Evolution My ToE

[SkepticThinker]

Again -- the fact that written history was only developed within the past 5,000 years or so demonstrates to me that the Bible is true regarding the creation of Adam and Eve.

Why?

Meaning in that sense, human beings, different from other forms of life. On what basis would a person support scripture while saying at the same time that God did not create the heavens and the earth?

If evolution is true in its fullest form (life emerging into and from a unicell which evolved into other forms without guidance from above), then it contradicts what the Bible says. So perhaps you might endeavor to explain how a person supports the Bible AND evolution at the same time?

Where and how?

Many people accept the Bible and accept that evolution was a process created by God. The two only conflict if you take a complete literalist view of the Bible, which most people do not. Most people accept the Bible and accept that say, gravity and germ theory are real things as well. You know, as in demonstrable scientific theories, just like evolution.

Plenty of people believe the God they worship is intelligent enough to have created the process of evolution. Why don't you? Because it doesn't literally say it in the Bible?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I didn't read the Da Vinci code. I assume there are other books outside of the Bible that you accept that are probably not the original manuscripts.

It contains many historical references to buildings and artwork and places that actually exist. It speaks of people who actually exist(ed). Just like the Bible does.
So does the Iliad. But I don't see you reasoning that because it contains references to actual places, events and details from history, that it makes sense to believe that Apollo and Zeus actually exist as described in it. Why is that?

As far as holy spirit goes, I don't speak for it. I believe and accept that the books were preserved for the many years they have been by "holy spirit." We DO know that the Catholic church for a lonnggg time did not want people to even read the Bible, putting them under severe penalty for differing with their viewpoint.

Why do you believe the "books were preserved for many years .. by the 'holy spirit'" when we're in the middle of a discussion about how there are no original copies??
Can you explain how your belief makes sense in light of that?

 

[metis]

If evolution is true in its fullest form (life emerging into and from a unicell which evolved into other forms without guidance from above), then it contradicts what the Bible says.

As has been explained many times, that's true only for those who are literalists and believe in biblical inerrancy. Most Christian theologians are neither of those.

 

[YoursTrue]

As has been explained many times, that's true only for those who are literalists and believe in biblical inerrancy. Most Christian theologians are neither of those.

Still no real explanation as to how someone says he believes in the Bible as the "Word of God," yet also thinks God did not begin life on the earth, as well as create Adam and Eve and the "heavens and the earth."

 

[YoursTrue]

As has been explained many times, that's true only for those who are literalists and believe in biblical inerrancy. Most Christian theologians are neither of those.

I'll also repeat, if someone believes life came about without divine guidance then he is denying what the Bible says. There's not two ways about it. Jesus said that about belief. I figure you know what Jesus said about conflicting beliefs. But perhaps you believe Jesus was under a delusion as well. Thanks for expressing your opinion. Perhaps you also know the scriptures as to God's interaction with Israel if they veered off the prescribed course of worship.

 

[YoursTrue]

It contains many historical references to buildings and artwork and places that actually exist. It speaks of people who actually exist(ed). Just like the Bible does.
So does the Iliad. But I don't see you reasoning that because it contains references to actual places, events and details from history, that it makes sense to believe that Apollo and Zeus actually exist as described in it. Why is that?



Why do you believe the "books were preserved for many years .. by the 'holy spirit'" when we're in the middle of a discussion about how there are no original copies??
Can you explain how your belief makes sense in light of that?

Yes, glad you asked, because I've been researching some things about ancient Babylon. Again, the Bible goes into great detail about Babylon, what happened, and the relationship of Israel, God Almighty, and interraction with Babylon. And here is what one source says about references regarding Babylon:
"The city owes its fame (or infamy) to the many references the Bible makes to it; all of which are unfavourable." And later goes on to say, "Whatever early role the city played in the ancient world is lost to modern-day scholars because the water level in the region has risen steadily over the centuries and the ruins of Old Babylon have become inaccessible."
(Records -- true or not, depending on which politician you believe -- were LOST in many cases about many civilizations. I'm sure you know that. But the BIBLE continued being written and basically unchanged for millenia.)
Babylon

 

[metis]

I'll also repeat, if someone believes life came about without divine guidance then he is denying what the Bible says.

