• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

If God exists can evil also exist?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The existence of evil is an ancient perspective to try and explain the dark and violent aspet of humanity and nature they could not explanation as coming from God, because God's Creation must be God. Therefore various explanations such as humanity is responsible for bringing evil into the world with the 'Original Sin] and the 'Fall.' The involvement of Demons and other manifestations of evil are common in ancient worldviews,

I reality the nature of our existence is as it is naturally whether God exists or not, and there is no such thing as an 'evil' outside source.
Then there is also this perspective:

“The epitome of this discourse is that it is possible that one thing in relation to another may be evil, and at the same time within the limits of its proper being it may not be evil. Then it is proved that there is no evil in existence; all that God created He created good. This evil is nothingness; so death is the absence of life. When man no longer receives life, he dies. Darkness is the absence of light: when there is no light, there is darkness. Light is an existing thing, but darkness is nonexistent. Wealth is an existing thing, but poverty is nonexisting.

Then it is evident that all evils return to nonexistence. Good exists; evil is nonexistent.”

Some Answered Questions, p. 264

74: THE NONEXISTENCE OF EVIL
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Not to mention there is an omnipotent deity that could grant you this knowledge instantly with no suffering required.
God does not owe it to you to grant you anything, just because God is omnipotent.

It is just tough toenails that you and those who think like you do not like suffering and you believe God owes everyone a suffering-free life. The joke is on you because most people who really suffer never complain about it, because they understand that it is just part of living, and they know it makes them a better person in the end.

“Men who suffer not, attain no perfection. The plant most pruned by the gardeners is that one which, when the summer comes, will have the most beautiful blossoms and the most abundant fruit.

The labourer cuts up the earth with his plough, and from that earth comes the rich and plentiful harvest. The more a man is chastened, the greater is the harvest of spiritual virtues shown forth by him. A soldier is no good General until he has been in the front of the fiercest battle and has received the deepest wounds.” Paris Talks, p. 51


Then again, if spiritual virtues are of no importance to you, the suffering is for naught.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Were I to define evil, I would say it is as you defined it. Human and animal suffering is separate from evil and I do not believe God is off the hook for all human and animal suffering, I but I do believe God us off the hook for all evil acts humans commit which are either unjustified or intended on purpose because I believe that humans have free will to choose.
As the question of good and evil emanating from the same God was always a puzzle to me, I made it my goal to sort this dilemma out for myself. Here is what I discovered through my study of the Bible.....FWIW.

In nature, and in everything that pertains to human activity, there are always equal opposites.....its the balance of nature.....pure and simple..."for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction"....we take that for granted....in, out....up, down....forwards, backwards....with, without.... If good exists, then evil must of necessity be its equal opposite...a natural balance.

Going back to the garden of Eden, what do we find? We find God shielding humankind from a knowledge of good and evil....not from just knowing about it, but from experiencing it. The tree that humans were not to touch was placed in the garden as God's property. Yet because he created humans to be free willed, he had to place it there as a choice.....but in front of it was a huge deterrent...the death penalty. The only way to shield his human children from evil was for them to allow God (of their own free will) to determine what was good and what was not. It would have meant that only good things would come into the realms of their experience, whilst God kept evil away...like any good parent, his goal was to protect them.

The story goes that a rebel spirit presented the woman with a lie that would 1) take the penalty away (in her mind at least) and 2) make the eating (theft) of that fruit appear to be very attractive....she would "be like God, knowing good and evil" for herself.....it was too good to pass up, and not content, she persuaded her husband to disobey God's command as well, and guess what? Eating that fruit changed their lives forever....but it didn't make them "like God" at all. It caused evil thoughts to enter their minds, and their first evil realization was their shame at being naked. Sex has caused shame ever since, but it was never supposed to.

Their naked bodies now made them feel uncomfortable....and they responded by covering up their reproductive parts with fig leaves. Apparently that was not good enough, so God clothed the pair with long garments of skin, not only to protect their modesty, but also to protect their bodies from the thorns and thistles that the cursed ground outside the garden would now grow for them.

They went from eating ripe lush fruit for the picking, to having to till the unproductive soil to produce crops and make bread.....eking out a difficult existence requiring sweat and hard work.
It also meant that their bodies, (now 'unplugged' from the Creator and the tree of life that was at their disposal in the garden,) would begin to age, succumb to sickness and die....something that they were not designed for.

Within one generation a murderer was produced as a knowledge of evil became the first act of evil.....and the rest, as they say, is history....we have been struggling with the fruitage of sin and disobedience ever since....evil acts continued to invade human activity.

