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Do You Believe in Adam and Eve?

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
So no Adam and Eve and no allegory/hidden meaningful message in the story?

You asked. Here is my hidden meaningful message. It's worth every penny of my fee:

At some point in the evolution of people, there was the development of the cognitive ability to conceive of good and evil, right and wrong. The former existence of ignorance of the bipolar world ended at that time and metaphorically these humans or proto-humans left the 'garden of ignorance'. "Eating the apple" was a metaphor for the evolutionary step involved.

Before modern science was developed, there was no intellectual basis for stating how evolution worked and consequently there was a great deal of magical thinking and superstition.

The sages who wrote the Bible knew this and put factual information in the guise of a story that would help people by giving them a reason why their lives were so miserable and pain filled. And in the era of fear and hope it provided a training tool to ensure decent behavior on the part of people as well as a tool to teach children what to do and what not to do.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
You asked. Here is my hidden meaningful message. It's worth every penny of my fee:

At some point in the evolution of people, there was the development of the cognitive ability to conceive of good and evil, right and wrong. The former existence of ignorance of the bipolar world ended at that time and metaphorically these humans or proto-humans left the 'garden of ignorance'. "Eating the apple" was a metaphor for the evolutionary step involved.

Before modern science was developed, there was no intellectual basis for stating how evolution worked and consequently there was a great deal of magical thinking and superstition.

The sages who wrote the Bible knew this and put factual information in the guise of a story that would help people by giving them a reason why their lives were so miserable and pain filled. And in the era of fear and hope it provided a training tool to ensure decent behavior on the part of people as well as a tool to teach children what to do and what not to do.

Ok but then couldn't God also simply be a useful story created by the ancients to provide guidance to man?
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
adameve.jpg


Scientific knowledge does not support the existence of an Adam or an Eve.

So if you do believe Adam and Eve existed, how do you square that with scientific knowledge.

Or if you see it as an allegory, then why not see God as an allegory too? Just a story created by ancient man to convey moral ideas.

Or do you just dismiss scientific theory altogether?

For the most part I see the stories in Genesis as literature and myth meant to convey truths about human experience. The story of Adam and Eve explains what it is like for human beings to live in an amoral Universe yet have this desire, or even social requirement, to be moral.

IMO God has a basis in objective psychological experience but not demostratively in non-psychological physical experience.
 

MonkeyFire

Well-Known Member
I believe that forbidden fruit of good and evil is war, violence, and hatred, and that Christ is the embodiment of pacifism. I do believe.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Ok but then couldn't God also simply be a useful story created by the ancients to provide guidance to man?
The intellectual conception of God especially as wrathful for those who did not obey and rewarding those who did - certainly.

But since I believe in God, my answer is obviously no. Since I quoted Good Omens a little while ago, I remembered something about the nature of God's creation that I found true and fun: You start thinking: it can't be a great cosmic game of chess, it has to be just very complicated Solitaire.”
 

robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
adameve.jpg


Scientific knowledge does not support the existence of an Adam or an Eve.

So if you do believe Adam and Eve existed, how do you square that with scientific knowledge.

Or if you see it as an allegory, then why not see God as an allegory too? Just a story created by ancient man to convey moral ideas.

Or do you just dismiss scientific theory altogether?
I think that, "Adam" means both "red-blood" and "representative." So, going with "representative," I can see it as monkeys were gradually becoming human, and then viola one represented humanity at just the right point.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
The intellectual conception of God especially as wrathful for those who did not obey and rewarding those who did - certainly.

But since I believe in God, my answer is obviously no. Since I quoted Good Omens a little while ago, I remembered something about the nature of God's creation that I found true and fun: You start thinking: it can't be a great cosmic game of chess, it has to be just very complicated Solitaire.”

Watch some of it on Netflix, I think. Kind of like its irreverence.

I suppose the only idea of a God that I could make sense of is one completely separate from the universe. So there's no possible way for man to possess any knowledge about such a being.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
adameve.jpg


Scientific knowledge does not support the existence of an Adam or an Eve.

So if you do believe Adam and Eve existed, how do you square that with scientific knowledge.

Or if you see it as an allegory, then why not see God as an allegory too? Just a story created by ancient man to convey moral ideas.

Or do you just dismiss scientific theory altogether?
What do you dismiss scientific theory altogether? I'm just a skeptical. I don't take scientific theories at face value. It's all about the data going in. And the tests that are done also each have adjustable parameters that can be altered according to preference, assumption and bias.

