Did Muhammad wish for his followers to believe in the Torah and Gospel?

[Godobeyer]

So why would Christians and Jews corrupt their own sacred scriptures?

It's was not match with their desires and hopes.

Is there some perversity adherents of these religions have that Muslims are immune to?

Don't understand your point here.

 

[Seek truth]

The verse doesn’t refer to interpolation of text of the Torah nor removal of verses. It simply refers to misinterpretation and misunderstanding of the Torah. Al Baqarah was revealed in Medina and during this time Jews despite having access to the Torah and expecting a Messiah rejected Muhammad. They had a rigid understanding of the Torah so were unable to see how Muhammad could be their Prophet. The problem was they failed to apprehend the deeper significance of key verses to enable them to accept Muhammad. The idea the Jews deliberately changed the text of the Torah, a book they revered and held sacred, is preposterous and anti-Semitic. Muhammad never implied such a thing.

You don't even know what you're talking about.
Both the Torah and Bible contain verses where it says that there will be a prophet whith the name 'Muhammad'
And they changed those verses, and a lot more.
And by the way, is there a Bible right now? I don't think so. What you call a bible are words of Math,...
So where is the Bible that does contain the words of God?!

Plus: before that Muhammad became a prophet, when he was a kid, he travelled with his grandfather to a certain place for business. During their travel they went to a rabi, and he knew that Muhammad peace be upon him is a prophet, because of a lot of signs. One of them was a birthmark on his back. Another one was a wonder, a cloud was covering the prophet from the hot sun outside the house of the rabi. Also he knew that the prophet will be an arab from mekka ...

 

[firedragon]

The Quran is correct that the teachings in the Bible have been corrupted

Quran doesnt say that brother.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The thing what happened with Quran, is that it's interpretation became a play thing among people. And the day of judgment is a clear concept in Quran, and so Bahais play with it as well when they interpret the way they do.

It's become such a sophistication that Sunnis go through loops for example to deny clear verses like the connection of 4:54 to 4:59. And similarly, Bahais go through loops to deny the day of judgment concept. The Quran swears by the clear book. But it's clear signs in the hearts of those with knowledge, which is the Ahlulbayt, and then their followers follow clear signs in so much as they attained insights from them.

It's really a waste of time to discuss too much and argue too much about the Quran, because, the Quran put's a paradigm that the believers will follow the best of it which is the clear signs of it, while those with a disease in their heart will follow and resort to ambiguity desiring to interpret the book. And no one knows the interpretation of the Quran but God and the Firmly rooted in knowledge.

We have to go to Ahlulbayt thirsty to see the Quran as is. But this doesn't mean picking hadiths and twisting Quran left right and center to interpret the way we desire.

Do you believe there will come a Day, when all dead people, will be resurrected physically?

 

[Link]

Do you believe there will come a Day, when all dead people, will be resurrected physically?

Yes. And there is a day when a portion of every group that disbelieved will be resurrected as well, known as the period of Raja'a.

 

[Link]

It is lawful according to the Torah to put a false prophet to death (Deuteronomy 13:1-6) yet unlawful to deviate from the law let alone alter the text. Once again, this is anti-semitism.

The different portrayal of Aaron in the Torah and Quran is an interesting question you raise but would not be a cause of the Hebrew peoples deliberately altering their own sacred writings.

It is sufficient proof that they abandoned the exalted nature of Aaron and his chosen lineage despite the clear proofs still there. In the sea scrolls, it's said the covenant only pertains to the righteous of the offspring of Aaron. So there was no question of it changing, since it was to Aaron's righteous offspring only.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Mate. I beg you brother. Dont say things you dont understand. You are wrong brother.

Peace.

In a debate, just to say, you are wrong, holds no value. Anybody can come here and say you are wrong. When you dont have any logical argument or an evidence to back up your view, it means you lost the debate.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes. And there is a day when a portion of every group that disbelieved will be resurrected as well, known as the period of Raja'a.

To me, believing in a physical resurrection, means denying what infallible Imams said in their Hadithes. But, it is up to you, what you want to believe.

