What is your top-notch argument for the existence of God?

[TagliatelliMonster]

Be specific please.

I'm not going to list all his nonsense followed by a refutation in this thread.
Create a thread describing what you feel is his best argument and I'll be happy to participate.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Okay, truth it is.
We start here:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/truth/
Now if you read it, you figure out there is no the truth and what truth is, is relative. That leads to this:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/relativism/
Cognitive Relativism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

From the last link:


Since I am a hard core cognitive relativist, I don't do objective reality as "das Ding an sich". So in the end truth to me, is what works for me. Of course, I act like most other humans, but don't play the truth with me. The truth is no different that God. It is subjective whether you believe in the truth and/or God. And just as we play what definition of God to use and whether that makes sense, the same applies to the truth.
The truth is the same as God. It is subjective.

Good job completely dodging the actual point made.

Do you, or do you not, take the elevator or stairs to go to the bottom floor of a skyscraper, or do you jump down instead?

Why?


=> your answer will be a direct contradiction of what you said.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I think you are driven by faith and dogmatism just like a religious dogmatic

Sure, I'm "dogmatic". Dogmatic about requiring arguments to be reasonable and rational and not infested with logical fallacies.

Your sentences are exactly the same, only from another side of the fence.

Yes. The rational side.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Good job completely dodging the actual point made.

Do you, or do you not, take the elevator or stairs to go to the bottom floor of a skyscraper, or do you jump down instead?

Why?


=> your answer will be a direct contradiction of what you said.

Because that is what I believe in.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Because that is what I believe in.

Why?

 

[Koldo]

Well, clearly existence as we experience and perceive it DOES require an organized expression of energy. What existence may or may not be or require beyond that is simply a moot issue, because we can never know.

But the thing is: If existence itself doesn't require any sort of order, then the order we perceive is not particularly special. It is just one way for things to exist, rather than the way.

 

[Prim969]

Considering how the vast majority of cultures all have their own unique religions and unique (and mutually exclusive) gods, it seems quite obvious that inventing religions is what humans do. And it ties into psychology: fear of death and a tendency to engage in type 1&2 cognition errors (which accounts for superstition).

No, people in power did not invent religion for the purpose power happily use religions to control the masses.

Tagliatelle you say ( considering how the vast majority of cultures all have their own unique religions and unique and exclusive gods. It seems quite obvious that inventing religions is what people do ) Yes but the issue isn’t about how the different ancient cultures and the uniqueness of their religions nor how they may have been manipulated. The reality is they all recognised a supreme God or supreme Beings from a different realm that guided the well being of their cultures all the way up to the present day. As to the prospect of fear and death clouding their faculties. Well the ancients did prepare and think apon that very much. We only have to look apon the ways China the Japanese the Mayan and the Egyptians prepared for the afterlife I name just a few. Is our outlook on death and the unknown any more superior or advanced you think? So whatever ever rules of psychology you use they simply cannot explain away the reality that all cultures universally believed in a higher realm and a supreme power. You say that people in power did not invent religion. Yes and No. but the underlying reality of religionis this. That the history of humanity has always believed in and worshiped a supreme spiritual power it’s not something that the ancients just simply imagined it was a reality. You continue to go on saying that power uses religion in controlling the masses. Well Tagliatelle take your pick. Judges Kings popes, queens, political parties, dictatorships chiffons chief’s, emperors etc have done so . So what’s your point. It doesn’t change the FACT that of our histories are steeped in the memory of a Divine power as with most of the world today.

 

[Koldo]

Tagliatelle you say ( considering how the vast majority of cultures all have their own unique religions and unique and exclusive gods. It seems quite obvious that inventing religions is what people do ) Yes but the issue isn’t about how the different ancient cultures and the uniqueness of their religions nor how they may have been manipulated. The reality is they all recognised a supreme God or supreme Beings from a different realm that guided the well being of their cultures all the way up to the present day. As to the prospect of fear and death clouding their faculties. Well the ancients did prepare and think apon that very much. We only have to look apon the ways China the Japanese the Mayan and the Egyptians prepared for the afterlife I name just a few. Is our outlook on death and the unknown any more superior or advanced you think? So whatever ever rules of psychology you use they simply cannot explain away the reality that all cultures universally believed in a higher realm and a supreme power. You say that people in power did not invent religion. Yes and No. but the underlying reality of religionis this. That the history of humanity has always believed in and worshiped a supreme spiritual power it’s not something that the ancients just simply imagined it was a reality. You continue to go on saying that power uses religion in controlling the masses. Well Tagliatelle take your pick. Judges Kings popes, queens, political parties, dictatorships chiffons chief’s, emperors etc have done so . So what’s your point. It doesn’t change the FACT that of our histories are steeped in the memory of a Divine power as with most of the world today.