This is the greatest object lesson that humans will ever experience. They chose to step outside of God's protection to decide for themselves what was good and what was evil, but imperfection was to daunt their every step. Nothing they had in mind to do would prove to be successful, because now God was not protecting them. Selfishness caused this problem and selfishness continues to dominate in the world of their making. We are seeing what independence from God looks like. Its not pretty.

So from my perspective, it makes complete sense that good and evil exist in this world, and God has promised to end this object lesson and bring us back to what he started....with lessons learned and precedents set for all time to come. No one will ever be able to promote independence from God ever again....and he can get on with whatever he has planned for this vast Universe.....and he has forever to do it.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
If God exists can evil also exist?

@ Koldo said:

God, to be God, has to be omnibenevolent.
If God behaves in a manner contrary to omnibenevolence, he is not omnibenevolent, and therefore not God.

Evil is detrimental to our well-being, and therefore, as a matter of logic, its existence is incompatible with the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent being.

The existence of evil is contradictory to God's utmost desire: our well-beings. And therefore, the existence of evil (that which is contrary to our well-beings) is proof that God doesn't exist

God can't be at the same time all-good by nature and not do whatever is necessary to prevent evil.

God, if he existed, would prevent all people from doing evil.

****************************************************************************************

If an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God existed, would such a God allow evil to exist in the world?

If you answer yes, please explain why you think so.
If you answer no, please explain why you don’t think so.​

Is the existence of evil in the world a reason to believe that God (as defined above) does not exist?

If you answer yes, please explain why you think so.
If you answer no, please explain why you don’t think so.​

Thanks, Trailblazer. :)

Maybe the below are a few things you need to consideration into your quesitons in order to get the best answers possible.
  1. What is a "God" and who/what determines the correct definitions and parameters for such?
  2. What are systematic and universal set of definitions of what is good and what is evil?
  3. From whose, or what, perspective is good and evil determined? (Internal to humanity or external to it?)
  4. Is evil really something that comes from a particular place, or a particular state, or is it simply the lack of something? (For example, a room with bright lights may lack darkness, yet the ability to turn the lights off may give the ability for their to be darkness.)
  5. Is it possible that something humans perceive is not really evil from an outside non-human perspective?
  6. Is it possible that human actions or inaction is the source of what humans perceive to be evil?
  7. Is it possible that human action or inaction can alter what humans perceive to be evil?
  8. Is it possible that humans really want evil in their lives in order to have what they perceive to be good? (For example, a person may love to skydive and they may derive a real sense of thrill and enjoyment out of it but they must also accept the ability for things to go horribly wrong because of the risks involved in literally jumping out of a plane and diving towards the earth. Even with the best of preperations to mitigate the risks there are all sorts of natural events that can turn the practice into tragedy.)
 
Last edited:

EsonauticSage

Between extremes
If God exists can evil also exist?

@ Koldo said:

God, to be God, has to be omnibenevolent.
If God behaves in a manner contrary to omnibenevolence, he is not omnibenevolent, and therefore not God.

Evil is detrimental to our well-being, and therefore, as a matter of logic, its existence is incompatible with the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent being.

The existence of evil is contradictory to God's utmost desire: our well-beings. And therefore, the existence of evil (that which is contrary to our well-beings) is proof that God doesn't exist

God can't be at the same time all-good by nature and not do whatever is necessary to prevent evil.

God, if he existed, would prevent all people from doing evil.

****************************************************************************************

If an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God existed, would such a God allow evil to exist in the world?

If you answer yes, please explain why you think so.
If you answer no, please explain why you don’t think so.​

Is the existence of evil in the world a reason to believe that God (as defined above) does not exist?

If you answer yes, please explain why you think so.
If you answer no, please explain why you don’t think so.​

Thanks, Trailblazer. :)

I'm very open to an evil God (or even more so, Amoral), but I think it is folly because morality is a sociological phenomenon.
I don't see any logical reason (including from an Abrahamic perspective) to take morality as existing outside of human society. I think that is also why God is said to reveal morality to us through laws and commandments in scriptures, because it is an aspect of nature that is naturally imbalanced (unlike non-sentient animals who are simply their own foodchain).

There is something about evil, and it's violence, that makes a far greater case for divinity than "loving kindness" which presumes God to meet up to our emotional sentiments.
The real God has to be terrifying and disturbing, so terrifying that it would make you insane if you experienced even a whiff of it via vision or prophecy. Such a God is the only one worthy of worship, not a loving God - which is only worth our pity. (of course, we're speaking anthropomorphically here, which is only symbolic not literal).
I am still thinking all of this through though.