What do you think I've been saying about that all along???

But perhaps you believe Jesus was under a delusion as well.

Unbelievable, and thoroughly disgusting that you continue to misportray what I have been saying all along? Since when is "bearing false witness", as you are continuing to do via my beliefs, being in any way Christian? Have you no shame whatsoever?

Perhaps you also know the scriptures as to God's interaction with Israel if they veered off the prescribed course of worship.

Since I taught at a synagogue for roughly 12 years, ya.

Will you kindly stop misrepresenting my beliefs!

 

[dad]

If you think you can just say whatever crazy thing you want and that you don't have to back it up because you think "it's not science," you're more far gone that I could have ever thought.

If you think you can just say whatever crazy thing you want and that you don't have to back it up because you think "it's science," you're more far gone that I could have ever thought.

Science must have support.

I'm interested in discovering true things about the world we live in and discarding false beliefs.

Your words betray that as false.

 

[Astrophile]

Yes, glad you asked, because I've been researching some things about ancient Babylon. Again, the Bible goes into great detail about Babylon, what happened, and the relationship of Israel, God Almighty, and interraction with Babylon. And here is what one source says about references regarding Babylon:
"The city owes its fame (or infamy) to the many references the Bible makes to it; all of which are unfavourable." And later goes on to say, "Whatever early role the city played in the ancient world is lost to modern-day scholars because the water level in the region has risen steadily over the centuries and the ruins of Old Babylon have become inaccessible."
(Records -- true or not, depending on which politician you believe -- were LOST in many cases about many civilizations. I'm sure you know that. But the BIBLE continued being written and basically unchanged for millenia.)
Babylon

Thank-you for your interesting post. However, you forgot to quote the sentences from your link 'Under Persian rule, Babylon flourished as a center of art and education. Cyrus and his successors held the city in great regard'.

Babylon is also of interest because of its astronomical tradition, which extends back to the 3rd millennium BC, almost literally to before the Flood. Victor Clube and Bill Napier, in The Cosmic Winter (p. 29) say, 'from the seventh century [BC] onwards, we find Persians, Jews and Greeks alike, all apparently drawn to Babylon by the magnet of "Chaldean" science, sparking off something akin to a renaissance in the cosmopolitan atmosphere of easy communication and competition'. In the light of this statement, the picture in Job 26:7 (and in the cosmology of the Greek philosopher Anaximander) of the Earth being suspended motionless in infinite space may be drawn from Babylonian astronomy.

 

[YoursTrue]

Thank-you for your interesting post. However, you forgot to quote the sentences from your link 'Under Persian rule, Babylon flourished as a center of art and education. Cyrus and his successors held the city in great regard'.

Babylon is also of interest because of its astronomical tradition, which extends back to the 3rd millennium BC, almost literally to before the Flood. Victor Clube and Bill Napier, in The Cosmic Winter (p. 29) say, 'from the seventh century [BC] onwards, we find Persians, Jews and Greeks alike, all apparently drawn to Babylon by the magnet of "Chaldean" science, sparking off something akin to a renaissance in the cosmopolitan atmosphere of easy communication and competition'. In the light of this statement, the picture in Job 26:7 (and in the cosmology of the Greek philosopher Anaximander) of the Earth being suspended motionless in infinite space may be drawn from Babylonian astronomy.

No, I did not forget about those quotations. And yes, Babylon was a great, great city. And now is virtually no more. Just as it is written in the Bible. Documents kept longer than Herodotus' history book.

 

[YoursTrue]

What do you think I've been saying about that all along???

