Why Didn't the Holy Spirit Know?

[dfnj]

Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


Joh 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him.
Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.


Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

only begotten or one of a kind son;

as Issac is Abraham's only begotten or one of a kind son.

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

It may be just a play on words. In this context Father means Abraham as the father of the Jewish tribe. And Jesus, being the son of the tribe, as being the reincarnated spirit of Abraham walking among the people.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I see there are some things that you don't yet understand. Paul said some things that apply to him and to a few others. it is also likely that there were some things that Paul did not yet know when he pined his words . even John did not understand the vision of the book of Rev. and it highly likely Paul never read the words of that book .

That's right..
Paul never read the book of Revelation..
As the book of Revelation was only given to John on the island of Patmos.
So your right..
But it may make a person wonder how did Paul know such things that are only found in the book of Revelation..
Seeing that Paul never got the chance to read the book of Revelation himself.

But yet wrote about things that are only found in the book of Revelation..

So what it comes down to..
Is what God revealed to John on the island of Patmos...God revealed also to Paul on some of those things in Revelation.

It's like having two persons. One on the other side of the earth and one on the other side of the earth..
And the two has no way of contacting each other... But yet. both writes about the same things..in their writings.

 

[Faithofchristian]

It may be just a play on words. In this context Father means Abraham as the father of the Jewish tribe. And Jesus, being the son of the tribe, as being the reincarnated spirit of Abraham walking among the people.

Actually there's a big difference between
father Abraham and God the Father..

Notice that when Abraham is called
father Abraham....father being in lower case ( f ) and God the Father..is higher case
( F ) signifying one greater than the other.

It's like there are (president) of company's
Lower case letter
And there is ( President) of the United States higher case letter
one lower case signifying 1 lesser then the higher case President. ( p ) ( P )

Like Jesus Christ as King of Kings
Jesus ( King) higher case letter
and the other
( king) in lower case letter..( k ) ( K)

As with God and god
God the Father
and Satan trying to be God but just a little god.
trying to be the big ( G ) but just little ( g )

 

[Muffled]

Speaking about his second coming, Jesus said,

"But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Matt 24:36.
​

I understand Trinitarians say that it was the "man part" of Jesus that didn't know the day and hour. Scripturally, it's not the best argument given that there are no verses that mention a "man part" of Jesus.

But we'll assume Jesus had a God part as well as a man part. But why doesn't the third person of the trinity know the day and hour? Is he also part God and part man?

The verse does say that. The Spirit alone is the Father and it says the Father knows.

 

[Muffled]

You're asking a literalist question. From the Christian perspective, there can be a different answer rather than taking the quote literally.

What would be the impact 2000 years ago if Jesus had said "you can relax for 2050 years because that's when the second coming would occur"?

The psychological perspective is that when people are alert to something that might happen at any moment, their thoughts, words and deeds will reflect their effort to be ready.

I believe however that this does not answer the question of when Jesus returns and the world ends as we know it but answers the question of when there will be no more world sometime 50 million years from now according to scientists.

 

[Muffled]

I always assumed the spirit does know. Many people with the spirit are aware of future events. Revelations explains the entire rapture but does not reveal the date. GOD does not want the date revealed, so the spirit is not allowed to reveal it. The spirit could reveal the date if God allowed it.

I believe however that there are signs for those who have the Spirit to help understand them.

 

[dfnj]

Actually there's a big difference between
father Abraham and God the Father..

Notice that when Abraham is called
father Abraham....father being in lower case ( f ) and God the Father..is higher case
( F ) signifying one greater than the other.

It's like there are (president) of company's
Lower case letter
And there is ( President) of the United States higher case letter
one lower case signifying 1 lesser then the higher case President. ( p ) ( P )

Like Jesus Christ as King of Kings
Jesus ( King) higher case letter
and the other
( king) in lower case letter..( k ) ( K)

As with God and god
God the Father
and Satan trying to be God but just a little god.
trying to be the big ( G ) but just little ( g )

I think read somewhere the Coptic word for God also means ancestral father. I wanted to quote a link but I could not find one.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You know...Jesus Christ understood the concept of body and soul..
Jesus Christ said in Matthew 10:28---
28--"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"
If you notice Jesus is indicating the soul as being immortal not liable to dying..
But only God holds the power to destroy both the body and soul..
At the time Jesus Christ returns..then the body of flesh and blood ceases to live and the soul/spirit comes out of the body of flesh and blood..
This is what disciple Paul written about in
1 Corinthians 15:51-52..
51--"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52--"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed"
Notice ( at the last Trump) this being the last trumpet of the book of Revelation.
In the book of Revelation there are
7 trumpets...the last trumpet when it sounds Christ Jesus returns.
Notice ( the dead shall be raised)
at the time the last trumpet is sounded..
everyone is changed to the spirit..so there is no dead..
so who is the dead..that shall be changed and raise..
the dead are those who are spiritually dead these believe not in God or Jesus Christ.
As Jesus Christ said back in
Matthew 10:28 above---"but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"
This takes place in the book of
Revelation 20:13-15.
13--"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14--"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15--"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".............

