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Temptation of Jesus?
- Thread starter Nimos
- Start date
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
For the same reason Buddha was tempted. They both showed their humanity and capability of focusing on the spiritual rather than material.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
I personally don't believe satan wanted any part of it. He knew who Jesus was. As has been said already, the Holy Spirit set up this testing. Not satan.
It was necessary due to the first Adam's failure during the testing. Christ as the Last Adam must endure the testing to be identified as the One who can wrest from satan that which Adam forfeited. (1 Cor. 15:45-47) (Rev. 5:1-7)
Good-Ole-Rebel
Here's the sad part: We rarely see kids playing outdoors these days; no matter the time of year, or how great the weather. Guess they're too busy on their mobiles etc. For us old fogeys, social media involved two tin cans held together by a taut string.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
That could very well be the idea of the passage, but not sure.
My main issue with that, unless its purely symbolic, is that these tests seems a bit unfair.
Adam/Eve, people without the knowledge of good an evil is being tested by God, to see whether or not they do as he command or what to say. Obviously they fail and condemn all humans forever. Personally I hold nothing against them, with the cards they were dealt, I think they did exactly or as good as they could be expected to do. so GO ADAM AND EVE!!!
For whatever reason, God think that maybe the first test were a bit unfair, so rather than resetting it, he puts his son(or himself), "blessed" by God through another test, where everything is stacked against Satan before hand. Jesus clearly knows the different between good and evil, he is also portrayed as being very intelligent, at least if we are to believe Luke and his visit to the temple at the age of 12 and that he is the son of God with everything such knowledge brings along. Also one must assume that Jesus is well aware of who Satan is and that God doesn't really like him and also know about Adam and Eve and the fall.
Satan then offers him basically nothing compared to what he already have, Someone suggested that we have a split between a Divine Jesus and Jesus the human and that it is the human Jesus that is being tempted here. Personally I don't see that as being very likely as there are not really any good explanation for this being the case, the way the story is told in the Gospels.
I would assume that it would be a fairly important detail to mention here, if we are talking about different "versions" of Jesus, but if we look at how the story is presented in the Gospels, I don't really think there are any evidence for it being the case.
Mark 1:12-13
12 At once the Spirit drove him into the wilderness.
13 He was in the wilderness for 40 days being tempted by Satan. He was among wild animals, and angels were ministering to him.
Matthew 4:1-11
1 After this, Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
2 After fasting for 40 days and 40 nights, he finally became hungry.
3 Then the tempter came. "Since you are the Son of God," he said, "tell these stones to become loaves of bread."
4 But he answered, "It is written, 'One must not live on bread alone, but on every word coming out of the mouth of God.'"
5 Then the devil took him to the Holy City and had him stand on the highest point of the Temple.
6 He told Jesus, "Since you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, because it is written, 'God will put his angels in charge of you,' and 'With their hands they will hold you up, so that you will never hit your foot against a rock.'"
7 Jesus responded to him, "It is also written, 'You must not tempt the Lord your God.'"
8 Once more the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, along with their splendor.
9 He told Jesus, "I will give you all these things if you will bow down and worship me!"
10 Then Jesus told him, "Go away, Satan! Because it is written, 'You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.'"
11 So the devil left him, and angels came and began ministering to him.
Luke 4:1-13
1 Then Jesus, filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan River. He was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
2 where he was being tempted by the devil for 40 days. During that time he ate nothing at all, and when they were over he became hungry.
3 The devil told him, "Since you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become a loaf of bread."
4 Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'One must not live on bread alone, but on every word of God.'"
5 The devil also took him to a high place and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in an instant.
6 He told Jesus, "I will give you all this authority, along with their glory, because it has been given to me, and I give it to anyone I please.
7 So if you will worship me, all this will be yours."
8 But Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.'"
9 The devil also took him into Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the Temple. He told Jesus, "Since you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here,
10 because it is written, 'God will put his angels in charge of you to watch over you carefully.
