better to what Jesus is saying. If we interpret that Jesus means with “I am” God, then he is actually saying “before Abraham was born, God!”, which obviously is not very logical answer in that context. It would not be the same as “I am God”, or “I am I am”, which would be the claim that he is God. I don’t think it is reasonable to think Jesus was saying he is God and certainly, if we are literal, he is not doing that.

 

[YoursTrue]

Not the doctrine, itself.

Do you mean the trinity doctrine? Not the Athansian Creed? Because the Athanasian Creed says those who do not hold the trinity in faith are to perish everlastingly. That creed is considered by some to be a Christian statement of belief outlining the Trinitarian doctrine, and since this thread speaks of the Athanasian creed, it has been used by churches since the sixth century, and is said to be the first creed in which the equality of the three persons of the Trinity is explicitly stated. It does include condemnations (anathemas) of those who disagree. It has been used less and less as time goes on.

 

[YoursTrue]

I think you do the same with John 8:58.



Actually, in some translations it is “I was”, which fits better to what Jesus is saying. If we interpret that Jesus means with “I am” God, then he is actually saying “before Abraham was born, God!”, which obviously is not very logical answer in that context. It would not be the same as “I am God”, or “I am I am”, which would be the claim that he is God. I don’t think it is reasonable to think Jesus was saying he is God and certainly, if we are literal, he is not doing that.

Similarly, there are statements in the Bible which say, "I am," and it does not refer to the name of God, or God. If someone is asked, "Are you the person that was there when the Queen of England was crowned," and he says, "I am," he doesn't mean I am always existing before and after. It means he is the person who was there. There are several Bibles that translate "ego eimi" as in existing beforehand. In fact, the New Testament edited by a Jesuit scholar says, "I was there before Abraham was born."

 

[SLPCCC]

I think you do the same with John 8:58.
Actually, in some translations it is “I was”, which fits better to what Jesus is saying.

Yes, I saw that after. However, most translations say "I am". The reason. The Original Greek, The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, says "I am"

• Saidαὐτοῖς to them Ἰησοῦς Jesus ᾿ΑμὴνAmenἀμὴν amen λέγω I am saying ὑμῖν, to YOU πρὶν Before ᾿Αβραὰμ Abraham γενέσθαι to become ἐγὼIεἰμ ί am.

I would go with the original Greek.

If we interpret that Jesus means with “I am” God, then he is actually saying “before Abraham was born, God!”, which obviously is not very logical answer in that context. It would not be the same as “I am God”, or “I am I am”, which would be the claim that he is God. I don’t think it is reasonable to think Jesus was saying he is God and certainly, if we are literal, he is not doing that.

First, God's name "I Am" is not the name Yahweh [Lord] but is interchangeable. That's why at Ex: 3:14 He says,

• This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’

But in verse 15 He says,

• “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD [Yahweh], the God of your fathers...has sent me to you.’

Why did God first say "tell them 'I Am' sent you" but then a verse later God's say "tell them The Lord [Yahweh] sent you"? Why did God change the name? The reason is that the first time God is communicating the idea of "tell them I am the one who is, ie, the eternal God. When Jesus says" before Abraham was, I am", Jesus was saying, "before Abraham was, I am the one who is.

 

[sojourner]

Do you mean the trinity doctrine? Not the Athansian Creed? Because the Athanasian Creed says those who do not hold the trinity in faith are to perish everlastingly. That creed is considered by some to be a Christian statement of belief outlining the Trinitarian doctrine, and since this thread speaks of the Athanasian creed, it has been used by churches since the sixth century, and is said to be the first creed in which the equality of the three persons of the Trinity is explicitly stated. It does include condemnations (anathemas) of those who disagree. It has been used less and less as time goes on.

I’m well aware of the creed. It is not an official creed. I’ve already commented on its historicity.

 

[SLPCCC]

Similarly, there are statements in the Bible which say, "I am," and it does not refer to the name of God, or God. If someone is asked, "Are you the person that was there when the Queen of England was crowned," and he says, "I am," he doesn't mean I am always existing before and after. It means he is the person who was there. There are several Bibles that translate "ego eimi" as in existing beforehand. In fact, the New Testament edited by a Jesuit scholar says, "I was there before Abraham was born."