Nothing is concrete in science. Every theory we thought was so solid is eventually overturned for something else. Such as newton's model. That theory served it's purpose but it was proven incorrect; even though at the time all the evidence supported it.

So, no I don't dismiss scientific theory altogether. I just question individual conclusions made by scientists. If we stop doing that much; then we're surrendering our objectivity and basically admitting we aren't even smart enough to think for ourselves.

The fact is there is a lot left to be explained by science and just slapping labels on something doesn't count as really understanding it.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Actually, it does. Mitochondrial Eve, and Y-Chromosome Adam have been shown to be the source of all modern humans, that the gene pool bottlenecked at these two. Granted, they live 150,000 years apart or so, but nonetheless, there is a truth that all humans can be traced back to one Adam and one Eve, or one male and one female.

I'm not saying of course this means the Bible "knew" this magically somehow. Rather, in its vision of human origins, they kind of got that right. ;)




Aside from that genetic factoid above, I would say the characters Adam and Eve really existed in our history as an image of our own humanness. We created these parents in our mythologies, and who we are as humans gives them a reality, far greater than just being mere people. They are symbolic of the whole, and that makes them us and us them. None of this of course has anything to do with "scientific knowledge" It goes beyond just simply that.


Allegory is a little weak of a word. Archetypal forms, is more like it. We see ourselves in them. It is a story created by ancient men, yes, but it's poetry, and that is what makes it truth.


There no need to for me.
So the first man and first woman lived 150,000 years apart. Wonder how they ever had children.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Watch some of it on Netflix, I think. Kind of like its irreverence.

I suppose the only idea of a God that I could make sense of is one completely separate from the universe. So there's no possible way for man to possess any knowledge about such a being.
I watched the whole thing - Amazon Prime. And then bought the book. I loved the irreverence.

But to get serious, I know, I know, I do believe in the very very rare possibility of people being God conscious - thus God being both transcendent and imminent.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Ok but then couldn't God also simply be a useful story created by the ancients to provide guidance to man?
He could, but that is not what the allegory we are discussing is saying.

The essential messages of the Genesis 1 and 2 allegories seem to me to be in describing:
- the role of God as creator of nature and his relationship with it,
- the creation of Man by God and the special nature of the relationship between God and Man who is said to be a bit like God in a sense (made "in his image") and thus is able to communicate with God,
- the acquisition by Man of moral knowledge and the double-edged nature of this loss of innocence.

As to the nature of God, you could I suppose, like Einstein, equate God with the so-called "laws of nature". However that would clearly not be the personal God of the bible, who communicates with Man and is asserted to care for mankind, or at least for the Chosen People, in spite of their failings. No allegorical reading of it can take that aspect away: it runs through the whole thing.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So the first man and first woman lived 150,000 years apart. Wonder how they ever had children.
They had sex with others who were alive at that time. The mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosome Adam never had sex with each other. What the bottleneck shows is that everyone is related genetically to those two individuals. However, that said, they are now saying that they may have lived at the same time.

"The Book of Genesis puts Adam and Eve together in the Garden of Eden, but geneticists’ version of the duo — the ancestors to whom the Y chromosomes and mitochondrial DNA of today’s humans can be traced — were thought to have lived tens of thousands of years apart. Now, two major studies of modern humans’ Y chromosomes suggest that ‘Y-chromosome Adam’ and ‘mitochondrial Eve’ may have lived around the same time after all"

Genetic Adam and Eve did not live too far apart in time
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Actually, it does. Mitochondrial Eve, and Y-Chromosome Adam have been shown to be the source of all modern humans, that the gene pool bottlenecked at these two. Granted, they live 150,000 years apart or so, but nonetheless, there is a truth that all humans can be traced back to one Adam and one Eve, or one male and one female.

I'm not saying of course this means the Bible "knew" this magically somehow. Rather, in its vision of human origins, they kind of got that right. ;)




Aside from that genetic factoid above, I would say the characters Adam and Eve really existed in our history as an image of our own humanness. We created these parents in our mythologies, and who we are as humans gives them a reality, far greater than just being mere people. They are symbolic of the whole, and that makes them us and us them. None of this of course has anything to do with "scientific knowledge" It goes beyond just simply that.


Allegory is a little weak of a word. Archetypal forms, is more like it. We see ourselves in them. It is a story created by ancient men, yes, but it's poetry, and that is what makes it truth.


There no need to for me.
I don't think this is quite right. There is no suggestion of any bottleneck.

There were tens of thousands of women (and men of course) around at the time she lived, but the offspring of these others have no longer got any direct descendants purely through the female line alive today. Though they could have had a few left, say 200 years ago.