I find 'biblical hell' is just the common stone-cold temporary grave for the sleeping dead.
This is why Jesus likened 'sleep to death' and Not to pain - John 11:11-14.
No soul immortality being spoken of at Matthew 10:28
Jesus was teaching the soul can be destroyed in Gehenna.
King James translated into English the word Gehenna as hell or hell fire.
Gehenna was a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed forever.
Thus, as Psalms 92:7 says the wicked will be ' destroyed forever '.

At 1 Corinthians Paul is addressing those ' brothers ' who are the saints of holy ones of Daniel 7:18.
They have that first or earlier resurrection to heaven - Revelation 20:6; Revelation 2:10; Revelation 5:9-10.
So, the 20th chapter of Revelation is about the majority of mankind who can have a later happy-and-healthy physical resurrection on Earth.

 

[rrobs]

The verse does say that. The Spirit alone is the Father and it says the Father knows.

I'm not sure, but it sounds like you are making the Spirit a person when the scriptures actually uses it as an attribute of God. Jesus said, "God is spirit..." Of course God is also holy and therefore his true nature is holy spirit. Again, holy spirit is what God is, not a separate person.

Jesus once told the religious leaders that their traditions make God's word (the scriptures) of no effect. The trinity doctrine certainly enjoys a long history as a church tradition. It began before Paul even died. He warned us against preaching another Jesus who he did not preach. Well, Paul never said anything about the trinity. He, nor any other writer, never used one single word the Council of Nicea had to resort to using in order to "explain" the trinity doctrine.

The scriptures will never be understood as the are meant to be understood so long as we mix up what God is, i.e., holy spirit, with some extra-biblical person called the Holy Spirit. They will truly, as Jesus said, be of no effect, at least not as much as they could be if we stuck to truth (the scriptures and nothing but the scriptures) instead of tradition.

 

[cataway]

I'm not sure, but it sounds like you are making the Spirit a person when the scriptures actually uses it as an attribute of God. Jesus said, "God is spirit..." Of course God is also holy and therefore his true nature is holy spirit. Again, holy spirit is what God is, not a separate person.

Jesus once told the religious leaders that their traditions make God's word (the scriptures) of no effect. The trinity doctrine certainly enjoys a long history as a church tradition. It began before Paul even died. He warned us against preaching another Jesus who he did not preach. Well, Paul never said anything about the trinity. He, nor any other writer, never used one single word the Council of Nicea had to resort to using in order to "explain" the trinity doctrine.

The scriptures will never be understood as the are meant to be understood so long as we mix up what God is, i.e., holy spirit, with some extra-biblical person called the Holy Spirit. They will truly, as Jesus said, be of no effect, at least not as much as they could be if we stuck to truth (the scriptures and nothing but the scriptures) instead of tradition.

have you contemplated that angles are also holy spirits . and that they being servants of God are sent to do what ever it is the most high God wants done ??

 

[rrobs]

have you contemplated that angles are also holy spirits . and that they being servants of God are sent to do what ever it is the most high God wants done ??

I know the scriptures says angels are spirits, but I don't recall reading anywhere they are called holy spirit. Do you know of a verse that says that? Thanks.

 

[cataway]

I know the scriptures says angels are spirits, but I don't recall reading anywhere they are called holy spirit. Do you know of a verse that says that? Thanks.

ya har har my bad . right letters wrong placings . angels , even holy angels

 

[cataway]

Mark 8:38 For whoever becomes ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man will also be ashamed of him when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”

 

[cataway]

Luke 9:
26 For whoever becomes ashamed of me and of my words, the Son of man will be ashamed of that person when he comes in his glory and that of the Father and of the holy angels.
REVELATION 14:10
he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.

 

[rrobs]

Luke 9:
26 For whoever becomes ashamed of me and of my words, the Son of man will be ashamed of that person when he comes in his glory and that of the Father and of the holy angels.
REVELATION 14:10
he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.

Thanks. I also found:

Acts 10:22,

And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
​

Obviously there is indeed such a thing as a holy angel. Since they are spirits they are holy spirits. Never thought about that before. I'll put that on my study list.

 

[cataway]

Thanks. I also found:

Acts 10:22,

And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
​

Obviously there is indeed such a thing as a holy angel. Since they are spirits they are holy spirits. Never thought about that before. I'll put that on my study list.

I know there is something called the office of the president. the office of the vice-president .even the office of the speaker of the house . if we were to make a correlation with that to Jehovah ,Jesus and the holy spirit (Matthew 28:19)as a chain of command things would be clearer as to what their relationship to each other is.

 

[rrobs]

I know there is something called the office of the president. the office of the vice-president .even the office of the speaker of the house . if we were to make a correlation with that to Jehovah ,Jesus and the holy spirit (Matthew 28:19)as a chain of command things would be clearer as to what their relationship to each other is.