Like I said earlier, You have to look at the context.

 

[SLPCCC]

Oh oh thank you for letting me know. This is about the Athanasian Creed, though, which states those who do not believe in the trinity will perish.

It does say those who do not hold the faith of the trinity will perish everlastingly.

Are you beginning to worry? LOL

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, I saw that after. However, most translations say "I am". The reason. The Original Greek, The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, says "I am"

• Saidαὐτοῖς to them Ἰησοῦς Jesus ᾿ΑμὴνAmenἀμὴν amen λέγω I am saying ὑμῖν, to YOU πρὶν Before ᾿Αβραὰμ Abraham γενέσθαι to become ἐγὼIεἰμ ί am.

I would go with the original Greek.

The original Greek presents problems for translators, since the words do not always translate exactly word for word, and many commentators realize this. For instance, according to some theologians, in the case of John 8:58, the structure "before" does not carry any indication of tense in Greek, and they have considered there is a more natural rendering to the phrase. Greek and Hebrew do not always translate as we understand. The phrase "Before Abraham, I am," itself is not a normal expression. I am can mean I exist, and even literally does not mean that Jesus is without beginning, equal to the other two persons said to be in the trinity.
Important also to the subject, the words YHWH (Yahweh or Jehovah) and "I am" (ego eimi) are not interchangeable. Just as LORD is said by many to be interchangeable with YHWH but it's not. It is VERY misleading to substitute LORD for YHWH (Yahweh or Jehovah, as some English translators have it). But in the case of ego eimi, does not mean that Jesus is God without beginning, equal to the other two persons. More language technicality can be gone into.

 

[YoursTrue]

Are you beginning to worry? LOL

lol...no, in fact that statement of "perish everlastingly" if one does not believe the Trinity is proof that it is a contrivance. Now the question is: do YOU believe that those who do not believe that God is three persons always there without beginning, etc., will perish everlastingly.

 

[YoursTrue]

Like I said earlier, You have to look at the context.

We'll go more into it later. Because when Jesus said, "I am," he wasn't saying he is without beginning. That's for starters. But -- there's more since you're so interested in the technical stuff, and as far as I can, I'll go into that.

 

[YoursTrue]

That's not what I said. l I said I believe the doctrine of the Trinity. The "everlasting death" part isn't included in the doctrine, and since I'm not RC, I don't have to believe that. In fact, i don't think anyone "goes to hell eternally."

So you don't believe the creed. The trinity doctrine is within the creed, but you don't believe the creed. OK. You believe the trinity, but not the entire Athanasian creed, because you're not a Roman Catholic.

 

[sojourner]

So you don't believe the creed. The trinity doctrine is within the creed, but you don't believe the creed. OK. You believe the trinity, but not the entire Athanasian creed, because you're not a Roman Catholic.

The doctrine is apart from the Creed. The Creed sums up the doctrine. Not even RCs hold the Athanasian Creed as authoritative.

 

[SLPCCC]

We'll go more into it later. Because when Jesus said, "I am," he wasn't saying he is without beginning. That's for starters. But -- there's more since you're so interested in the technical stuff, and as far as I can, I'll go into that.

OK, so you believe Jesus is Michael the archangel. What scriptural evidence do you have for that?

 

[SLPCCC]

The original Greek presents problems for translators, since the words do not always translate exactly word for word, and many commentators realize this. For instance, according to some theologians, in the case of John 8:58, the structure "before" does not carry any indication of tense in Greek, and they have considered there is a more natural rendering to the phrase. Greek and Hebrew do not always translate as we understand. The phrase "Before Abraham, I am," itself is not a normal expression. I am can mean I exist, and even literally does not mean that Jesus is without beginning, equal to the other two persons said to be in the trinity.
Important also to the subject, the words YHWH (Yahweh or Jehovah) and "I am" (ego eimi) are not interchangeable. Just as LORD is said by many to be interchangeable with YHWH but it's not. It is VERY misleading to substitute LORD for YHWH (Yahweh or Jehovah, as some English translators have it). But in the case of ego eimi, does not mean that Jesus is God without beginning, equal to the other two persons. More language technicality can be gone into.