 

[Link]

If you mean the Baha’i beliefs about the Bab being the Promised Mahdi, that would be off topic. However we can agree on the twelve Imams starting from Ali as authoritative moving forward.

I mean you guys don't even accept something that all Muslims see clearly which is the day of judgment. I discussed a little about it, and saw how you guys play games with those verses. I believe there is no religion as dishonest as Bahaism as far I can witness in that it twists text to support their preconceived notions despite it being clearly other than their interpretation.

 

[Link]

To me, believing in a physical resurrection, means denying what infallible Imams said in their Hadithes. But, it is up to you, what you want to believe.

No there is verses about metaphorically reviving the dead, for example, in Quran, it says "o who was dead and we gave life, and made a light that walks among the people", the light is said to be the leader of the time, and so when God brings a human to life, he makes their heart witness and see the malakut (true kingdom of the world) and therein the light of Imam is brighter in their hearts then the sun light of the sky. This is a truth in our ahadith that you don't emphasize on, is the place of the current Imam whether hiding or not.

But language is not like if you use a parable once, you apply it everywhere. Sorry you conjecture too much InvestigateTruth. I'm not even convinced you even believe in what you post or on a pay roll by some anti-Shiite funds.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Quran contextualizes everything it says, and interprets itself and is layered into itself. This easy for me to do for myself, but for others, that deny the basics, it might not be.

I know this is what you claim.
But yet, you conveniently or deliberately did not answer my question.
I gave you a verse, and requested to show how Quran interprets itself. Demonstrate who is the Person who has the knowledge of the Book in the verse I quoted.
To claim something without evidence, does not hold any value in a debate.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No there is verses about metaphorically reviving the dead, for example, in Quran, it says "o who was dead and we gave life, and made a light that walks among the people", the light is said to be the leader of the time, and so when God brings a human to life, he makes their heart witness and see the malakut (true kingdom of the world) and therein the light of Imam is brighter in their hearts then the sun light of the sky. This is a truth in our ahadith that you don't emphasize on, is the place of the current Imam whether hiding or not.

But language is not like if you use a parable once, you apply it everywhere. Sorry you conjecture too much InvestigateTruth. I'm not even convinced you even believe in what you post or on a pay roll by some anti-Shiite funds.

Then by all means, I am OK if you want to continue this subject in the other thread. Remember you had left the discussion last time.
What you need to realize, is, Bahais sincerely believe Resurrection is only Spiritual and that this is what Quran and Hadithes teach. Bahais are not liars. Of course maybe they are wrong or misunderstood it, so, here you have a chance to do an honest debate about it.

 

[firedragon]

In a debate, just to say, you are wrong, holds no value. Anybody can come here and say you are wrong. When you dont have any logical argument or an evidence to back up your view, it means you lost the debate.

Alright then. Yousaid "According grammatical rule".

So i asked a specific question. You didnt answer. So tell me mate.

which grammatical rule? Al azmunnuh ulthammuhu or alzamaan ulhaadhiru?

Which one?

 

[Link]

w

I know this is what you claim.
But yet, you conveniently or deliberately did not answer my question.
I gave you a verse, and requested to show how Quran interprets itself. Demonstrate who is the Person who has the knowledge of the Book in the verse I quoted.
To claim something without evidence, does not hold any value in a debate.

The Quran interprets itself. If you remember what it has said about the family of the reminder and to seek them for answers when you don't know, and you remember all it said about Aaron, and you remember verses to do with Aaron like Suratal Inshara, and you remember the Ulil-Amr, and you remember all it said about chosen families of the past, it's very easy to see this is Imam Ali. Sorry, but this refer to the Imam, and if you know the sacred letter formations to be 14, then this one is about the Mahdi although first about Imam Ali, it's about the struggle for interpretation, and the verse therein goes back to the guide verse in 13:7, there is always a Guide that can bring out the signs in form of miracles that is demonstration of God's sustaining him directly and purposely and uniquely and demonstrates a power directly created and sustained by God with a purpose of trusting him as a representative.