Which doesn't entail anything in particular about whether this supreme divine power exists.

 

[Thief]

It's kind of hard to discuss evidence for undetectable entities, as undetectable entities can't have any supporting evidence by virtue of being undetectable. The undetectable doesn't leave evidence behind.

At least some manifestation and effects are required for supporting evidence to be able to exist.

science would have you believe in dark energy and dark matter

such things cannot be detected

but science is SURE such things exist

when believing in a Creator.....you have His creation to consider
as it would be a reflection of the Creator

the dark stuff is a reflection of …….what?
you believe cause someone told you so?

 

[PureX]

But the thing is: If existence itself doesn't require any sort of order, then the order we perceive is not particularly special. It is just one way for things to exist, rather than the way.

And if elephants were pink, instead of gray, they would be pink instead of gray. But all the elephants that we know about, are gray. And that is how it is.

We do not exist in chaos. Nothing we know to exist, exists in chaos. Logically, nothing can exist in chaos, but chaos. This is a tautology that we cannot deny without denying logic, itself. So the argument you seem to be trying to pose, is self-negating. Existence requires order to achieve ANY DEGREE of complexity. And anything else is abject chaos. Which logically cannot then be deemed a form of "existence".

 

[Koldo]

And if elephants were pink, instead of gray, they would be pink instead of gray. But all the elephants that we know about, are gray. And that is how it is.

We do not exist in chaos. Nothing we know to exist, exists in chaos. Logically, nothing can exist in chaos, but chaos. This is a tautology that we cannot deny without denying logic, itself. So the argument you seem to be trying to pose, is self-negating. Existence requires order to achieve ANY DEGREE of complexity. Anything else is abject chaos. Which logically cannot then be deemed a form of "existence".

Define the boundaries of what you mean by order.

 

[PureX]

Define the boundaries of what you mean by order.

Pattern/organization resulting from the imposition of limitation.

 

[PureX]

science would have you believe in dark energy and dark matter

such things cannot be detected

but science is SURE such things exist

when believing in a Creator.....you have His creation to consider
as it would be a reflection of the Creator

the dark stuff is a reflection of …….what?
you believe cause someone told you so?

It's a reflection of mathematical principals that DO apply to other, 'known' phenomena. But yes, they are the result of speculation, and 'belief'; same as "God".

 

[Prim969]

Which doesn't entail anything in particular about whether this supreme divine power exists.

Koldo it may not entail anything in particular about the Divine power to you. But our histories and cultures are what they are. A majority of the world has no problem with that reality.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The reality is they all recognised a supreme God or supreme Beings from a different realm that guided the well being of their cultures all the way up to the present day.

It's called anthropomorfism.

As to the prospect of fear and death clouding their faculties. Well the ancients did prepare and think apon that very much. We only have to look apon the ways China the Japanese the Mayan and the Egyptians prepared for the afterlife I name just a few. Is our outlook on death and the unknown any more superior or advanced you think?

Yes, as it deals with evidence instead of superstition.

So whatever ever rules of psychology you use they simply cannot explain away the reality that all cultures universally believed in a higher realm and a supreme power

Sure they can.
- type 1&2 cognition errors lead to superstition (this is even seen in pidgeons)
- animals, as a surviving mechanism, also tend to infuse agency in seemingly random events with themselves as the target of said agent, also as a result of type 1&2 cognition errors. As said by another poster: there's a noise in the bushes. Is it just the wind or a dangerous predator? Those who assume a predator and run, will live to see another day in case it is actually a predator.
- human tendency of anthropomorfism.

All those combined, form the perfect breeding ground for inventing gods and similar invisible or mythical entities.