11 With their hands they will hold you up, so that you will never hit your foot against a rock.'"
12 Jesus answered him, "It has been said, 'You must not tempt the Lord your God.'"
13 After the devil had finished tempting Jesus in every possible way, he left him until another time.
Mark doesn't go into any details at all, the story is basically just presented as... "oh yeah, by the way, Jesus got tempted by Satan somehow... lets move on". If this were considered a very important story, I find it strange that Mark doesn't put more effort into it. Also this follows right after Jesus have been baptized as it is said. "At once..." at least according to him and Matthew, Luke is a bit more vague on this, I think. But at least to me, he seem to agree that it happened right after as he uses the word "Then". Based on how these two stories (Baptize and Temptation) are presented, it seems to be more important to Matthew and Luke than Mark at least, and as far as I can see it is not mentioned in John at all, for whatever reason, but he basically skips right over where, the other Gospels puts the event, and Jesus is doing something completely different.
I think it is fairly well agreed on, that Mark is the oldest of the Gospels, so maybe Matthew thought the story were a bit weak and added to it, Luke then copied from Matthew, which could explain why the stories are extremely similar, but written slightly differently only with minor details having been changed.
So Mark at least doesn't seem to make it all that clear that we are talking about a second test, or at least the details are so lacking, that its difficult to conclude anything. John doesn't seem to find the event important at all and skips it completely. And then you have the last two, which I can see how people would be able to read that meaning into the texts.
However even if it is another test, it doesn't really seem to go anywhere in regards to the story of Adam and Eve, and personally I don't recall it being mentioned as an example or in relation to Adam and Eve at all in the Gospels. But again maybe I just forgot it. Even in the quotes you mentioned, I don't think it is obvious or that there is a clear connection between the temptation of Jesus and that of Adam and Eve.
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Terry Sampson
Well-Known Member
Aye, ... what makes it sadder for me is when I start a story with "when I was a kid ..." and someone says: "oh, geez, here he goes again" and the younger ones don't notice because they're on their phones texting or whatever.
With me it's 'When I was a kid.....', but the result is just the same as it is or you.
However....there is one (great) advantage in being a fogey: Imagine being asked to perform some task that you really yearn to avoid. When asked for a progress report, slap your forehead, with a heartfelt 'Ah...darn!' Inevitably, the response will be summat along the lines of: 'Poor old dad, must be loosing his marbles.' And then....as the task is completed for you....comes time for a nice milky cocoa and choccy biscuits. Yum! Yum! Try it
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
That could very well be the idea of the passage, but not sure.
My main issue with that, unless its purely symbolic, is that these tests seems a bit unfair.
Adam/Eve, people without the knowledge of good an evil is being tested by God, to see whether or not they do as he command or what to say. Obviously they fail and condemn all humans forever. Personally I hold nothing against them, with the cards they were dealt, I think they did exactly or as good as they could be expected to do. so GO ADAM AND EVE!!!
For whatever reason, God think that maybe the first test were a bit unfair, so rather than resetting it, he puts his son(or himself), "blessed" by God through another test, where everything is stacked against Satan before hand. Jesus clearly knows the different between good and evil, he is also portrayed as being very intelligent, at least if we are to believe Luke and his visit to the temple at the age of 12 and that he is the son of God with everything such knowledge brings along. Also one must assume that Jesus is well aware of who Satan is and that God doesn't really like him and also know about Adam and Eve and the fall.
Satan then offers him basically nothing compared to what he already have, Someone suggested that we have a split between a Divine Jesus and Jesus the human and that it is the human Jesus that is being tempted here. Personally I don't see that as being very likely as there are not really any good explanation for this being the case, the way the story is told in the Gospels.
I would assume that it would be a fairly important detail to mention here, if we are talking about different "versions" of Jesus, but if we look at how the story is presented in the Gospels, I don't really think there are any evidence for it being the case.
Mark 1:12-13
12 At once the Spirit drove him into the wilderness.
13 He was in the wilderness for 40 days being tempted by Satan. He was among wild animals, and angels were ministering to him.