It goes back to 13:7 by flow, and so it's about the final divide being about interpretation if you remember all the verses about interpretation and the sorcery of Iblis cast upon it. For example, 3:7 is not ambiguous in that, the Quran then shows the rope from God and rope from humans as one rope of God in the past, where as it was the family of Imran which was the family of Aaron, except Imran is a later chosen one of that family, and that they were meant to be held on to. The Quran flows, the Surah 3 flows, and warns the companions of Mohammad not turn on their backs and not to people like people who separated from the rope of God after clear proofs came to them. It's also the verse where in Mubahila which historically well documented in all sources occurred and where as only Ali was taken for "our selves" and only Fatima for our women and only Hassan and Hussain for our children.

God talks about Adam and Nuh and family of Abraham as well to that effect, and the whole Quran flows, and this goes well with the dialogue in chapter 2 of Talut and his link to Aaron and Moses, and the chosen household of that time.

There is nothing unclear in Quran if you let the Quran contextualize it's own verses. The family of the reminder, etc, is all clear if you recall all the verses that contextualize that.

 

[Link]

Then by all means, I am OK if you want to continue this subject in the other thread. Remember you had left the discussion last time.
What you need to realize, is, Bahais sincerely believe Resurrection is only Spiritual and that this is what Quran and Hadithes teach. Bahais are not liars. Of course maybe they are wrong or misunderstood it, so, here you have a chance to do an honest debate about it.

I'm not convinced you are honest. The way you twisted a verse, per Quran, it's not possible for believers to do so as they follow the clear signs only.

 

[Link]

Also in connection with the witnesses who suffice as a witness, there are a bunch of verses about a witness from every people witnessing on the day of judgment. That also shows it's the Imam.

 

[Link]

The amount of verses about the chosen families are so many in Quran. They all contextualize for example verse 42:23. 42:23 is also clear in itself, but it has also so much support from Quran including other reward verses like 25:57, that there is no room for dispute. This is the nature of Quran. It leaves nothing unexplained of it own verses, and even explains the Sunnah, and the Sunnah explains the Quran, together they are one light, and the family of Mohammad are LIVING instances of the BOOK's LIGHT, that is what is meant by Mohammad being a reminder that God revealed per Quran. Even the number of Successors to Mohammad is explained in the Quran, and if it didn't, it would cease to be a sufficient arbitrator regarding guidance. Of course, the Sunnah helps to see clear themes in Quran, but Quran suffices with the help of the Sunnah.

 

[Link]

Then by all means, I am OK if you want to continue this subject in the other thread. Remember you had left the discussion last time.
What you need to realize, is, Bahais sincerely believe Resurrection is only Spiritual and that this is what Quran and Hadithes teach. Bahais are not liars. Of course maybe they are wrong or misunderstood it, so, here you have a chance to do an honest debate about it.

I'm not interested in a dialogue about day of judgment, anyone can read Quran and see how dishonest Bahais are about this. Debating would mean there is need of explanation, when the verses are so clear regarding it, and they all contextualize each other, but you play language games, and don't let the flow of Quran interpret itself.

 

[Limo]

In the Holy Quran it is written that Muhammad (PBUH) said:

“If they (Jews and Christians) had observed the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. Among them there are people on the right course but many of them are of evil conduct.”
(Quran 5:66)

Further;

Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.
(Quran 5:68)

It would appear Muslims are commanded in the Quran 4:136, to believe in the books God revealed to the Jews and the Christians.

O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray.

Yet most Muslims believe the Torah and Gospel the Jews and Christians hold in their possession to be corrupted and not the Torah and Gospel Muhammad spoke of.

Is the Gospel and Torah the Christians and Jews possessed in the time of Muhammad so different from today that it could be considered corrupted? If the Gospel and Torah was corrupted in Muhammad’s day, why is this never mentioned in the Quran?