You are not showing anything that backs up your claims. This sounds like a lot of opinions. The JWs dishonestly quoted from historians and the early church Fathers. Where are you getting your sources? There is a lot of stuff out there that doesn't necessarily mean it's honest or neutral.

 

[YoursTrue]

You are not showing anything that backs up your claims. This sounds like a lot of opinions. The JWs dishonestly quoted from historians and the early church Fathers. Where are you getting your sources? There is a lot of stuff out there that doesn't necessarily mean it's honest or neutral.

There is no need to get too deep into the subject of translation with Lord, LORD, and substituting for YHWH. But translators have misled readers for a long time. In fact, if you want to look at it without getting involved in theory, you can see that Jesus is not spelled YHWH. It's a simple equation. LORD is the translational substitute for YHWH, not Jesus.

 

[YoursTrue]

Why is it you can't see that Jehovah says that "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." but at the same time

1. ...

People with understanding know what that scripture means and its placement.

 

[YoursTrue]

You are not showing anything that backs up your claims. This sounds like a lot of opinions. The JWs dishonestly quoted from historians and the early church Fathers. Where are you getting your sources? There is a lot of stuff out there that doesn't necessarily mean it's honest or neutral.

The Bible does not teach a trinity. You can look for arguments pro and con, but frankly when you look at it clearly without prejudice you will see that there is NO WAY that God is a combination trio of three separate persons, all three equal persons always there, and combined into one being. Sorry, it just doesn't work.

 

[1213]

...When Jesus says" before Abraham was, I am", Jesus was saying, "before Abraham was, I am the one who is.

Sorry, I don’t see any good reason to believe that.

 

[SLPCCC]

Sorry, I don’t see any good reason to believe that.

Justin Martyr, an early Christian apologist, in the second century. The Watchtower teaches that Justin Martyr “called the prehuman Jesus a created angel. Justin Martyr actually taught that Christ is “the Angel of God” who conversed with Moses out of the burning bush and revealed Himself as Jehovah God, read Ex. 3:2-14

• There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from within a bush. Moses saw the bush ablaze with fire, but it was not consumed...“I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob...God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.h This is what you are to say to the Israelites:

• After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai. .. the voice of the Lord came to him: 32‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.’g Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look. Acts 7: 30-33

No one has ever seen God, so who was this angel of the Lord??? Could it have been Jesus who to the Jews said, Before Abraham was, I AM?

JUSTIN MARTYR (165 A.D.)

• “For at that juncture, when Moses was ordered to go down into Egypt…our Christ conversed with him under the appearance of fire from a bush….‘And the Angel of God spake to Moses, in a flame of fire out of the bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of thy fathers….’…the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets….in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts….Moreover, in the diapsalm of the forty-sixth Psalm, reference is thus made to Christ: ‘God went up with a shout….’ And Trypho said, ‘…For you utter many blasphemies, in that you seek to persuade us that this crucified man was with Moses and Aaron, and spoke to them in the pillar of the cloud…and ought to be worshipped.’…And Trypho said, ‘We have heard what you think of these matters.…For when you say that this Christ existed as God before the ages…’ ”—The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pp. 184, 212, 213, 219

Choosing to die rather than to renounce Christ, Justin was executed in about 165 A.D. After his death, he became known as Justin the Martyr, or simply Justin Martyr. Apart from the inspired New Testament writings, Justin’s 1st Apology is perhaps the single most valuable work of early Christianity. He was martyred together with six companions in 165 AD.



IGNATIUS (30-107 A.D.)

• “Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia…predestinated before the beginning of time…and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God….Being the followers of God, and stirring up yourselves by the blood of God, ye have perfectly accomplished the work which was beseeming to you….There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, — even Jesus Christ our Lord.” —The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 1, pp. 49, 52

Ignatius provides ample evidence that the concept of the Deity of Christ was well-known and accepted by the apostles and the early Church, and therefore cannot be of pagan origin.