Matthew 4:1-11
1 After this, Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
2 After fasting for 40 days and 40 nights, he finally became hungry.
3 Then the tempter came. "Since you are the Son of God," he said, "tell these stones to become loaves of bread."
4 But he answered, "It is written, 'One must not live on bread alone, but on every word coming out of the mouth of God.'"
5 Then the devil took him to the Holy City and had him stand on the highest point of the Temple.
6 He told Jesus, "Since you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, because it is written, 'God will put his angels in charge of you,' and 'With their hands they will hold you up, so that you will never hit your foot against a rock.'"
7 Jesus responded to him, "It is also written, 'You must not tempt the Lord your God.'"
8 Once more the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world, along with their splendor.
9 He told Jesus, "I will give you all these things if you will bow down and worship me!"
10 Then Jesus told him, "Go away, Satan! Because it is written, 'You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.'"
11 So the devil left him, and angels came and began ministering to him.
Luke 4:1-13
1 Then Jesus, filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan River. He was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
2 where he was being tempted by the devil for 40 days. During that time he ate nothing at all, and when they were over he became hungry.
3 The devil told him, "Since you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become a loaf of bread."
4 Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'One must not live on bread alone, but on every word of God.'"
5 The devil also took him to a high place and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in an instant.
6 He told Jesus, "I will give you all this authority, along with their glory, because it has been given to me, and I give it to anyone I please.
7 So if you will worship me, all this will be yours."
8 But Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.'"
9 The devil also took him into Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the Temple. He told Jesus, "Since you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here,
10 because it is written, 'God will put his angels in charge of you to watch over you carefully.
11 With their hands they will hold you up, so that you will never hit your foot against a rock.'"
12 Jesus answered him, "It has been said, 'You must not tempt the Lord your God.'"
13 After the devil had finished tempting Jesus in every possible way, he left him until another time.
Mark doesn't go into any details at all, the story is basically just presented as... "oh yeah, by the way, Jesus got tempted by Satan somehow... lets move on". If this were considered a very important story, I find it strange that Mark doesn't put more effort into it. Also this follows right after Jesus have been baptized as it is said. "At once..." at least according to him and Matthew, Luke is a bit more vague on this, I think. But at least to me, he seem to agree that it happened right after as he uses the word "Then". Based on how these two stories (Baptize and Temptation) are presented, it seems to be more important to Matthew and Luke than Mark at least, and as far as I can see it is not mentioned in John at all, for whatever reason, but he basically skips right over where, the other Gospels puts the event, and Jesus is doing something completely different.
I think it is fairly well agreed on, that Mark is the oldest of the Gospels, so maybe Matthew thought the story were a bit weak and added to it, Luke then copied from Matthew, which could explain why the stories are extremely similar, but written slightly differently only with minor details having been changed.
So Mark at least doesn't seem to make it all that clear that we are talking about a second test, or at least the details are so lacking, that its difficult to conclude anything. John doesn't seem to find the event important at all and skips it completely. And then you have the last two, which I can see how people would be able to read that meaning into the texts.
However even if it is another test, it doesn't really seem to go anywhere in regards to the story of Adam and Eve, and personally I don't recall it being mentioned as an example or in relation to Adam and Eve at all in the Gospels. But again maybe I just forgot it. Even in the quotes you mentioned, I don't think it is obvious or that there is a clear connection between the temptation of Jesus and that of Adam and Eve.
In the Scripture I gave Jesus is called the 'Last Adam' and Adam is called the 'first Adam'. If that is not a connection to Adam, what is?
Nimos
Well-Known Member
But I think that is taken a bit out of context. Because if you read the whole story:
1 Corinthians 15:35-49
35 But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? What kind of body will they have when they come back?"
36 You fool! The seed you plant does not come to life unless it dies,
37 and what you plant is not the form that it will be, but a bare kernel, whether it is wheat or something else.
38 But God gives the plant the form he wants it to have, and to each kind of seed its own form.
39 Not all flesh is the same. Humans have one kind of flesh, animals in general have another, birds have another, and fish have still another.
40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the splendor of those in heaven is of one kind, and that of those on earth is of another.
41 One kind of splendor belongs to the sun, another to the moon, and still another to the stars. In fact, one star differs from another star in splendor.
