Did Muhammad wish for his followers to believe in the Torah and Gospel?

[firedragon]

Just the fact that in 2:78 says ""Among them are unlettered folk"

"Among them are..." denotes, those people were present there at the time of Revelation of the verse!

Mate. I beg you brother. Dont say things you dont understand. You are wrong brother.

Peace.

 

[Link]

Explain how would Quran interpret itself, for example in this verse:


“Those who disbelieve say: “You are no emissary (of Allah)”. Say: “God suffices as a witness between me and you (all), as well as the one who has knowledge about the Book”. (13:43)

Without using any Hadith, and by only using Quran to interpret itself, tell me, who is, or who are "the one who has knowledge about the Book".
Don't use any previous ideas you got from Hadithes, or people, or family and friends. Just use Quran, and show how it interprets itself. Can you?

Quran contextualizes everything it says, and interprets itself and is layered into itself. This easy for me to do for myself, but for others, that deny the basics, it might not be.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thus you mean Muhammed is no messenger of God and did not have any divine inspiration whatsoever but used existing theologies and scriptures as it is! Thats your point? Okay. I understand.

Now you are twisting my words to make them say the opposite of what I believe. Its hard to progress a reasonable discussion.

To be clear Baha’is believe the Quran to be the authenticated respository of the Word of God.

 

[Link]

The thing what happened with Quran, is that it's interpretation became a play thing among people. And the day of judgment is a clear concept in Quran, and so Bahais play with it as well when they interpret the way they do.

It's become such a sophistication that Sunnis go through loops for example to deny clear verses like the connection of 4:54 to 4:59. And similarly, Bahais go through loops to deny the day of judgment concept. The Quran swears by the clear book. But it's clear signs in the hearts of those with knowledge, which is the Ahlulbayt, and then their followers follow clear signs in so much as they attained insights from them.

It's really a waste of time to discuss too much and argue too much about the Quran, because, the Quran put's a paradigm that the believers will follow the best of it which is the clear signs of it, while those with a disease in their heart will follow and resort to ambiguity desiring to interpret the book. And no one knows the interpretation of the Quran but God and the Firmly rooted in knowledge.

We have to go to Ahlulbayt thirsty to see the Quran as is. But this doesn't mean picking hadiths and twisting Quran left right and center to interpret the way we desire.

 

[firedragon]

Now you are twisting my words to make them say the opposite of what I believe. Its hard to progress a reasonable discussion.

To be clear Baha’is believe the Quran to be the authenticated respository of the Word of God.

Right.

So the point is this.

Muhammad received the Quran fro God. God knows everything. So Quran says that people wrote books and called them Gods word. It doesn’t say people corrupted God given text.

Hope you understand.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Right.

So the point is this.

Muhammad received the Quran fro God. God knows everything. So Quran says that people wrote books and called them Gods word. It doesn’t say people corrupted God given text.

Hope you understand.

So those that wrote the Quran, called it God's Word?

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

How is it anti-Semitic or Preposterous, they killed the Prophets per Quran, and so what stops them from distorting text. The only reason Quran survived is because Ahlulbayt of Mohammad was put in a way that allows sorcery to blind people to them therein. But we see Torah is clear in the Ahlulbayt of Aaron, but then goes 180 against it, part of the Torah is blessed, but part of it is cursed.

It is lawful according to the Torah to put a false prophet to death (Deuteronomy 13:1-6) yet unlawful to deviate from the law let alone alter the text. Once again, this is anti-semitism.

The different portrayal of Aaron in the Torah and Quran is an interesting question you raise but would not be a cause of the Hebrew peoples deliberately altering their own sacred writings.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Right.

So the point is this.

Muhammad received the Quran fro God. God knows everything. So Quran says that people wrote books and called them Gods word. It doesn’t say people corrupted God given text.

Hope you understand.

Ok. The problem is one of understanding what Muhammad meant. The Gospel writers were heroes and saints for recording an account of the Life and Teachings of Christ for the benefit of many generations over hundreds of years. Your interpretation of the Quran turns them into villains and corrupters of God’s Word. You can’t see why that’s a problem?

 

[firedragon]

Ok. The problem is one of understanding what Muhammad meant. The Gospel writers were heroes and saints for recording an account of the Life and Teachings of Christ for the benefit of many generations over hundreds of years. Your interpretation of the Quran turns them into villains and corrupters of God’s Word. You can’t see why that’s a problem?

Nope. I was representing the Islamic viewpoint. You can disagree, but this is the Islamic view.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Nope. I was representing the Islamic viewpoint. You can disagree, but this is the Islamic view.