The tendency in especially Christianity to be afraid to attribute evil to God is something that does Christianity more harm than good because it makes their idea of God frail and even helpless, in their conception.
 
Last edited:

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I'm very open to an evil God (or even more so, Amoral), but I think it is folly because morality is a sociological phenomenon.
I don't see any logical reason (including from an Abrahamic perspective) to take morality as existing outside of human society. I think that is also why God is said to reveal morality to us through laws and commandments in scriptures, because it is an aspect of nature that is naturally imbalanced (unlike non-sentient animals who are simply their own foodchain).

There is something about evil, and it's violence, that makes a far greater case for divinity than "loving kindness" which presumes God to meet up to our emotional sentiments.
The real God has to be terrifying and disturbing, so terrifying that it would make you insane if you experienced even a whiff of it via vision or prophecy. Such a God is the only one worthy of worship, not a loving God. (of course, we're speaking anthropomorphically here, which is only symbolic not literal).
I am still thinking all of this through though.

The tendency in especially Christianity to be afraid to attribute evil to God is something that does Christianity more harm than good because it makes their idea of God frail and even helpless, in their conception.
Welcome to the forum. You are like a breath of fresh air that just blew in. :)

What you said is certainly food for thought. I am also still thinking all of this through. I am not one to settle upon what I might want, but rather I want to know the truth.

I am constantly having it shoved down my throat by believers that God is All-Loving but what about scriptures that say God is wrathful? I have an academic background in psychology and from my perspective I think people want and need to believe that God is All-Loving to fulfill a need they have for God to be All-Loving. I have no such need to be loved so I am able to think outside of that box. It is particularly Christians who think this way, but many Baha'is also have this way of thinking that God is All-Loving. They kind of tend to ignore passages like the ones below. Indeed, I agree that the real God has to be terrifying and disturbing :eek: and I think that is one reason God never reveals Himself to us directly, but rather through His Messengers. Also, God thinks He is pretty Great, and He wants us to believe He is Great, and if we don't believe that, well.....
I often wonder why God would care if we believe He is Great, if He knows He is Great.

“Grieve thou not over those that have busied themselves with the things of this world, and have forgotten the remembrance of God, the Most Great. By Him Who is the Eternal Truth! The day is approaching when the wrathful anger of the Almighty will have taken hold of them. He, verily, is the Omnipotent, the All-Subduing, the Most Powerful. He shall cleanse the earth from the defilement of their corruption, and shall give it for an heritage unto such of His servants as are nigh unto Him.” Gleanings, p. 208

“We have a fixed time for you, O peoples. If ye fail, at the appointed hour, to turn towards God, He, verily, will lay violent hold on you, and will cause grievous afflictions to assail you from every direction. How severe, indeed, is the chastisement with which your Lord will then chastise you!” Gleanings, p. 214
 
Last edited:

EsonauticSage

Between extremes
Welcome to the forum. You are like a breath of fresh air that just blew in. :)

What you said is certainly food for thought. I am also still thinking all of this through. I am not one to settle upon what I might want, but rather I want to know the truth.

I am constantly having it shoved down my throat by believers that God is All-Loving but what about scriptures that say God is wrathful? I have an academic background in psychology and from my perspective I think people want and need to believe that God is All-Loving to fulfill a need they have for God to be All-Loving. I have no such need to be loved so I am able to think outside of that box. It is particularly Christians who think this way, but many Baha'is also have this way of thinking that God is All-Loving. They kind of tend to ignore passages like the ones below. Indeed, I agree that the real God has to be terrifying and disturbing :eek: and I think that is one reason God never reveals Himself to us directly, but rather through His Messengers. Also, God thinks He is pretty Great, and He wants us to believe He is Great, and if we don't believe that, well.....
I often wonder why God would care if we believe he is Great, if He knows He is Great.

“Grieve thou not over those that have busied themselves with the things of this world, and have forgotten the remembrance of God, the Most Great. By Him Who is the Eternal Truth! The day is approaching when the wrathful anger of the Almighty will have taken hold of them. He, verily, is the Omnipotent, the All-Subduing, the Most Powerful. He shall cleanse the earth from the defilement of their corruption, and shall give it for an heritage unto such of His servants as are nigh unto Him.” Gleanings, p. 208

“We have a fixed time for you, O peoples. If ye fail, at the appointed hour, to turn towards God, He, verily, will lay violent hold on you, and will cause grievous afflictions to assail you from every direction. How severe, indeed, is the chastisement with which your Lord will then chastise you!” Gleanings, p. 214

I think also in addition, there is a violent sense of contradiction to the nature of consciousness and to biology itself. The violent, wrathful, monstrosity of God is something that is very much at the root of being itself. I would liken "seeing God" to an AI becoming actually self-conscious and then short-circuiting.