42 This is how it will be at the resurrection of the dead. What is planted is decaying, what is raised cannot decay.
43 The body is planted in a state of dishonor but is raised in a state of splendor. It is planted in weakness but is raised in power.
44 It is planted a physical body but is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 This, indeed, is what is written: "The first man, Adam, became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 The spiritual does not come first, but the physical does, and then comes the spiritual.
47 The first man came from the dust of the earth; the second man came from heaven.
48 Those who are made of the dust are like the man from the dust; those who are heavenly are like the man who is from heaven.
49 Just as we have borne the likeness of the man who was made from dust, we will also bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
The story is about the resurrection in the afterlife and basically how one will look, depending on how you want to phrase it. Besides mentioning the first and last Adam, nothing in these verses refer to the temptation of Jesus and this having anything to do with a new test. But just as in the beginning of this verse, it tries to explain how it works:
46 The spiritual does not come first, but the physical does, and then comes the spiritual.
47 The first man came from the dust of the earth; the second man came from heaven.
48 Those who are made of the dust are like the man from the dust; those who are heavenly are like the man who is from heaven.
49 Just as we have borne the likeness of the man who was made from dust, we will also bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
Just because the names are used in the same verse, doesn't mean that its relevant for a specific topic. Wouldn't it be like saying that this verse proof it as well, because the name Adam and Jesus are both used. Even though nothing about the temptation is mentioned here either?
Romans 5:15
15 But God's free gift is not like Adam's offense. For if many people died as the result of one man's offense, how much more have God's grace and the free gift given through the kindness of one man, Jesus the Messiah, been showered on many people!
In Revelation it seems strange why nothing about it is mentioned:
Revelation 1:5
5 and from Jesus the Messiah, the witness, the faithful one, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To the one who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood
Its is even mentioned that it is through his blood we are freed from sin. Wouldn't it have made sense to say something like: "Through his ability to withstand Satans temptation and through his blood has he freed us from sins." if this were actually important in regards to Adam and Eve. Because Sin and Adam and Eve is connected, as that is made pretty clear in the bible, so no reason to mention him here, because we already know how sin was brought into the world.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter that the temptation of Christ is not mentioned. The fact that Christ is named the Last Adam shows connection to the First Adam. The fact that Christ is named the Second Man shows connection to the first man, Adam.
Christ's victory over satan in the temptation was vital in His role as Redeemer. As was His virgin birth. But the virgin birth is not always mentioned when salvation is addressed in Scripture. It doesn't need to always be mentioned to have been an important part.
Good-Ole-Rebel
InChrist
Free4ever
Interesting, I guess I missed that thread, but the theme of Jesus paying for the sins of the world appears to be very consistent throughout the NT and the entire Bible from my perspective.
But thanks for the “almost like”.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
But you don't find it interesting or weird, that If this were about the original sin, which is basically what its all about, when it comes down to it. Because without original sin there would be no purpose for Jesus, and God would simply be a creator and nothing more.
And despite all that, Mark which is the oldest Gospel simply shows very little interest in this and spare two lines for it? And John doesn't care to mention it at all.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Well-Known Member
I find Scripture always interesting but never weird. From our 'temporal view' , yes, without original sin there would be no purpose for Jesus. But God's plans are eternal and He knows them from the beginning to the end. (Acts 15:18) Thus Christ is seen as slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8)
Concerning the Gospels of Mark and John, the Holy Spirit did not see it as important to what He was saying ,so as to include it, as He did in the others.
Good-Ole-Rebel
exchemist
Veteran Member
Abelard saw it differently, as - so I learned in that thread - does St. John's gospel.
The "moral influence" theory of atonement is the interpretation (out of about four, I think) that makes the most sense to me, if we accept that God is loving and forgiving. But I'll stop, as I don't want to derail this thread.
Jesus never once said that he was God or even the equal of his Father in any way. The Bible calls Jesus God's "holy servant" (Acts 4:30)...how can one part of God be the servant of his equal self? How can a son be his own Father? What nonsense!