Yes, I know it is mainstream Islamic thought, but as far as I can see its a serious misunderstanding of the Quran and what Muhammad said. The best we can hope for is to agree to disagree.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, I know it is mainstream Islamic thought, but as far as I can see its a serious misunderstanding of the Quran and what Muhammad said. The best we can hope for is to agree to disagree.

It’s what the Quran says.

but agree to disagree.

 

[firedragon]

So those that wrote the Quran, called it God's Word?

Regards Tony

Quran says it’s Gods word.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The thing what happened with Quran, is that it's interpretation became a play thing among people. And the day of judgment is a clear concept in Quran, and so Bahais play with it as well when they interpret the way they do.

It's become such a sophistication that Sunnis go through loops for example to deny clear verses like the connection of 4:54 to 4:59. And similarly, Bahais go through loops to deny the day of judgment concept. The Quran swears by the clear book. But it's clear signs in the hearts of those with knowledge, which is the Ahlulbayt, and then their followers follow clear signs in so much as they attained insights from them.

It's really a waste of time to discuss too much and argue too much about the Quran, because, the Quran put's a paradigm that the believers will follow the best of it which is the clear signs of it, while those with a disease in their heart will follow and resort to ambiguity desiring to interpret the book. And no one knows the interpretation of the Quran but God and the Firmly rooted in knowledge.

We have to go to Ahlulbayt thirsty to see the Quran as is. But this doesn't mean picking hadiths and twisting Quran left right and center to interpret the way we desire.

If you mean the Baha’i beliefs about the Bab being the Promised Mahdi, that would be off topic. However we can agree on the twelve Imams starting from Ali as authoritative moving forward.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Quran says it’s Gods word.

So does the Torah and Bible and if we look further all God's Messengers have left us God's Word.

Isaiah 55:11
"So shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it"

Romans 15:4
"For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope."

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Thus we can see God's never leaves us alone without sure Guidance, that is naught but manifest Justice.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

So does the Torah and Bible and if we look further all God's Messengers have left us God's Word.

Isaiah 55:11
"So shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it"

Romans 15:4
"For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope."

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Thus we can see God's never leaves us alone without sure Guidance, that is naught but manifest Justice.

Regards Tony

Bro. I respect your faith. This is not relevant because I was only stating the Islamic view on what the Quran says.

So what you say is not relevant to that point. I am not arguing about the Bible being Gods word or not. So it’s not relevant.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The Quran say its the Word of God and both Muslims and Baha’is believe this is true. The Quran mentions of Torah 18 times and the Gospel 12 times. What exactly constitutes the Torah and Gospel is a point of difference. Muslims and Baha’is believe the Torah and Gospel has something to do with the Revelation given to Moses and Jesus respectively by God/Allah.

For Baha’is those Revelations are reflected in the Torah and Gospel in the Hebrew Bible and New Testament. It may not be the exact Words Spoken by Moses and Jesus but through these books God has conveyed all He wished. Further the books have been under God’s Protection. Muslims don’t believe this.

For Muslims the Torah and Gospel is not the same book the Jews and Christians have in their possession. They believe the original has been lost or corrupted. Muslims see no need for the Gospel or Torah because they have the Quran. This is not what Baha’is believe.

I’ve witnessed many conversations between Muslims, Christians and Jews. Often discussions break down over this very point. So it can be a significant barrier to finding common ground.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Bro. I respect your faith. This is not relevant because I was only stating the Islamic view on what the Quran says.

So what you say is not relevant to that point. I am not arguing about the Bible being Gods word or not. So it’s not relevant.

That's OK, I see that it is in respect to God's Word contained in the Quran, given by Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) , that it is important for me, personally, to see that the Torah and the Bible are also sure guidance.

Every one can see it as they see it is.

Peace be with you Firedragon. Regards Tony

 

[Faithofchristian]

In the Holy Quran it is written that Muhammad (PBUH) said:

“If they (Jews and Christians) had observed the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. Among them there are people on the right course but many of them are of evil conduct.”
(Quran 5:66)

Further;

Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.
(Quran 5:68)

It would appear Muslims are commanded in the Quran 4:136, to believe in the books God revealed to the Jews and the Christians.

O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray.

Yet most Muslims believe the Torah and Gospel the Jews and Christians hold in their possession to be corrupted and not the Torah and Gospel Muhammad spoke of.

Is the Gospel and Torah the Christians and Jews possessed in the time of Muhammad so different from today that it could be considered corrupted? If the Gospel and Torah was corrupted in Muhammad’s day, why is this never mentioned in the Quran?

