Why Didn't the Holy Spirit Know?

[rrobs]

That's because Jesus is the Son. He is not the Father. But the Son is God also.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Surely you are not suggesting that Paul should have written:

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost?????​

 

[Clear]

rrobs said : "It seems like that is more than a minor detail to me."

I didn't say "minor" detail. I was using the dictionary definition of detail as "an individual feature, fact, or item." Some details are very important, such as which wire to cut when defusing a nuclear bomb. Which wire one cuts is important, but it is a detail.

In this case, I was inferring that Christians seem to agree that there are three different individuals in the typical Godhead. They disagree on the details regarding the relationship between God, the Son/Messiah and the spirit. While many of the details are important and not minor, there are still many details they disagree on.

For example Good-ole-rebel said : "All Persons are equally God. That doesn't negate order of authority. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."(post #123 - underline and bold is mine).

While he believes they are somehow "equal", the fact that there is an "order of authority" makes them different and "unequal". To claim two unequal things are "equal" sounds illogical and irrational in normal situations.

It is inside such statements that details exist which, though discrete, create confusion and irrational models. In early Christianity, Jesus had a God he worshipped while God the Father had no God whom he worshipped. Such details and differences make the son different somehow from the father and other details make the holy spirit different that the other two individuals in this trinity of individuals.


Clear.
ειτζσινεω

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Surely you are not suggesting that Paul should have written:

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost?????​

I am suggesting that Jesus is the Son and not the Father. But Jesus is God also.

Paul in (1 Cor. 8:6) is contrasting the lords many and gods many of the heathen. He is not addressing the Trinity of God. To us as Christians there is One God and One Lord. This does not take away the deity of Jesus Christ. You will find God at times addressed as Lord. Does that mean Jesus isn't Lord? No.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[cataway]

That's because Jesus is the Son. He is not the Father. But the Son is God also.

Good-Ole-Rebel

that's whats known as a contradiction

 

[cataway]

1 CORINTHIANS 8

5 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

 

[cataway]

I agree with @cataway that there is a hierarchy in the trinity of the ancient Judeo-Christian movement. That is, while there is a degree of unity in principles within the ancient model of the trinity, it was not a complete equality in historical Christianity.

When 1 Corinthians 11:3 says “the head of the Christ is the God", similarly, the ancient Judao-christian literature of the period demonstrates clearly their belief that God the Father has ultimate authority over all other beings who are subservient to him. As Barnabas said : “to rule” implies that one has authority, so that the one giving orders is really in control.” (The Epistle of Barnabas 6:18) This ancient Judao-Christian framework was very clear that ALL authentic religious authority, whether that given to the Son Jesus, to angels or to men, flows from that ultimate source and is delegate to a specific degree to his authentic servants as he sees fit.

“For the Father anointed the Son, and the Son anointed the apostles, and the apostles anointed us.” (The gospel of Phillip). Early sacred texts make clear that ancient Judao-Christians believed that God the Father wielded ultimate authority. This is true whether it was Jewish Enoch who proclaimed of the Father “Your authority and kingdom abide forever and ever; and your dominion throughout all the generations of generation;..” (1st Enoch 84:2) or whether it is New Testament Hermas who taught “God alone has the power to give healing, for all authority is his. (Hermas 60:3-4).

This pattern of hierachy appears in multiple ways in multiple texts. For example, New Testament Clement, the colleague of the Apostle Peter says that “The Apostles received the gospel for us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus the Christ was sent from God. 2 So then Christ is from God, and the apostles are from Christ. Both therefore, came of the will of God in good order..” 1 Clement 42:1-4;

The most common description of Heirachy in early Christianity was one in which authority originates in God the Father, who then delegates commissions and authority to others. That is, God the Father commissions and sends the Son, the spirit, etc.

Clear

if there is a hierarchy there is no trinity

 

[Clear]

Hi @cataway

Whether one is speaking of three people, or three gods, or three grapes. Why is "three" of them not a trinity (regardless of whether one places them into a hierarchy or not)? Can you explain what you meant by post # 146?

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

that's whats known as a contradiction

I see no contradiction.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[cataway]

Hi @cataway

Whether one is speaking of three people, or three gods, or three grapes. Why is "three" of them not a trinity (regardless of whether one places them into a hierarchy or not)? Can you explain what you meant by post # 146?

there are in fact many false gods that are believed to be trinities . in fact the world is replete with false gods, not all of them trinities yet all of them are false gods. its a pagan concept that found its way into, so-called Christianity

 

[Clear]

Hi @cataway

Your statement in post 149 does not answer my question.