Jesus was made a little lower than the angels (Heb 2:7 & 9). I don't believe the scriptures speak of holy spirit as a separate person at all. Depending on the context, it is used as a moniker for God (who is holy and spirit) as well as the gift he gives all born again believers.

God put His spirit upon certain OT folks but it was on a condition and usually temporary. Born again believers, on the other hand, were given the fullness of that holy spirit and it is permanent. We are told that we were born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible seed.

Almost all Christians that I have met say that speaking in tongues is a gift of the spirit. Even a casual reading of 1 Corinthians ought to show that tongues is not a gift. The same with prophecy, interpretation of tongues, healing, etc (1 Cor 12:8-10). Verse 7 says as plain as day that all of them are a manifestation of the gift, which is holy spirit. Verse 11 says that all of the manifestations are a result of the gift.

Making holy spirit a person completely blinds too many Christians to the power they really have. Did not Jesus tell us we will do the works he did and then some? He certainly did! If you look at the manifestations of the spirit (1 Cor 12:8-10) , you will see that with the exception of tongues and interpretation of tongues, Jesus did all the others. Tongues and interpretation of tongues was not available until the day of Pentecost, so Jesus did not operate those two, but he certainly did all the others. He did it through the spirit of God that dwelt in him and we do the same works by the gift of holy spirit God so graciously gave us at the moment of our new birth. Getting holy spirit is the very essence of the new birth, it what makes us His children. It is either God Himself or the gift He gives. It is never a separate person floating around in heaven.

 

[cataway]

I do not speak of the holy spirit as being one single being but its a whole organized group consisting of millions of faithful sons of God.
you cant get trinity out of that no matter how hard you try

 

[Clear]

Speaking about his second coming, Jesus said,

"But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Matt 24:36.
​

I understand Trinitarians say that it was the "man part" of Jesus that didn't know the day and hour. Scripturally, it's not the best argument given that there are no verses that mention a "man part" of Jesus.

But we'll assume Jesus had a God part as well as a man part. But why doesn't the third person of the trinity know the day and hour? Is he also part God and part man?

So the Father rules over the other members of the trinity? That hardly paints a picture of three equal beings in one.

Hi @rrobs

I assume the context underlying your question has to do with how information can exist in God the Father, yet not in something (the holy spirit) that, in the "three is really one" trinitarian views, is also the Father. I agree that this is illogical on the surface and think the answer lies not in the later views of the "three is really one" trinitarianism, but in the early Judeo-Christian model where the spirit of God is not the same as God. In this earlier model, the spirit doesn't know because God the Father makes decisions which he delegates to the son or to the spirit to accomplish. In this model, they are not the same individual. In this model, the question can be answered logically.

In any case rrobs, good luck in finding the insight you are looking for. I hope your spiritual journey is good.

Clear
νετωφιω

 

[rrobs]

Hi @rrobs

I assume the context underlying your question has to do with how information can exist in God the Father, yet not in something (the holy spirit) that, in the "three is really one" trinitarian views, is also the Father. I agree that this is illogical on the surface and think the answer lies not in the later views of the "three is really one" trinitarianism, but in the early Judeo-Christian model where the spirit of God is not the same as God. In this earlier model, the spirit doesn't know because God the Father makes decisions which he delegates to the son or to the spirit to accomplish. In this model, they are not the same individual. In this model, the question can be answered logically.

In any case rrobs, good luck in finding the insight you are looking for. I hope your spiritual journey is good.

Clear
νετωφιω

Thanks for the info. I'd never heard that before. Where did you come across the idea of the early Judeo-Christian model? I'd be interested in hearing more about that.

I understand the scriptures to declare that God is holy and that He is spirit. His very nature is holy spirit. I don't see the scriptures saying that holy spirit is in any sense a separate person, sharing in one essence or not. That idea took some 350 years to develop. If it is true, and it is of paramount important to our salvation, one must wonder why John, Peter, or Paul never said anything about it. According to the Athanasian Creed, they were not even born again, since they never confessed a trinity! They only confessed Jesus as Lord and believed God raised him from the dead as per Rom 10:9-10. Something is wrong in Denmark!

I also understand holy spirit to be the gift which God gives to all born again believers. It's what makes us born again children of God. There are nine manifestations of the spirit as outlined in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10. They are almost always called "gifts" by most Christians, but a close reading will reveal that the gift is holy spirit, not speaking in tongues, prophecy, etc. . Now spirit can not be seen in the material world, so God gave nine manifestations of the one gift so the gift of spirit might be revealed in the material world.

Jesus said we would do the works he did and more. If you look at the nine manifestations it will become obvious that Jesus operated seven of them. He didn't speak in tongues or interpret tongues simply because they were not available until the Day of Pentecost when God first have His gift of holy spirit to the disciples.

All in all, I think there is way to much speculation on holy spirit and not enough scriptural accuracy. When it comes to matters of faith and practice, the scriptures should be our only source of truth. Tradition, no matter how long held, should be discarded in favor of God's wonderful matchless word.