The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

[firedragon]

I hope you will understand that one of the reasons I did not answer you right away is because I really didn't understand what you meant when you asked or mentioned what I contend. So I wonder what you think about the Athanasian Creed, because I'm not sure what you mean when you say 1) that you don't believe in the Trinity, and then 2) you say *I* contend that the Athanasian creed is not biblical. Like you, I don't believe that God is a Trinity. If you would like to discuss more about that perhaps we can, hopefully in a peaceful way.
Many things are said as interpretations about Jesus and the Bible that I don't agree with. Often people use scripture to bolster their contention. Again, I hope you understand that I don't always agree with these things, to be delineated perhaps later on.
For example, in the United States there is the Supreme Court. There are laws. Yet the interpretation or application of those laws can differ among the various justices. I hope that helps somewhat to explain.

Your comment just simply says "the athanasian creed is not biblical" and answers the topic of this thread. So that's what I meant.

This is your comment.

"I do not argue against the deity of Christ. I do not equate him, however, with his God and Father.
John 20:17 - Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

 

[SLPCCC]

Yes, but even the concept is not there. The pauline/johannine tradition is subordinationism and the Jesus of synoptic tradition was no prehuman cocreator.

Can you back up your claim using scripture, the scholarly community, and first-century Christian writings?

 

[YoursTrue]

Your comment just simply says "the athanasian creed is not biblical" and answers the topic of this thread. So that's what I meant.

This is your comment.

"I do not argue against the deity of Christ. I do not equate him, however, with his God and Father.
John 20:17 - Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Thank you. I do not equate God as being a Trinity, if that helps to further explain my position on the matter. Again people's opinions vary.

 

[firedragon]

Thank you. I do not equate God as being a Trinity, if that helps to further explain my position on the matter. Again people's opinions vary.

I was only addressing the OP brother, and the name of this thread. The topic. It was about the Bible, and the Athanasian creed so your post was one of the few that was relevant to the topic. Thats why I responded to it with what I said.

So hope you understand that I didn't take your post as your opinion or what you do not equate God as being. It was a direct quote from the Bible which is relevant.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Yes, but even the concept is not there. The pauline/johannine tradition is subordinationism and the Jesus of synoptic tradition was no prehuman cocreator.

Can you back up your claim using scripture, the scholarly community, and first-century Christian writings?

I can but I need some time...

 

[YoursTrue]

I was only addressing the OP brother, and the name of this thread. The topic. It was about the Bible, and the Athanasian creed so your post was one of the few that was relevant to the topic. Thats why I responded to it with what I said.

So hope you understand that I didn't take your post as your opinion or what you do not equate God as being. It was a direct quote from the Bible which is relevant.

I just want to say that while many use scripture to prove their point, I simply do not see at all that any scripture or combination of scriptures, when well-studied and thought out, proves that God is a trinity. And now I am reading that it is thought by scholars that it is possible that Athanasius never wrote the creed but it was developed later.
*By the term trinity here, I mean that God is three persons yet one God. And, of course, each person equal to the other. No, doesn't make sense to me according to scripture. I know there are other definitions of trinity, but I am going (I think) by the most popular one.

 

[SLPCCC]

I do not argue against the deity of Christ. I do not equate him, however, with his God and Father.
John 20:17 - Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

The scriptures cannot be contradicting themselves. The Father and the Son are two different persons. We can agree on that.

1 Corinthians 15:28 says:

• “When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.”

Jesus has always been and will always be under the authority of the Father. Before he was the Word. He was under the authority of the Father as the "Word". Throughout Scripture, we read how the Father directs the Son (1 Corinthians 11:3). That is why Jesus calls the Father “God” when He is in His Divine Nature. This would be like your son calling you “the Man of the House”. When your son calls you “the Man”, he does not mean to imply that he is less human than you, does he? Of course not! So, it is with Jesus calling the Father “My God”. Jesus has always been and will always be under the authority of the Father.

At the same time, Jesus is also called God.

• At Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he [Jehovah] says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

• John 20: 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

• Isaiah 9:6 "For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace,"

• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So reasoning we have to take that Jesus is under God the Father but is also God the Son. But there cannot be two Gods because that would be polytheism. And the scriptures cannot be contradicting each other; therefore, they must be both the same in nature but not the same in persons, both God but one the Father and the other the son.