My question regarded your claim in post 146.

Why are three of anything not a "trinity", regardless of whether they are in a hierarchy, regardless of whether we are speaking of a trinity of three gods, three apples, three horses, etc.

Your claim "if there is a hierarchy there is no trinity" does not make sense as it stands. Can you explain why you think a hierarchy means there cannot be a trinity of three things?

Clear

Clear

 

[cataway]

Hi @cataway

Your statement in post 149 does not answer my question.

My question regarded your claim in post 146.

Why are three of anything not a "trinity", regardless of whether they are in a hierarchy, regardless of whether we are speaking of a trinity of three gods, three apples, three horses, etc.

Your claim "if there is a hierarchy there is no trinity" does not make sense as it stands. Can you explain why you think a hierarchy means there cannot be a trinity of three things?

Clear

Clear

you would like to believe the 3 ,father, son and HS are equal to each other . that they are co-equal ?? you could search scripture day in and day out you will never find the son part sending the father part off to do something that the son part wants done . you will never find the holy spirit sending the father part to do something that the holy spirit part wants done .
both the son and the holy spirit , even spirits or sons of God, are servants of the Father .
Sooooo, if you would prefer to hold to a pagan belief ?? there would be no rules . you could do what ever it is you want to do .not that I am not giving you permission to fallow a false god , I'm just saying its a bad idea​

 

[rrobs]

I am suggesting that Jesus is the Son and not the Father. But Jesus is God also.

Paul in (1 Cor. 8:6) is contrasting the lords many and gods many of the heathen. He is not addressing the Trinity of God. To us as Christians there is One God and One Lord. This does not take away the deity of Jesus Christ. You will find God at times addressed as Lord. Does that mean Jesus isn't Lord? No.

Good-Ole-Rebel

I think you are absolutely correct in saying Jesus had a deity nature, but so do all born again believers.

2 Pet 1:4,

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
​

The offspring of any creature shares in the nature of it's parent. A puppy has a dog nature, a kitten has a cat nature, a calf has a cow nature, etc. As the son of God, of course Jesus would have a divine nature. As we see in 1 Peter, so do we. Thanks to the work Jesus did, we are as much a child of God as was he himself. But that makes us no more God Almighty than it makes Jesus God. The offspring of any creature, including God, is never it's own parent. They are a completely separate individual.

God bless.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

I think you are absolutely correct in saying Jesus had a deity nature, but so do all born again believers.

2 Pet 1:4,

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
​

The offspring of any creature shares in the nature of it's parent. A puppy has a dog nature, a kitten has a cat nature, a calf has a cow nature, etc. As the son of God, of course Jesus would have a divine nature. As we see in 1 Peter, so do we. Thanks to the work Jesus did, we are as much a child of God as was he himself. But that makes us no more God Almighty than it makes Jesus God. The offspring of any creature, including God, is never it's own parent. They are a completely separate individual.

God bless.

Yes, we are partakers of the Divine Nature of God.

Yes, due to the work Jesus and the Holy Spirit and the Father did, we are a child of God. Really and literally.

And, yes, that does not make us God Almighty.

But, we are not like Jesus in that regard. Before Jesus was born into the human race as a child, He was the Son always existing with the Father. Thus the wording in (Is. 9:6) " unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given...and his name shall be called ...The mighty God...." The son was not born. The son was given. The Son always existed with the Father.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Shad]

Speaking about his second coming, Jesus said,

"But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Matt 24:36.​

Actually there is a verse pointing out it will before the current generation of disciples died. Too bad they died and nothing happened.
​

 

[rrobs]

Actually there is a verse pointing out it will before the current generation of disciples died. Too bad they died and nothing happened.
​

There is a good reason for that, but it takes a little background. Here goes:

God promised Israel a kingdom. It was understood by all that the Gentiles were not party to that promise. When the king came, the Jews rejected the kingdom. God put the whole program with the Jews on hold while he dealt with a secret He had all along. It is the "mystery" Paul speaks about in his letters and basically says all can get in on the action in a new agreement, Jews and Gentiles alike. It is not the same agreement God had with Israel. When God is done with the Gentiles and Jews in this age of grace He will pick up where He left off with the Jews and go into the book of Revelation where He will fulfill the promise of a Jewish kingdom.