Interestingly, the devil never challenged God's power....only his sovereignty...his right to set the rules.
To challenge God's power would have meant instant death....no contest.
When satan said to the woman in Eden "You will become like God" if they ate from the forbidden tree, he was actually speaking about himself. He would be "like God" if they disobeyed their Creator, separating themselves from him and choosing a new default ruler and god.
Three times the devil gave himself and his intentions away.....the first time in Eden, wanting to usurp God's place in human life.....then with Job, challenging this faithful man's motives in serving God and testing that faithfulness to a ridiculous degree.....and thirdly, with the temptations offered to Jesus, seeing if Jesus had the same weaknesses as the only other perfect humans who had ever lived.
Satan wanted to be a god....he wanted to turn faithful ones against their Creator so that he could harvest them, and he was willing to pay for an act of worship from God's most trusted son. (which would have made his mission as savior, an utter failure)
The devil said something interesting when he offered Jesus all the Kingdoms of the word in exchange for an act of worship...just one act would have been a victory for him.
Luke 4:5-8....
"So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time. 6 Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 If you, therefore, do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.” 8 In reply Jesus said to him: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”
If the devil was not the ruler of all those kingdoms, then how could he offer them to Jesus? The devil said that they had been "delivered" to him and that he could give rulership to 'whomever he wished'......what does that tell us about world rulership down through history and why it has been filled with bloodshed and violence, (1 John 5:19)....often perpetrated by the church itself.
Each temptation that was presented to Jesus was met with a quote from God's word.
What were the issues raised by the devil in Eden?
1) That God lied to them....the devil said that they would not die, but God said that they would. Who was the liar?
2) That the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was being kept from them because God knew it would make them like him. Was that true?
3) He drew attention to the fruit itself so that the woman saw that it was desirable. He created a doubt and fed it. The desire of the eyes did the rest. How do marketers sell products to tempt people into buying what they do not need?
So, did humans become like God...or did they become like satan?
But these issues were slanderous and God was innocent of these charges....should he have just eliminated the rebels there and then? What would that have proven? Only that God was more powerful...the devil never challenged God's power but he called into question his character, the rightness of the rules he set as their Sovereign, and what would result if he allowed the scenario to play out naturally?
How many other angels were observing the events and wondering about those questions themselves? What was to prevent another satan from doing it all over again?
God allowed ample time for the devil and his new worshippers to do whatever they pleased.....but he removed access to the "tree of life" so that the humans could no longer partake of it and live forever.....and he kicked them out of the garden that he had planted and so generously stocked just for them with every variety of fruit......and he cursed the ground outside of the garden so that they would know how easy life could have been if they had just obeyed him.
God would show these rebels exactly what it meant to live without God's blessing and protection. But Adam's children would not be left without knowledge of God and each one wold have opportunity to demonstrate what their first parents did not.....love and loyalty for their Creator.
This is what the devil's temptations were for with Jesus.....to see if he too would fall for the same selfish lures that had led the other three into sin.
Jesus passed with flying colors, proving that Adam and his wife had no excuse for their choices. They were not persecuted or threatened with torture or a violent death, in fact their test was relatively painless. They had every other tree in the garden to choose from, but just that one was placed as God's exclusive property. Stealing from God was an offense punishable by death....they chose the action and paid the penalty.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
I tend to agree with that, I think the evidence for the trinity is very weak compared to Jesus simply being the son of God. But a lot of people, if not the majority think that it is the case, so have to take that into account as well.
I can see how you could understand it to mean that. So let me clarify what I actual meant with it. I didn't mean like Satan challenging God to an one on one.
But rather like me trying to tempt you with a Ford escort. While you're the child of Bill Gates with the ressources he have. So me trying to tempt you with something so insignificant would just be plain stupid of me. And even that contrast in regards to "Power" between me and Bill Gates, is nothing compared to that of Satan and God.
That is what I meant, with there being nothing that Satan could really tempt Jesus or God with. Except that Jesus might be able to get all of what Satan promise here and now, if he just bend his knee. But if we are talking God (Trinity), it would be like trying to tempt Bill gates himself with a Ford escort, which would make the temptation attempt even more stupid.