Unbelievable, and thoroughly disgusting that you continue to misportray what I have been saying all along? Since when is "bearing false witness", as you are continuing to do via my beliefs, being in any way Christian? Have you no shame whatsoever?

Since I taught at a synagogue for roughly 12 years, ya.

Will you kindly stop misrepresenting my beliefs!

If I have misrepresented your beliefs, I am sorry. Please, dear Metis, how have I done that? Please try to explain accurately and cogently how I have misrepresented your beliefs.
Now answer this, since you're a teacher. Why do you think Jesus spoke of CREATION in more than one place. He also said he is the truth. Remember that? He did say he was alive before Abraham, didn't he? As a Bible teacher, what do you think he meant by that? I am sorry you got so upset. Please do explain with detailed reasons. (Thanks.) If I didn't read your explanation about these things before, I hope you can find it in your heart to understand and re-explain, thank you so much.

 

[YoursTrue]

What do you think I've been saying about that all along???

Unbelievable, and thoroughly disgusting that you continue to misportray what I have been saying all along? Since when is "bearing false witness", as you are continuing to do via my beliefs, being in any way Christian? Have you no shame whatsoever?

Since I taught at a synagogue for roughly 12 years, ya.

Will you kindly stop misrepresenting my beliefs!

Reading your quote of Gandhi there, in the service of others, perhaps you can go over your reasons and beliefs about the Bible's statements as well as what Jesus said vs evolution again, and why you are a Catholic? "In the service of others."

 

[metis]

If I have misrepresented your beliefs, I am sorry. Please, dear Metis, how have I done that? Please try to explain accurately and cogently how I have misrepresented your beliefs.

You keep on insinuating that I am not one who believes in Jesus and the Bible even though I repeatedly have told you otherwise.

Now answer this, since you're a teacher. Why do you think Jesus spoke of CREATION in more than one place

Because he believed in Creation, as I do as well. Where are difference lies is the process that God chose to utilize. Most Christian theologians do accept the ToE, btw.

Reading your quote of Gandhi there, in the service of others, perhaps you can go over your reasons and beliefs about the Bible's statements as well as what Jesus said vs evolution again

Jesus said nothing about evolution. .

and why you are a Catholic

What's supposedly wrong with being "a Catholic"?

BTW, which denomination do you belong to?

 

[metis]

"In the service of others."

What's wrong about being " in the service of others"? Is that not what the Jesus in the Sermon On the Mount tells us we must do?

 

[exchemist]

Reading your quote of Gandhi there, in the service of others, perhaps you can go over your reasons and beliefs about the Bible's statements as well as what Jesus said vs evolution again, and why you are a Catholic? "In the service of others."

I'm getting sick and tired of you too. It's about time you got it into your skull that most mainstream Christian denominations are not biblical literalist in nature and have no problem with science. It is deeply stupid to imagine that the only way to believe in a Creator and a created universe is if the Genesis stories are taken literally. These stories have been regarded as allegories, almost from the dawn of Christianity: Definition of ALLEGORY

If you want to write off Catholicism, Anglicanism, Methodism and Presbyterianism as not Christian, then nothing stops you doing so, but you will look a bit of an idiot trying.

 

[YoursTrue]

You keep on insinuating that I am not one who believes in Jesus and the Bible even though I repeatedly have told you otherwise.

Because he believed in Creation, as I do as well. Where are difference lies is the process that God chose to utilize. Most Christian theologians do accept the ToE, btw.

Jesus said nothing about evolution. .

What's supposedly wrong with being "a Catholic"?

BTW, which denomination do you belong to?