 

[SLPCCC]

I just want to say that while many use scripture to prove their point, I simply do not see at all that any scripture or combination of scriptures, when well-studied and thought out, proves that God is a trinity.

I think this is a 3 part question.

1. Is Jesus called God in the bible? If he is, what is this actually saying?
2. Is the Holy Spirit a person? If he is, is he too called God?
3. Are there inference that can be drawn from?

The first question must be answered first because if Jesus is not called God than there is no use searching the scripture as to why and the whole thing falls on its face. If Jesus is called God than the second question must be answered. If both 1 and 2 are true, then he third can be looked at.

And now I am reading that it is thought by scholars that it is possible that Athanasius never wrote the creed but it was developed later.

Those that don't believe in the Trinity say that it is an invention of Athanasius. That's a lie.

*By the term trinity here, I mean that God is three persons yet one God. And, of course, each person equal to the other. No, doesn't make sense to me according to scripture. I know there are other definitions of trinity, but I am going (I think) by the most popular one.

There is only one definition. The others are strawman, intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

 

[YoursTrue]

The scriptures cannot be contradicting themselves. The Father and the Son are two different persons. We can agree on that.

1 Corinthians 15:28 says:

• “When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.”

Jesus has always been and will always be under the authority of the Father. Before he was the Word. He was under the authority of the Father as the "Word". Throughout Scripture, we read how the Father directs the Son (1 Corinthians 11:3). That is why Jesus calls the Father “God” when He is in His Divine Nature. This would be like your son calling you “the Man of the House”. When your son calls you “the Man”, he does not mean to imply that he is less human than you, does he? Of course not! So, it is with Jesus calling the Father “My God”. Jesus has always been and will always be under the authority of the Father.

At the same time, Jesus is also called God.

• At Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he [Jehovah] says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

• John 20: 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

• Isaiah 9:6 "For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace,"

• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So reasoning we have to take that Jesus is under God the Father but is also God the Son. But there cannot be two Gods because that would be polytheism. And the scriptures cannot be contradicting each other; therefore, they must be both the same in nature but not the same in persons, both God but one the Father and the other the son.

From what I detect you are saying, they are not (co)equals. One person called God is under the authority of the Father. To me (maybe not to you) this does not mean polytheism. It means that the term God can be, and is applied within the boundaries of the word.

 

[YoursTrue]

I think this is a 3 part question.

1. Is Jesus called God in the bible? If he is, what is this actually saying?
2. Is the Holy Spirit a person? If he is, is he too called God?
3. Are there inference that can be drawn from?

The first question must be answered first because if Jesus is not called God than there is no use searching the scripture as to why and the whole thing falls on its face. If Jesus is called God than the second question must be answered. If both 1 and 2 are true, then he third can be looked at.



Those that don't believe in the Trinity say that it is an invention of Athanasius. That's a lie.

....

There are quite a few scholars that have come to realize Athanasias likely did not compose the creed.
Although his theological stand is embedded in the creed, it is now said by many that likely he was not its author.
The Athanasian Creed by R.C. Sproul
If you believe that God is a trinity, that is your choice.
I do not believe God is a Trinity. The creed states at one point: "all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons." I do not believe, based on the scriptures, that all three persons are coeternal and coequal and that we must worship all three persons as one God in three persons. Jesus said the Father is greater than he is. That is a settling factor as far as I am concerned. He also told his disciples to pray to the Father in heaven. Matthew 6:9 - "This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name"

 

[firedragon]

I just want to say that while many use scripture to prove their point, I simply do not see at all that any scripture or combination of scriptures, when well-studied and thought out, proves that God is a trinity. And now I am reading that it is thought by scholars that it is possible that Athanasius never wrote the creed but it was developed later.
*By the term trinity here, I mean that God is three persons yet one God. And, of course, each person equal to the other. No, doesn't make sense to me according to scripture. I know there are other definitions of trinity, but I am going (I think) by the most popular one.

Of course.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I can but I need some time...

Here, I'll help:
Jesus said at Matthew 28:18, that he was “given” all authority, and He said this after He was resurrected....it cannot be claimed that Jesus was still 'limited by human nature.' (If he was God, why would he need anything to be given him?)