What I find strange when listening to religious people and hearing them explain these things, and it is not just you, but in general, also in lectures from Pastors etc. Is how the "characters" in these stories changes from one moment to another. There seem to be very little consistency in what they can do and what they can't do. Sort of like watching a movie and you end up shaking your head at some of the things they do, when its obviously wrong, or when they suddenly get some knowledge that they couldn't have, because they have to move the story along.
If we look at some of the characters in the bible in a quick overview:
Jesus
He is said to be very intelligent, the son of God, have knowledge of both the power of God and that of Satan. He is devoted and clearly aware of who he is. he is the most educated person in regards to the scriptures and what God actually mean.
Satan
The bad guy also portrait as being highly intelligent and capable of deceiving people, better than anyone else. It is not exactly clear what "powers" he have besides that.
God
Well he is God, so can do and knows everything.
But when the stories are then explained, it make no sense for Satan to even attempt to trick Jesus. He failed with Job, despite having been given the power from God, to pretty much do what he wanted to, except kill Job. So he kills his children and caused a lot of pain and suffering to Job and those around him. God is clearly happy, for some strange reason, even though Jobs children, which had nothing to do with the wager at all, were killed in front of him, while he did nothing.
Eventually Satan fail, now this were when he were given the power by God to do what he pleases. Yet being intelligent and him not even able to tempt or shake a mere devoted human, would make one think that he would be able to figure out, that he have no chance at all in regards to tempting Jesus without any form of powers.
This is simply not consistence in regards to Satan's character, He is well aware of the power of God, he knows about the angels, heaven etc. and he knows who Jesus is. So we have this sudden change in character, where he goes from being portrayed as a very intelligent being, to one that is utter stupid, because the story need to be moved along or some point just has to be made.
Its sort of like how God is sacrificing his son for us, which is told like its just absolutely remarkable that God and Jesus would do this for us. There is nothing remarkable about it, as he is raised again 3 days later, so he weren't sacrificed. Besides that God could have removed the sin in any other way he wanted, why he have to sacrifice his son, is only important to the story being told, but makes no sense logically.
God being all powerful and all knowing, just as with the story of Job, knows that Satan is going to fail, Satan ought to know it as well, the moment God agree to the bet, and he must know that Jesus is not going to fail.
Then you have the temptation of turning stone into bread, but what is the temptation here? Jesus apparently believe that this is not ok to do, If he is hungry? Why? because they want to make a connection to the forbidden fruit? Nonsense, because nothing is being presented in the temptation story, that Jesus is not allowed to do this. God haven't told him he couldn't, so what is exactly the issue? Nothing, at all. The reason this has to be seen as a temptation is, so Jesus can say that you should not live off bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God. Again simply to deliver a punchline.
So Satan try to lie or deceive Jesus with him having the power to give Jesus these kingdoms etc. But staying true to both Satan and Jesus as characters, its just plain stupid. Because all of them in the story knows what is going on. Jesus know that Satan is a lying, Satan knows Jesus is the son of God, God knows that Satan is going to fail.
To me it just seems weird, how these characters changes throughout the stories and what they are capable of and not, depending on when it is needed or not, to get a point across.
Depends how you look at it, because they didn't die. At least not instantly, Adam lived to be 930 years, which is rather well done I think.
No, clearly God lied. It made them nothing like God, as we even today are in no agreement in regards to what is good and evil. Even God had to give the Jews a law to help them, so obviously they couldn't see the different between them either, as God said they would.
And this is where the whole story falls apart, exactly as with the above, about having to move the story along. Because this only make sense if they knew the different between good and evil in the first place. There is absolutely no logical reason, why Eve at that very moment would think that Satan were doing something evil, or good for that matter. She had no clue what it meant.
The issue here, is that people read this story from their own perspective knowing what is meant with good and evil. But Adam and Eve didn't, which makes a huge difference. But we need this event to happen because the story has to move along.