That's up to each individual as to belief. I am Christian. Of course it's up to each individual what teachings he accepts.
So thank you for clarifying your beliefs to an extent -- if I understand you correctly you believe in creation AND evolution. True, Jesus did NOT speak about evolution.
He did say he is the truth, and was alive before Abraham was. So now that brings up a question -- did Jesus evolve? Was he conceived in the 'natural' way? How do you view that? I do hope you will not take offense because I wonder just what parts of the Bible do you believe.
One might wonder, given that idea, where, when, and how did evolution begin, and to what extent did (does) God have a part in evolution or creation? Genesis 1 I mean I have read that evolution comes after abiogenesis, somehow abiogenesis is not in the equation and is dismissed in a discussion of evolution. And, of course, some would wonder, well -- how did abiogenesis come about? By nature, or by God? Please see Hebrews 11:3 below. What parts of the biblical account of creation (rather than evolution) do you believe?

John 8:58 -- Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?” 58“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59At this, they picked up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple area.
So was Jesus existing before Abraham?

Hebrews 11:3 - By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made from things that are not visible.
Was the universe created by the word of God?

This has been a most interesting and informative discussion, thank you. There are other questions this discussion has brought up, perhaps we can get to them another time. Have a nice day.

 

[YoursTrue]

What's wrong about being " in the service of others"? Is that not what the Jesus in the Sermon On the Mount tells us we must do?

Why would you take offense at my suggestion that since one claims to be in the service of others,

I'm getting sick and tired of you too. It's about time you got it into your skull that most mainstream Christian denominations are not biblical literalist in nature and have no problem with science. It is deeply stupid to imagine that the only way to believe in a Creator and a created universe is if the Genesis stories are taken literally. These stories have been regarded as allegories, almost from the dawn of Christianity: Definition of ALLEGORY

If you want to write off Catholicism, Anglicanism, Methodism and Presbyterianism as not Christian, then nothing stops you doing so, but you will look a bit of an idiot trying.

Each one must follow his heart. After all, the scriptures say one must love the Lord with all one's heart, mind, and soul. Since you're getting sick and tired of me too, that's up to you. But I must say that the 'discussions' have been very interesting.
And let's not forget beyond Genesis, Mark 13:19, Jesus said: "Pray that it will not occur in the winter. 19For in those days there will be tribulation unmatched from the beginning of God’s creation until now, and never to be seen again. 20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom He has chosen, He has cut them short."
Whether you are sick of me or not, I have learned a great deal from you.

 

[exchemist]

Why would you take offense at my suggestion that since one claims to be in the service of others,

Each one must follow his heart. After all, the scriptures say one must love the Lord with all one's heart, mind, and soul. Since you're getting sick and tired of me too, that's up to you. But I must say that the 'discussions' have been very interesting.
And let's not forget beyond Genesis, Mark 13:19, Jesus said: "Pray that it will not occur in the winter. 19For in those days there will be tribulation unmatched from the beginning of God’s creation until now, and never to be seen again. 20 If the Lord had not cut short those days, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom He has chosen, He has cut them short."
Whether you are sick of me or not, I have learned a great deal from you.

I wish I could believe you.

 

[metis]

I do hope you will not take offense because I wonder just what parts of the Bible do you believe.

I treat the Bible mostly as allegory since it is almost impossible to verify most of the narratives as being historically and scientifically accurate. Therefore, my main focus is usually on which values and morals are being taught, especially since those we can use on a daily basis as a guidance for life.

Genesis 1 I mean I have read that evolution comes after abiogenesis, somehow abiogenesis is not in the equation and is dismissed in a discussion of evolution.

Abiogenesis is merely a "hypothesis" within science, thus not any kind of an assumption.

By nature, or by God?

IMO, both.

What parts of the biblical account of creation (rather than evolution) do you believe?

I believe it likely is allegorical as a counter to the earlier and much more widespread polytheistic Babylonian creation narrative that was based on much different values and morals.

Was the universe created by the word of God?

One way or the other, probably yes. As a scientist, we are very reluctant to assume much of anything without ample evidence to support it, thus my hesitation.

 

[metis]

Why would you take offense at my suggestion that since one claims to be in the service of others,

I wasn't certain what you were saying about that, thus that was a question. I was therefore not taking offense but just asking you to clarify what you meant.