Bottom line is that nobody knew about this age of grace because God kept it secret until He revealed it to Paul. The real kicker is that Jesus didn't even know about it and that is why he thought he'd be back much sooner than he has been so far. As far as Jesus knew God's overall plan, he was correct in saying some of those people to whom he spoke would be around for his return. He didn't know about our current age of grace any more than any other person alive. Again, only God knew.

Jesus not knowing is just one more scriptural proof that he was not God.

You've probably never heard any of this before. If you think it nonsense, then that's that. If, on the other hand, you would be interested in the scriptures that outline what I just said, I'd be glad to provide them for you. Just be aware that this subject might be compared to calculus in the mathematical arena. Obviously one needs a bit of background in other areas of math to understand Calculus. Same principle here.

If you want to know your will have to spend some time at it. Like I said, if you are not interested, I won't waste your time or mine. Let me know if you are interested and willing to put in some work and I'll be glad to work with you. Just understand for now that you don't understand the subject at hand. I can tell from your reply. That's not meant to be a criticism in any sense. Nobody, including myself, can only know what they've been taught. It's not a problem to not know. It is a problem when one thinks they know when they really don't. Take care.

 

[rrobs]

But, we are not like Jesus in that regard. Before Jesus was born into the human race as a child, He was the Son always existing with the Father. Thus the wording in (Is. 9:6) " unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given...and his name shall be called ...The mighty God...." The son was not born. The son was given. The Son always existed with the Father.

Good-Ole-Rebel

This is another case of adding something that really isn't there. Let's just read Isaiah 9:6 for what it says. It does not say Jesus shall be all the things. It says he shall be called all those things. There is a difference.

Isa 9:6,

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
​

This is of course a prophecy concerning the coming Messiah.

First of all, it says, "a child is born" so to say Jesus was not born is not correct. There are many verses that say Jesus was born, that he had a beginning. That right there out to be enough to realize that Isaiah does not think Jesus to be God.

To be called something is a far cry from actually being that something. My name is Rich. While quite comfortable, I would never consider myself to be among the group of people with tons of money. Living close to the Southern border, I know several people named Jesus. None are my savior though!

The Jews placed more meaning on names than we do. They would name their children with the real hope that they would live up to the meaning behind the name. Isaiah was describing the character of the coming Messiah, not saying he would be Yahweh. Don't you find it interesting that Mary and Joseph didn't actually name Jesus Wonderful, Counselor, etc.?

I think I've gone over the meaning of "god" to the ancient Jews. It meant anyone with power and authority. Look it up an any good Concordance.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Speaking about his second coming, Jesus said,

"But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Matt 24:36.
​

I understand Trinitarians say that it was the "man part" of Jesus that didn't know the day and hour. Scripturally, it's not the best argument given that there are no verses that mention a "man part" of Jesus.

But we'll assume Jesus had a God part as well as a man part. But why doesn't the third person of the trinity know the day and hour? Is he also part God and part man?

The Holy Spirit does know. The Holy Spirit is the Father. Matthew 1:18

 

[rrobs]

The Holy Spirit does know. The Holy Spirit is the Father. Matthew 1:18

Exactly. God is spirit and He is holy, hence He is often called the Holy Spirit. Holy spirit also refers to the gift God gives to all born again believers, first given on the day of Pentecost.

It is not a separate person with the same substance as God. That was never what the Jews thought. Such an heretical idea was not settled upon until the 4th century.

 

[Clear]

Hi @caraway

Can we try this ONE more time before I give up on getting an answer to my simple question. Your last two posts did not answer the question you were asked.

You claimed "if there is a hierarchy, there is no trinity".

In order to make your claim rational, you were asked WHY three things did not make a trinity.

WHY are three things not a trinity regardless of whether a hierarchy is involved pr not?
Your claim is irrational and illogical. If three horses are in a race, why do you believe there is no trinity of horses regardless which comes in first, second, or third.

Are you able to support your claim in any logical way? This claim you made appears irrational.

Clear

 

[cataway]

the trinity doctrine says all three ,God , son and holy spirit are Co-equal .
they are not equal ,scripter backs this up many times .
you want to use the word ? there are many things that have trinity in the name of a place . collages ,hospitals, churches the list go's on and on . there's even a movie called trinity .

if you want to use the word trinity go ahead its not illegal