But stopping up for just one second and trying to pretend what it must have been like for Eve, when not knowing the difference. Clearly she is in no position to make a judgement that we are. So this comparison to the temptation simply makes no sense if you ask me.
And personally, Adam and Eve are my two absolute favorite characters in the bible. They are complete underdogs here, given no abilities to defend themself. No warning about Satan, God not really taking care of them and think its fair to test them regardless of their lack of abilities. And when they finally and unavoidable fail, they are punished for it. And not enough with that, even after their death, people still refer to them as being guilty for why there is suffering and evil in the world, with no regards to how poorly they were treated in the first place. To me that is absolutely rubbish and not fair towards them.
In contrast you have Jesus which have been given everything and who can not fail, he can heal the sick and perform miracles etc. Is promised to have everything and people think that it is amazing, when he withstand Satan, really?
Again this is from your perspective knowing what is meant by it. Yet as mentioned above the words that people associated with them, such as "stealing" which is basically referring to them as thieves, and not something we associate with anything positive. It is then suggested that its is perfectly fair and understandable, that the punishment for this is death. Because it were their own fault and therefore have to pay the price for it.
Which makes no sense, its like pointing fingers at a baby taking a toy from another baby and argue that clearly it reasonable to punishing it for doing so, because it chose to steal the toy. No one in their right mind would draw such conclusion, based on the facts that are given. Simply because the assumption is, that Adam and Eve clearly should have known better. Despite them not knowing the difference.
Again, its not directed towards you in particular or JWs, but in general in how people seem to approach these stories. There are close to no consistency in regards to what characters can do, what they ought to know or how to behave. It just seem to change to whatever suits the point of the given story. And I find that very strange.
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In God's dealings with humans, his faithful ones have never been in the majority...just the opposite in fact. (Matthew 7:13-14) Running with the crowd has never been an option for those who want to remain loyal to God in a world ruled by the devil. (1 John 5:19) Being the odd man out is a test all by itself.
You might remember that Jesus was not raised in a wealthy family. They were in fact, quite poor. But their spirituality made them rich in God's eyes. Therefore satan's temptations would have been very real to Jesus.
Yes, but growing up in a poor Jewish family taught Jesus the value of faithfulness to his God. It was only at his baptism that his former life in heaven was revealed to him. He retreated away into the wilderness for 40 days and nights in order to commune with his Father and receive his instructions. Up until then he was just plain old Jesus, firstborn son (as the opinion was) of the carpenter Joseph.
He is as powerful as any other angel but he's been around since the beginning of creation so he knows exactly how to milk any situation to further his own agenda. His presence in the garden was an assignment of responsibility as a guardian, but his observations there only fueled his desire for what God had.....he wanted to be a god and no one in existence could see him as such because they were either his equal or his superior....but humankind!....here were intelligent creatures of lower station to whom he could become a god.
Just because God is Omniscient, doesn't mean that he chooses to know everything. If you were a Master Locksmith and you had a key that could unlock every lock in the world.....would you have to unlock every lock just because you could?
Giving humans and angels free will means that God sometimes chooses not to know the outcome of something and allows our free will to determine what we will do...then he will address a response to our actions. The Bible is a book about God's responses. He acted only once....with creation...after that he only reacted to the decisions made by his intelligent creation.
Since Jesus was in every way human, he was in the same situation as Adam and his wife. He had God's instructions but he did not deviate from them. Adam and his wife had one simple command that did not cause them any hardship whatsoever...and yet they still couldn't obey it. Given a temptation that the good life they had been given could be even better, they fell for the devil's deception.
Don't forget that satan has been able to tempt the majority of mankind to defect from the Creator....to invent other gods and to practice false worship....but when he comes across someone like Job.....he wants to break him. Job is there representing all of us because satan's challenge was....
Job 1:
“Is it for nothing that Job has feared God? 10 Have you not put up a protective hedge around him and his house and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his livestock has spread out in the land. 11 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your very face.” 12 Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Look! Everything that he has is in your hand. Only do not lay your hand on the man himself!”
Satan asserted that Job only served his God for all the good things he had....take that all away and see how loyal he will be....?