If I may agree that the Gospel has been corrupted.. because of man's teachings..

Let's look back at the time of king James.
King James chosen out about 40 men that know the languages of the Hebrew and Greek and had these men to translate the Hebrew and Greek into English.
So what we have is what is called
The King James version 1611 and the year the Hebrew and Greek being translation into English.
Because the Roman Catholic Church did not like for the people to have free excess
to the scriptures...without a priest telling them what they wanted the people to know.
So the Roman Catholic Church came out with their own version of the bible.
So here is the kick off.where all the other Bible's of man's teachings corrupted the bible.
So now there are so many copies of the Bible.
But yet the 1611 of king James is still the number one bible sold.
All because man's teachings has not of yet corrupted it.
But man has come out with other
king James version of the 1611..
But what we have is man trying to incorporate their words and teachings into the king James bible.
Take for instance what people call the
Rapture..but yet there is no where in the Bible that speaks anything about the Rapture..but yet man's teaching tries it's hardest to incorporate the Rapture theory into the king James 1611 version.

This is most likely what Muhammad was referring to how man's teachings corrupted the Gospels and Torah.
Unto which Muhammad was right about.
Then you have people in those churches that hasn't a clue or idea what the Gospels or the Torah actually does say themselves.
They set there and let some man tell them what the Gospels will say and the people are so gullible they take it as so.
All because people themselves have no clue or idea what the Gospels or Torah actually does say themselves.

One would think that with all the technology of how to translate Hebrew and Greek into English.. people would take the advantage of this technology.
But as it is.. people would rather let a man that is just as much of a sinner as they are tell them what the Gospels and Torah is saying..instead of at least trying to read them for themselves. So that they know whether or not they are being told the truth in and about the Gospels and Torah.

 

[wizanda]

The best we can hope for is to agree to disagree.

It’s what the Quran says.

but agree to disagree.

The Quran is correct that the teachings in the Bible have been corrupted; when we dissect the Bible properly it states all these things within it, and people are being illogical.

The Gospel of John Vs the Synoptic Gospels is an IQ test; that has deliberate mistakes to show it, and people are not dealing with evidence.

The Quran presents certain aspects that have become corrupted, such as the Trinity, the Begotten son of God, that Isa came to die, etc, these mainly come from the Gospel of John's influences.

Paul is not listed as part of the Gospel, and therefore according to an Islamic standard, these are additions; Revelation 2:2 also calls him a false apostle.

Simon being called the stone is prophetic because he was a Pharisaic infiltrator; Yehoshua specifically named him a Stumbling Stone (peter) for prophetic reasons (Zechariah 3:9, Isaiah 8:11-16) - to not take on board the prophets messages isn't Islamic.

Paul and Simon created Christianity, which stood against the Ebionites with James the Just Head of the church of Jerusalem...

In early Islamic writings this is documented; that Islam learned from the original followers of Yeshua, the Followers of the Way/Nazarene/Ebionites (Wheat and Tares).

Stating there is corruption within the message, with evidence is what the Quran stipulated; the problem is Islam became Muhammadans (an isolated texts), not Muslims (read all the texts as one), else they'd study these errors in detail.

The other huge contributing factor of the corruptions, is Leviticus was made up in Babylon, and can be seen directly contradicting the Curse of Moses (Deuteronomy 28-30:10 Vs Leviticus 26)...

The reason this is crucial is Islam, and Yeshua both teach Judgement Day Fire coming here; which is the Curse of Moses (Deuteronomy 29:19-27), this has been removed from Jewish thinking by their scholars.

The Bible prophesied its own corruption (Deuteronomy 31:24-29, Ezekiel 20:25, Zechariah 5, Isaiah 30:8-10, Habakkuk 2, etc), so to excuse the prophecy of both the Bible and Quran, that the Source of reality is making the New Testament to test mankind (Isaiah 8:11-22), proves people don't really read these texts properly.

To be logical, we shouldn't leave an open problem that is solvable; if we actually dissect the problem, and identify the errors, we can then stitch up the issues logically - Leaving it, isn't a solution.

In my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

That's OK, I see that it is in respect to God's Word contained in the Quran, given by Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) , that it is important for me, personally, to see that the Torah and the Bible are also sure guidance.

Every one can see it as they see it is.

Peace be with you Firedragon. Regards Tony

I perfectly understand brother. And I am not attempting at all to prove otherwise.

I am only trying to show what is said in the Quran and the position of the earliest Islamic theology according to the school of Medina. This is the oldest found idea of Islam.

in this thread, that’s all I am trying to show.

peace.