When combining those, we actually expect cultures to have their unique and mutually exclusive religions and gods. This explanation wouldn't be able to deal with two independent cultures coming up with the exact same religion and the exact same god independently from one another. Which incidently, is exactly what I would expect if there is a "one true religion" and a "true god".

There's a reason why Columbus and his people had to explain to the natives in south america who Jesus, Jawhe etc were.

You say that people in power did not invent religion. Yes and No. but the underlying reality of religionis this. That the history of humanity has always believed in and worshiped a supreme spiritual power

Because animals' psychology makes them prone to superstition and infusing agency in random natural events. Humans on top of that, with their expanded cognitive abilities, also tend to athropomorfize these agents.

it’s not something that the ancients just simply imagined it was a reality.

You can't possibly believe this, considering the extreme number of mutually exclusive religions and gods. They can't all be right by definition (they can all be wrong though). At best, only 1 is correct. All the others, by necessity, must thus have been invented and imagined.

You continue to go on saying that power uses religion in controlling the masses. Well Tagliatelle take your pick. Judges Kings popes, queens, political parties, dictatorships chiffons chief’s, emperors etc have done so . So what’s your point

No particular point, other then just my contribution to the cliché point that people in power invented religion to control the masses.

It doesn’t change the FACT that of our histories are steeped in the memory of a Divine power as with most of the world today.

Nore does it change the fact that inventing gods is a thing humans obviously do.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

science would have you believe in dark energy and dark matter

False.

Dark matter / energy are placeholder names for very real and very measureable and very detectable phenomenon / effects, of which the source is not understand.

Ask a scientist what dark matter / energy is and they'll answer with "we don't know... but their measureable effect is real".

Whatever dark matter / energy actually is, they are things with measureable and detectable effects and manifestations.

such things cannot be detected

Obviously false. The very fact that they felt the need to come up with the labels, already is a giveaway that there is a detectable thing that requires a name.

but science is SURE such things exist

Yep. Because there is detectable manifestation / effect. Things exist that are causing these effects / manifestations. We just don't know what those things are. And in order to not just having to refer to them as "unknown things", the came up with the labels of dark matter (to account for the unknown source of measureable gravitational forces) and dark energy (to account for the unknown force that makes the universe expand).

when believing in a Creator.....you have His creation to consider
as it would be a reflection of the Creator

And if you don't have that a priori belief, then you don't.

the dark stuff is a reflection of …….what?

It's a place holder label for the unknown source of measureable manifestations / effects.

you believe cause someone told you so?

No. Because it's measureable.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It's a reflection of mathematical principals that DO apply to other, 'known' phenomena. But yes, they are the result of speculation, and 'belief'; same as "God".

No.

They are the result of detectable and measureable forces of which the source is unknown at this point.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Koldo it may not entail anything in particular about the Divine power to you. But our histories and cultures are what they are. A majority of the world has no problem with that reality.

What the majority of the world merely believes, is of no consequence to what is actually true.

The fact is that human (and animal) psychology reasonably accounts for the existance of many mutually exclusive religions and gods.

When you have an explanation that is perfectly capable of accounting for a given phenomenon, there is no need to invoke "magic" instead.

And I'ld add to that, even if we did not have such explanation - it's never reasonable to invoke "magic" anyway.

Even only the fact that the majority of, if not all, cultures each have their own unique religion with unique god(s), is already evidence enough for me that inventing religious and gods is a thing that humans do.

If there was a "one true god" and a "one true religion", then I would expect to find AT LEAST 2 independent cultures that stumbled upon this one true religion / god independently from one another.

But the fact is that this never happens.

 

[Thief]

Dark matter / energy are placeholder names for very real and very measureable and very detectable phenomenon / effects, of which the source is not understand.

nay

science by way of equation decided there is more to the universe
more than we can detect

the numbers point that way

but the numbers produce a puzzle with no resolve

the dark stuff cannot be stuffed into an experiment
no predictable results
no detection devices
just numbers pointing into the dark

 

[Thief]

Complexity of life forms has been explained through evolutionary biology - no gods required.

so God the Almighty isn't capable of setting chemistry in motion
and then settle back to see what happens....????