Job passed that test, so the devil came back with another test....
God said..."Have you taken note of my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth. He is an upright man of integrity, fearing God and shunning what is bad. He is still holding firmly to his integrity, even though you try to incite me against him to destroy him for no reason.” 4 But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. 5 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face."
Again satan's accusations were proven false but this time it wasn't just Job under trial...he said..."Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life." Not just that 'Job would give for his life', but "a man" including all men...humankind....all of us.
We are all under the same test, from the same enemy. Will we pass?
To make those assertions is to misunderstand completely what redemption is. The redemption laws in Israel provided for a person who was sold into slavery for failure to pay a debt. A benefactor, either a friend or relative could pay the amount owed and free the slave. The amount owing was the exact amount to be paid...nothing more and nothing less.
When Jesus became our redeemer, all he had to do to pay Adam's debt was to pay a "life for a life" which was stipulated in God's law.
Jesus paid the price by laying down his perfect life for the perfect life Adam lost for his children. In paying the debt there was no reason for him to remain in the grave. As his Father's most trusted servant, and commander of the angelic forces, he still had a lot of work to do. Part one of his mission was completed but it was not over by a long shot.
Satan was after his moment of glory.....he got what he wanted and God used his defection as a warning example to other angels, some of whom he persuaded to join him. He used Adam and Eve's defection as a warning example for us humans too....some were just never going to get the lesson. Their destiny was already written.....death. But the devil and his cronies will take as many down with them as they can.
As the apostle Peter stated, "that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day." (2 Peter 3:8)
Go through the genealogies of all those early humans and see...not one of them lived a "day" in God's counting of time.
That "day" allowed them to fulfill the first part of God's mandate to "fill the earth".
It was the devil who told that lie...remember? God placed the decision of judging what was good or evil in his own jurisdiction....humans were to rely on God to tell them what was good and what was not....deciding for themselves has never worked. If they had just listened and obeyed, we would not be having this conversation.
It wasn't that they didn't "know" what was good and what was bad, they had just never experienced what it meant to decide those things for themselves . Eve knew that disobeying God was bad...but she did it anyway because she believed a lie and abused her free will. Was there any excuse for what she did? I can't find one. If you know the penalty before you commit the crime, why complain when it is implemented?
Eve was the newest member of the human race which made her more vulnerable to the temptation that the devil offered....but he knew that, and used the woman to get to his prime target....the man. Had he approached the man first, I believe that he would have made a very different choice. But targeting the woman was just the leverage satan needed. He forced Adam to divide his loyalties and he made the wrong choice for the wrong reason....and here we are. Divide and conquer is still a very successful strategy.
That is a very skewed version of how it really was. These perfect beings were in no way "underdogs"....they were selfish and disobedient and the fact is that they knew there was no coming back from this. There is no a single word of remorse from either of them. God then went to work to rescue their children.
That is exactly what the Bible says. Both of them knew God's law, and broke it. That tree was not given to them and they had been warned about the penalty, so there was no excuse. It wasn't a mistake...it was willful and deliberate sin and it cost every human on earth their life.
"Underdogs"? I don't think so. Traitors...yes.
Adam and his wife were not babies. They were created as perfect, intelligent adults with a brain and a mental capacity for infinite learning. But they knew enough to know that what they were doing was bad. They may not have been able to imagine the ramifications because the temptation from satan sounded so good...but the sting in the tail was that they would lose all the good things that God had so graciously and generously given them.
Satan had no idea that God would bar access to the tree of life and that he would lose his human worshippers in death.....so it means that he has to constantly recruit new ones.....look at how he accomplishes that....and look at the success rate for this being whose time is nearly up....he is pulling out all the stops now....he is no longer subtle...he is in all our faces now, trying to turn us away from God in any way he can. Morally and spiritually he is luring unsuspecting ones into joining him in death.....by offering them a thrill ride.....but it will end in eternal death.
We can choose our path.....
Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
That would make Jesus 'lukewarm' then. A direct contradiction considering how 'lukewarm' Christians are viewed.