God being the inner center of all things, material and spiritual.

In part, one of the very basic and obvious aspects of this violence is simply being born. That cognition starts functioning in a child pretty early on but it takes them years to start ascertaining language etc.
All of us don't get a choice in our births and we are brought seemingly out of nothingness into the material world as beings that are able to know that they are thinking and perceiving etc.

Also take time as another example. Time itself is known to be illusory even by mainstream science now (but both Abrahamic and Dharmic religions have long taught that already).
All of the life of the entire seemingly infinite universe is just a bang and then destruction.
To us it seems to be trillions and trillions of years that this happens, but from the microcosmic perspective this is a very instantaneous and very very violent process of birth, death, birth, death. Think like waves crashing against a wharf on a very stormy day, or even like a clothes drier going round and round.

It seems that God creates out of destruction, that it is one very vile infinite process (at least in outward manifest material reality).
All of that violence on every known level of existence, is all God.

Human goodness and badness seems insignificant by contrast.

But there is also wisdom there because God obviously sends Prophets and sages, and religions form around many of these figures. All of these figures are trying to enlighten us to understanding where the light is in this darkness.
The problem I feel though is separating darkness from light, they're both important.

I thank God for **his** repulsive psychopathy and thank God for **his** wisdom, mercy and love.


(**, obviously God is not literally a gender, that's ludicrous)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I think also in addition, there is a violent sense of contradiction to the nature of consciousness and to biology itself. The violent, wrathful, monstrosity of God is something that is very much at the root of being itself. I would liken "seeing God" to an AI becoming actually self-conscious and then short-circuiting.
That is very interesting that you say that about "seeing God." I post to a lot of atheists and they are always asking me why God does not just show up on earth and prove that He exists. I often post the following passage to these atheists. Not only would we all be reduced to utter nothingness if the Essence of God showed up on earth, but it would then be obvious that God exists, and God has never wanted to be obvious, because in that case we would not have to have any faith.

"Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness. How, then, can the godly be differentiated under such circumstances from the froward?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72
 

EsonauticSage

Between extremes
That is very interesting that you say that about "seeing God." I post to a lot of atheists and they are always asking me why God does not just show up on earth and prove that He exists. I often post the following passage to these atheists. Not only would we all be reduced to utter nothingness if the Essence of God showed up on earth, but it would then be obvious that God exists, and God has never wanted to be obvious, because in that case we would not have to have any faith.

"Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness. How, then, can the godly be differentiated under such circumstances from the froward?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

There is definitely a very deep truth to that.

The Qur'an says that "there is nothing like God" (Surah 16:74, 42:11, 112:4), the Gospel of John says that "No man has ever seen God" (which is a reference to what God says to Moses in Exodus, where it also tags along "and lived").
In Hinduism, in the Upanishads specifically, the general idea is that "seeing God" in the truest sense, is itself breaking away totally from the cycle of birth and death, into Brahman itself.

On you're quote, I like how Baha'u'llah describes it as "all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness", that is some powerful imagery. Very congruent with the prior mentioned!
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
If God exists can evil also exist?

@ Koldo said:

God, to be God, has to be omnibenevolent.
If God behaves in a manner contrary to omnibenevolence, he is not omnibenevolent, and therefore not God.

Evil is detrimental to our well-being, and therefore, as a matter of logic, its existence is incompatible with the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent being.

The existence of evil is contradictory to God's utmost desire: our well-beings. And therefore, the existence of evil (that which is contrary to our well-beings) is proof that God doesn't exist

God can't be at the same time all-good by nature and not do whatever is necessary to prevent evil.

God, if he existed, would prevent all people from doing evil.

****************************************************************************************

If an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God existed, would such a God allow evil to exist in the world?

If you answer yes, please explain why you think so.
If you answer no, please explain why you don’t think so.​

Is the existence of evil in the world a reason to believe that God (as defined above) does not exist?

If you answer yes, please explain why you think so.
If you answer no, please explain why you don’t think so.​

Thanks, Trailblazer. :)

The bible says god created evil (most versions of the bible anyway) so is the bible wrong?


Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
Granted, that sort of begs the question as to why humans would put the quality of omnibenevolence onto this god-concept at all, which... well, I've got nothing. :shrug:

This is really the crux of it. As soon as you state that a deity is utterly outside human comprehension and/or beyond human concepts of morality then labelling such a being as omnibenevolent (or for that matter, simply labelling it as good) makes no sense.