There 2 aspects of this case
First Aspect :
Yes we must believe in previous books. Precisely, Moslems should believe in previous book, If he doesn't, then he's not Moslem.
Previous books are not only Torah and Injeel but all books inspired to all prophets even that neither the books nor the believers exist today.
But believing in a book is something and practicing what is in it is something else.
For the seek of discussion, suppose that the original book (Torah and Injeel not new and old Testimony) exists, we wouldn't practice every command and avoid every haram. Allah said in Quran that every prophet has his people Sharia (Laws).
Moselms should believe in previous books but don't practice whatsoever in it.
Our obligatory believe is not more than, we believe that there is a book called Torah have been inspired to Mosa, Injeel to Isa Almaseeh, Almazameer to Dawood, Alsohf to Ibraheem.

Second Aspect :
Alhamd l Allah, Modern studies proofed that historically and linguistically that the Bible have changed all over the history.
Textual Criticism science proofed what have and still many Christians ignore till date.
Almaseeh's book that we believe in is called Injeel, it's an inspired book like Torah and Quran but what we've today is a totally different. We've 4 historical books written by anonymous 4 persons which have been given name at the end of the second century, another +25 messages half of them said it's written by Paul who didn't see Almaseeh.

Textual Criticism proofed Islamic view as it proofed that there is another disappeared source "Q source" who might be the original bible that the 4 Gospels writers have copied from it. This Q source might be the original Injeel
Textual Criticism also proofed that the number of variants between copies are about 400-500 thousands which is much more the number of words of the bible itself.

I say that these massive changes in New testimony are on Gospels are much higher than what happened on Torah. But still some noted changes in Torah.

What were existed in Prophet Mohamed's life while Quran was still inspired?
First : Allah told in Quran that they've changed the books.
Second : It doesn't mean that all books existed in prophet Mohamed's era were useless and should be totally avoided.
Prophet Mohamed himself said that we could narrate what have been revealed to Jews and Christians with care:

• Wisdom, History, names of some persons are not named in Quran
• No for anything contradicts with Quran like Unitarian, bad stories about prophets,,,,

Even within this 1300 years the books have changed a lot. For example, I don't have any references for the books that Arab Jews and Christians were using. It's also proofed historically that most of Arab Christians were not Trinityrian


In Summary:

• We must believe that the books inspired to previous prophets
• These books have been changed as Allah told us
• Even if they exist and not changed, we're not practice what are in it
• Scientifically and Historically Bible has changed even since prophet Mohamed was alive
• It doesn't mean that we reject all Bible but we can use wisdom and history verses

Regards

 

[Link]

When it comes to verse 13:43.
(1)You have the theme of the witnesses and a witness from each people testifying against them on the day of judgment.
(2)You have the theme of the family of the reminder which connects to all verses about chosen families.
(3)You have the emphasis on the reward people saw Mohammad seeking but he didn't seek a reward, but the reward they accuse him of seeking is really but what 42:23 describes as recognizing Ahlulbayt and 25:57 as taking a path to God and what other Prophets emphasized was really regarding God as obedience to them is obedience to God.
(4)You have 3:7 which is connected to the chosen households in 3:33 and the flow proves the firmly rooted in knowledge that know the book are the family of Mohammad and they are the rope from humans and rope from God is the Quran together they are the rope of God to be held on to, and this is clear, and even we have a hadith from the Nabi that uses the rope from God and rope from humans as the rope of God to show Imam Ali (as) has been designated therein clearly in Quran.
(5)You have 5:55 which in contrast to the verses before and after is saying don't take authorities of people claiming to represent divine books and Prophets like the people of the book but rather hold on to and take authority pertaining to religion only those who give security and particularly those were represented by Imam Ali when he gave charity while bowing and this flows back to 5:12 which flows back to 5:3 and completing the religion which flows to 5:67 which is what Mohammad had to clarify to all generations about Imam Ali and his family and Quran being one rope to be held on to.
(6) You have the Talut verses and the clear link to Ramadan and his test, that show, the Leaders and Kings appointed by God, those Messengers, as having higher knowledge that Angels carry.
(7)You have the flow of every people a guide and the Imammate verses as well.
(8) You have the chosen offspring verses that flow with all that.
(9) You have the Ulil-Amr verses connect with 4:54.

All this contextualizes it, and there are more, like the fight for interpretation against the sorcery of Iblis and falsehood of the Taghut.