Jesus' own words (Again) at John 17:3 (Who is "the Only True God"? Did Jesus include Himself?). This would agree w/ Deuteronomy 6:4.

Jesus' own words (Again!) at Mark 10:18....

American Standard Version
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, even God.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? None is good but one, that is God.

Darby Bible Translation
But Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? no one is good but one, [that is] God.

English Revised Version
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, even God.

Webster's Bible Translation
And Jesus said to him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good, but one, that is God.

Weymouth New Testament
"Why do you call me good?" asked Jesus in reply; "there is no one truly good except One--that is, God.

World English Bible
Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except one--God.

Young's Literal Translation
And Jesus said to him, 'Why me dost thou call good? no one is good except One -- God;

(If there is a Trinity, why did Jesus not say "the Father," here? I mean, he said "one, (that is) God". If the Trinity is truth, then saying "God" would include him.)

Linked to this, is Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 8:5-6.... A clear distinction is made between Who is the "one God" and who is the "one Lord."

It really does go on, and on, and on!

And saying 'Jesus has always been subordinate to the Father,' is against the Athanasian Creed. That is "subordinationism," a heresy.-- Subordinationism - Wikipedia

 

[SLPCCC]

From what I detect you are saying, they are not (co)equals. One person called God is under the authority of the Father. To me (maybe not to you) this does not mean polytheism. It means that the term God can be, and is applied within the boundaries of the word.

No, that is not what I'm saying. You can have a king who is greater than his subjects. But this does not mean that the King is a greater human. They are both human, the same. Think of a father and son. The son subjects himself to his father but that doesn't mean that the son is less human. Although Jesus subjects himself to the father, it doesn't make him a less of God. They are both the same in Being but they are not two Gods. The bible says as you know there is only one God. Jesus and the Father is one God. Note the following scriptures:

1) God and Jesus are both Saviours

• Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour. (Notice that it says there is no saviour but God)
• Titus 3:6 which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

2) God and Jesus are both called Lord or Lords

• Deut 10:17 For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the terrible, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.
• Rev 19: 16 And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

3) God and Jesus are called the Alpha and the Omega and the first and the last

• Isaiah 44:6 “I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me, there is no God”
• Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
• Rev 22: 12, 13, 20 "Look! I'm coming soon. . . I am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. . . The one who bears witness to these things says, "Yes, I'm coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! Also see Rev 1:8; 21:6

4) They are both called God and mighty God with a capital "G"

• At Isaiah 10: 21 A remnant shall return, [even] the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. Also see Jeremiah 32:18 and Zephaniah 3:17)
• Isaiah 9:6 A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace,"

5) At Rev 7-8 Jesus is called Almighty (We know this is Jesus because he was pierced and is coming)

• Rev: 7-8 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen. I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

6) They both are said to have created all things

• Col 1:16, 17 - For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
• Isaiah, 44:24, "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone.'"

7) Jesus is called God by Thomas, Peter, Paul, and John 1:1

• John 20: 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"
• Titus 2:13 “Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Chris
• 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
• 2 Peter 1: 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

8) Jesus' name means "With us is God"

• Matt 1: 23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us.

9) The singular "name" is used instead of the plural "names" indicating one.

• Matt 28: 19, 20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

10) When Jesus uses "I Am" the Jews know what he means and want to kill him.

• John 8:58,59 - Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

11) God calls Jesus God

• Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he [Jehovah] says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

12) Jesus says that he will raise his body from the dead

• John 2: 19-22 - Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." ...he was speaking about the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this...
• John 10:17-18; 2:19 “…I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.…Destroy this temple, and in three days I [Jesus] will raise it up.”

13) Jesus says if you see him, you see the father

• John 14: 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?

All the scriptures above show they are equal. All these scriptures and more agree with:

1. The scholars who say that not only did Jesus claimed to be God but that the Christian believe he was God.
2. The early first Christian writers.
3. Athanasius' arguments

Scriptures that non-trinitarian used like Jesus saying that the "father is greater" or that "only God is good" and others can be explained away. Those are straw man arguments used by the JWs leaders.

 

[SLPCCC]

Jesus' own words (Again!) at Mark 10:18....

American Standard Version
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, even God.