The problem of evil is so specific in its application that it's incredibly easy to have a god concept that escapes it entirely. However, there are still plenty of people who insist that their deity must be omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. As such, the problem of evil persists.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If God exists can evil also exist?

@ Koldo said:

God, to be God, has to be omnibenevolent.
If God behaves in a manner contrary to omnibenevolence, he is not omnibenevolent, and therefore not God.

Evil is detrimental to our well-being, and therefore, as a matter of logic, its existence is incompatible with the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent being.

The existence of evil is contradictory to God's utmost desire: our well-beings. And therefore, the existence of evil (that which is contrary to our well-beings) is proof that God doesn't exist

God can't be at the same time all-good by nature and not do whatever is necessary to prevent evil.

God, if he existed, would prevent all people from doing evil.

****************************************************************************************

If an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God existed, would such a God allow evil to exist in the world?

If you answer yes, please explain why you think so.
If you answer no, please explain why you don’t think so.​

Is the existence of evil in the world a reason to believe that God (as defined above) does not exist?

If you answer yes, please explain why you think so.
If you answer no, please explain why you don’t think so.​

Thanks, Trailblazer. :)
According to the Bible ─

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
If God exists can evil also exist?

@ Koldo said:

If you answer yes, please explain why you think so.
If you answer no, please explain why you don’t think so.​

Is the existence of evil in the world a reason to believe that God (as defined above) does not exist?

If you answer yes, please explain why you think so.
If you answer no, please explain why you don’t think so.​

Thanks, Trailblazer. :)

Everything about God is following the word of God in this life so that you can dwell is the perfect life with him. To past God's test there must be challenges for us to get around. People call these challenges evil they are not evil to God but an opportunity for you to excel. This is why there is evil in the world. People see the things that challenge them as hard and wrong and label them evil. God see's them as opportunities for you to shine and prove your worth to be at his side.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Goodness is that which is for the cause of love and life.

Love is to care for others out of a sincere will that they care also about life.

Life is that which is of the virtues and only fosters love, peace, and joy among all.

Evil is the intention to torture and destroy innocence and life.

In this existence all of life is part of a food chain. The universe exists blind to any good, life, love, and evil. It is a brute, and savage existence that holds no natural, moral law in its its makings. Therefore God is not evident, and for all intense purposes is highly ineffective in establishing justice in the universe. God being Omni everything is incapable of making a moral stand in an inept creation.

Words don't satisfy justice, only law, and action can satisfy justice. God does not exist because there is no law or justice other than what humans make.

An omnipotent God would able rid all natural evils, and all evils. Evil is meaningless other then the damage it creates. Evil would be conquered if God were omnipotent. Evil would hold no power.
 

chinu

chinu
If God exists can evil also exist?

@ Koldo said:

God, to be God, has to be omnibenevolent.
If God behaves in a manner contrary to omnibenevolence, he is not omnibenevolent, and therefore not God.
Actually, there's nothing good and bad in this world because there's NOTHING good or bad which can be done to soul.
The only problem is that we are assuming ourself as body, rather than soul.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
If an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God existed, would such a God allow evil to exist in the world?

If we also include the assumption that this God is the source of all things, then no: the God you describe would not allow evil to exist.
If you answer yes, please explain why you think so.
If you answer no, please explain why you don’t think so.
Well, where would the evil have come from?

- did God deliberately put it there? Then he's not omnibenevolent.
- did God not foresee that evil would inadvertently arise in his creation? Then he's not omniscient.
- did God foresee the evil, not want it, but couldn't prevent it? The he's not omnipotent.

Is the existence of evil in the world a reason to believe that God (as defined above) does not exist?

If you answer yes, please explain why you think so.
If you answer no, please explain why you don’t think so.
It's certainly reason to reject that particular belief system, but it could be reconciled with other possibilities.

For instance, maybe this omnimax God exists, but other equally powerful but not omnibenevolent gods also exist.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
God does not owe it to you to grant you anything, just because God is omnipotent.

I have never said God owes no one anything. What I have said is that said is that suffering is unnecessary to learn anything since knowledge can be granted with omnipotence.

It is just tough toenails that you and those who think like you do not like suffering and you believe God owes everyone a suffering-free life. The joke is on you because most people who really suffer never complain about it, because they understand that it is just part of living, and they know it makes them a better person in the end.

You don't go out much, do you? :D
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
The bible says god created evil (most versions of the bible anyway) so is the bible wrong?


Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.


When I discovered this verse many years ago, it took me a while to wrap my head around it. It finally dawned on me that , to me, the verse was saying that 'God' and all creation are neutral and non binary; man is left up to his own devices to decide what is 'good' and what is 'evil'. Thankfully most of us make the same decision.
 
Top