• MARK 10:17-18 “And as He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and began asking Him, ‘Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.’ ”

Are you then saying that Jesus is saying that he is not good? Nowhere in this passage does Jesus imply that He is not good. On the contrary, according to the context, Jesus was helping the rich ruler recognize that the attribute of “goodness” which the ruler had applied to Him was a quality that only God possesses. Thus, Jesus was forcing the ruler to recognize that either He is “good” and is, therefore, God, or He is imperfect and is therefore only a man.

John 14: 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?

 

[SLPCCC]

Here, I'll help:
Jesus said Matthew 28:18, after He was resurrected....it cannot be claimed that Jesus was still 'limited by human nature.'

Jesus' own words (Again) at John 17:3 (Who is "the Only True God"? Did Jesus include Himself?). This would agree w/ Deuteronomy 6:4.

At Luke 2:51 We read that Christ was in “subjection” to Mary and Joseph. Was Christ inferior to them because He was in “subjection” to them? Of course not! While it is true that a functional subordination or functional hierarchy exists among the Persons of the Triune God, they are still equal in their Divine nature. So Jesus is equal to God the Father in His Divine Being (John 10:30). Yet, once everything is subdued under Him at 1 Corinthians 15:28, He continues His submission to the Father as a picture of the unity of the Godhead.

1 Corinthians 11:3 states that “the man is the head of a woman.” Are women inferior or less human than men simply because husbands are to be in authority over their wives? No! Just as a woman is fully human even though she submits to her husband, so Jesus is fully God even though He submits to the will of His Father God. The functional subordination that exists among the persons of the Trinity does not in any way imply that Jesus is inferior to the Father or any less God than the Father is God.

 

[YoursTrue]

• MARK 10:17-18 “And as He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and began asking Him, ‘Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.’ ”

Are you then saying that Jesus is saying that he is not good? Nowhere in this passage does Jesus imply that He is not good. On the contrary, according to the context, Jesus was helping the rich ruler recognize that the attribute of “goodness” which the ruler had applied to Him was a quality that only God possesses. Thus, Jesus was forcing the ruler to recognize that either He is “good” and is, therefore, God, or He is imperfect and is therefore only a man.

John 14: 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?

He learned goodness from his Father. As a compliant, loving and willing Son, he understood that. There are so many things to discuss about the Athanasian creed, now I learn the creed was not in service apparently for hundreds of years after Jesus died and was resurrected. There are other "sons of God," some of them did not understand their position or relationship. Jesus did. You may take it as you will. I have decided that Jesus is not part of a Trinity, he is not "God" in the sense that trinitarians take it to mean. As we get to know Jesus, we get to know his Father.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, that is not what I'm saying. You can have a king who is greater than his subjects. But this does not mean that the King is a greater human. They are both human, the same. Think of a father and son. The son subjects himself to his father but that doesn't mean that the son is less human. Although Jesus subjects himself to the father, it doesn't make him a less of God. They are both the same in Being but they are not two Gods. The bible says as you know there is only one God. Jesus and the Father is one God. Note the following scriptures:

1) God and Jesus are both Saviours

• Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour. (Notice that it says there is no saviour but God)
• Titus 3:6 which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

2) God and Jesus are both called Lord or Lords

• Deut 10:17 For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the terrible, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.
• Rev 19: 16 And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

3) God and Jesus are called the Alpha and the Omega and the first and the last

• Isaiah 44:6 “I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me, there is no God”
• Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
• Rev 22: 12, 13, 20 "Look! I'm coming soon. . . I am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. . . The one who bears witness to these things says, "Yes, I'm coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! Also see Rev 1:8; 21:6

4) They are both called God and mighty God with a capital "G"

• At Isaiah 10: 21 A remnant shall return, [even] the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. Also see Jeremiah 32:18 and Zephaniah 3:17)
• Isaiah 9:6 A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace,"

5) At Rev 7-8 Jesus is called Almighty (We know this is Jesus because he was pierced and is coming)

• Rev: 7-8 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen. I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

6) They both are said to have created all things

• Col 1:16, 17 - For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
• Isaiah, 44:24, "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone.'"

7) Jesus is called God by Thomas, Peter, Paul, and John 1:1

• John 20: 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"
• Titus 2:13 “Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Chris
• 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
• 2 Peter 1: 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

8) Jesus' name means "With us is God"

• Matt 1: 23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us.

9) The singular "name" is used instead of the plural "names" indicating one.

• Matt 28: 19, 20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

10) When Jesus uses "I Am" the Jews know what he means and want to kill him.

• John 8:58,59 - Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

11) God calls Jesus God

• Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he [Jehovah] says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

12) Jesus says that he will raise his body from the dead

• John 2: 19-22 - Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." ...he was speaking about the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this...
• John 10:17-18; 2:19 “…I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.…Destroy this temple, and in three days I [Jesus] will raise it up.”

13) Jesus says if you see him, you see the father

• John 14: 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?

All the scriptures above show they are equal. All these scriptures and more agree with:

1. The scholars who say that not only did Jesus claimed to be God but that the Christian believe he was God.
2. The early first Christian writers.
3. Athanasius' arguments

Scriptures that non-trinitarian used like Jesus saying that the "father is greater" or that "only God is good" and others can be explained away. Those are straw man arguments used by the JWs leaders.

I see and believe fully that the Trinity + the Athanasian creed does not make sense. OK, have a nice day. Bye for now...

 

[YoursTrue]

At Luke 2:51 We read that Christ was in “subjection” to Mary and Joseph. Was Christ inferior to them because He was in “subjection” to them? Of course not! While it is true that a functional subordination or functional hierarchy exists among the Persons of the Triune God, they are still equal in their Divine nature. So Jesus is equal to God the Father in His Divine Being (John 10:30). Yet, once everything is subdued under Him at 1 Corinthians 15:28, He continues His submission to the Father as a picture of the unity of the Godhead.

1 Corinthians 11:3 states that “the man is the head of a woman.” Are women inferior or less human than men simply because husbands are to be in authority over their wives? No! Just as a woman is fully human even though she submits to her husband, so Jesus is fully God even though He submits to the will of His Father God. The functional subordination that exists among the persons of the Trinity does not in any way imply that Jesus is inferior to the Father or any less God than the Father is God.

"functional subordination." Jesus was, you say, "functionally subordinate" to the Father but was still equal to him as God? He did not grab authority, he knew who was greater than he was. He used thinking matter and devotion to his heavenly Father.
Now you say the wife is "functionally subordinate" to the husband but equal in heading up the household because they are both humans? Hmmm...A wife may grab authority, or circumstances (such as sick husband) may press her to take a leading role in the household, but a woman who is God-fearing understands that she is to be in subjection to her husband. Even though they are both human. A son of God is still that; a son of God.

 

[YoursTrue]

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No, that is not what I'm saying. You can have a king who is greater than his subjects. But this does not mean that the King is a greater human. They are both human, the same. Think of a father and son. The son subjects himself to his father but that doesn't mean that the son is less human. Although Jesus subjects himself to the father, it doesn't make him a less of God. They are both the same in Being but they are not two Gods. The bible says as you know there is only one God. Jesus and the Father is one God. Note the following scriptures:

1) God and Jesus are both Saviours

• Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour. (Notice that it says there is no saviour but God)
• Titus 3:6 which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

2) God and Jesus are both called Lord or Lords

• Deut 10:17 For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the terrible, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.
• Rev 19: 16 And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

3) God and Jesus are called the Alpha and the Omega and the first and the last

• Isaiah 44:6 “I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me, there is no God”
• Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
• Rev 22: 12, 13, 20 "Look! I'm coming soon. . . I am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. . . The one who bears witness to these things says, "Yes, I'm coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! Also see Rev 1:8; 21:6

4) They are both called God and mighty God with a capital "G"

• At Isaiah 10: 21 A remnant shall return, [even] the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. Also see Jeremiah 32:18 and Zephaniah 3:17)
• Isaiah 9:6 A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace,"

5) At Rev 7-8 Jesus is called Almighty (We know this is Jesus because he was pierced and is coming)

• Rev: 7-8 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen. I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

6) They both are said to have created all things

• Col 1:16, 17 - For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
• Isaiah, 44:24, "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone.'"

7) Jesus is called God by Thomas, Peter, Paul, and John 1:1

• John 20: 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"
• Titus 2:13 “Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Chris
• 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
• 2 Peter 1: 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

8) Jesus' name means "With us is God"

• Matt 1: 23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us.

9) The singular "name" is used instead of the plural "names" indicating one.

• Matt 28: 19, 20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

10) When Jesus uses "I Am" the Jews know what he means and want to kill him.

• John 8:58,59 - Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

11) God calls Jesus God

• Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he [Jehovah] says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

12) Jesus says that he will raise his body from the dead

• John 2: 19-22 - Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." ...he was speaking about the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this...
• John 10:17-18; 2:19 “…I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.…Destroy this temple, and in three days I [Jesus] will raise it up.”

13) Jesus says if you see him, you see the father

• John 14: 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?

All the scriptures above show they are equal. All these scriptures and more agree with:

1. The scholars who say that not only did Jesus claimed to be God but that the Christian believe he was God.
2. The early first Christian writers.
3. Athanasius' arguments

Scriptures that non-trinitarian used like Jesus saying that the "father is greater" or that "only God is good" and others can be explained away. Those are straw man arguments used by the JWs leaders.

Right now you're using scriptures against yourself. But you may not realize it. I'm not asking you to accept what I believe. And because I handle only one thing at a time (I'm not an experienced juggler tossing things around), I am going to leave you with the following scripture, as I do hope the best for you:
Exodus 4:21 - And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go."

 

[YoursTrue]

No, that is not what I'm saying. You can have a king who is greater than his subjects. But this does not mean that the King is a greater human. They are both human, the same. Think of a father and son. The son subjects himself to his father but that doesn't mean that the son is less human. Although Jesus subjects himself to the father, it doesn't make him a less of God. They are both the same in Being but they are not two Gods. The bible says as you know there is only one God. Jesus and the Father is one God. Note the following scriptures:

1) God and Jesus are both Saviours

• Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour. (Notice that it says there is no saviour but God)
• Titus 3:6 which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

2) God and Jesus are both called Lord or Lords

• Deut 10:17 For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the terrible, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.
• Rev 19: 16 And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

3) God and Jesus are called the Alpha and the Omega and the first and the last

• Isaiah 44:6 “I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me, there is no God”
• Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
• Rev 22: 12, 13, 20 "Look! I'm coming soon. . . I am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. . . The one who bears witness to these things says, "Yes, I'm coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! Also see Rev 1:8; 21:6

4) They are both called God and mighty God with a capital "G"

• At Isaiah 10: 21 A remnant shall return, [even] the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. Also see Jeremiah 32:18 and Zephaniah 3:17)
• Isaiah 9:6 A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace,"

5) At Rev 7-8 Jesus is called Almighty (We know this is Jesus because he was pierced and is coming)

• Rev: 7-8 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen. I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

6) They both are said to have created all things

• Col 1:16, 17 - For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
• Isaiah, 44:24, "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone.'"

7) Jesus is called God by Thomas, Peter, Paul, and John 1:1

• John 20: 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"
• Titus 2:13 “Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Chris
• 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
• 2 Peter 1: 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
• John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

8) Jesus' name means "With us is God"

• Matt 1: 23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us.

9) The singular "name" is used instead of the plural "names" indicating one.

• Matt 28: 19, 20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

10) When Jesus uses "I Am" the Jews know what he means and want to kill him.

• John 8:58,59 - Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

11) God calls Jesus God

• Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he [Jehovah] says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

12) Jesus says that he will raise his body from the dead

• John 2: 19-22 - Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." ...he was speaking about the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this...
• John 10:17-18; 2:19 “…I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.…Destroy this temple, and in three days I [Jesus] will raise it up.”

13) Jesus says if you see him, you see the father

• John 14: 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?

All the scriptures above show they are equal. All these scriptures and more agree with:

1. The scholars who say that not only did Jesus claimed to be God but that the Christian believe he was God.
2. The early first Christian writers.
3. Athanasius' arguments

Scriptures that non-trinitarian used like Jesus saying that the "father is greater" or that "only God is good" and others can be explained away. Those are straw man arguments used by the JWs leaders.

By the way, do the scriptures ever call the holy spirit Lord? Since it is possible to say that the Father and the Son are called God and Lord, how about the holy spirit? Any scripture to provide that says the holy spirit is called Lord? Just wondering...