Mitochondrial Eve is simply the label given to the last common female ancestor to whom all women alive today can be traced through an unbroken female line of descent. This woman is not a fixed individual: when branch lines of heredity die out, the last common ancestor moves forward in time.

So I do not see this as a particularly remarkable finding. It is simply the application of DNA analysis to any population of genetically related organisms. What it gives is an idea of how far back in time the heredity of today's population can be traced.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
What do you dismiss scientific theory altogether? I'm just a skeptical. I don't take scientific theories at face value. It's all about the data going in. And the tests that are done also each have adjustable parameters that can be altered according to preference, assumption and bias.

Nothing is concrete in science. Every theory we thought was so solid is eventually overturned for something else. Such as newton's model. That theory served it's purpose but it was proven incorrect; even though at the time all the evidence supported it.

So, no I don't dismiss scientific theory altogether. I just question individual conclusions made by scientists. If we stop doing that much; then we're surrendering our objectivity and basically admitting we aren't even smart enough to think for ourselves.

The fact is there is a lot left to be explained by science and just slapping labels on something doesn't count as really understanding it.

It is not accurate to say that Newton's model has been proven incorrect. Saying that may falsely give you the sense that science is superficial or capricious. Newton's mechanics are still good enough for 99% of the technologies we have created and the difference between Newton's mechanics and the more complete relativity theory is negligible in most of our practical applications.

That makes Newtonian mechanics still a deep truth about our reality and one that represents just how stable scientific knowledge is.

In a similar way, every scientific theory is probably correct, it is only the progression of technologies built on the knowledge we have gained from those theories that is likely to put additional context to those theories without completely negating them. In this way, scientific knowledge, unlike most other kinds of multi-generational knowledge, progresses and even self-corrects without becoming invalid.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I don't think this is quite right. There is no suggestion of any bottleneck.

There were tens of thousands of women (and men of course) around at the time she lived, but the offspring of these others have no longer got any direct descendants purely through the female line alive today. Though they could have had a few left, say 200 years ago.

Mitochondrial Eve is simply the label given to the last common female ancestor to whom all women alive today can be traced through an unbroken female line of descent. This woman is not a fixed individual: when branch lines of heredity die out, the last common ancestor moves forward in time.

So I do not see this as a particularly remarkable finding. It is simply the application of DNA analysis to any population of genetically related organisms. What it gives is an idea of how far back in time the heredity of today's population can be traced.

Unfortunately the phrase mitochondrial Eve does create a lot of confusion especially for those wanting to rescue some sense of literality from the Biblical story of Adam and Eve.

I'm not always sure that those who espouse the virtues of science understand what you have explained.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
He could, but that is not what the allegory we are discussing is saying.

The essential messages of the Genesis 1 and 2 allegories seem to me to be in describing:
- the role of God as creator of nature and his relationship with it,
- the creation of Man by God and the special nature of the relationship between God and Man who is said to be a bit like God in a sense (made "in his image") and thus is able to communicate with God,
- the acquisition by Man of moral knowledge and the double-edged nature of this loss of innocence.

As to the nature of God, you could I suppose, like Einstein, equate God with the so-called "laws of nature". However that would clearly not be the personal God of the bible, who communicates with Man and is asserted to care for mankind, or at least for the Chosen People, in spite of their failings. No allegorical reading of it can take that aspect away: it runs through the whole thing.

I wouldn't devalue the fact that the God of the Bible is also the God of Reality and the human experience of that reality. In that sense God is the author of the amoral laws of nature and that quality is very much in focus in many of the stories in the Bible with Job being the most obvious.

Perhaps for me God is both this amoral agent (at least from a human perspective) and a promoter of morality if not a precise and regular rewarder for morality. There is quite a tension between God's caring for humanity and His willingness to punish with mortality that same humanity. It is, of course, in the literalists best interest to focus on God's morality if only out of self-interest.
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
adameve.jpg


Scientific knowledge does not support the existence of an Adam or an Eve.

So if you do believe Adam and Eve existed, how do you square that with scientific knowledge.

Or if you see it as an allegory, then why not see God as an allegory too? Just a story created by ancient man to convey moral ideas.

Or do you just dismiss scientific theory altogether?

Where do you get this "scientific knowledge" not supporting this.

Of course it does! There were first humans, after generations of non-human primates. Maybe they were called Gur and Ogg, but they were our original humans.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member

Who said Adam and Eve were this ugly?
confused0060.gif


Scientific knowledge does not support the existence of an Adam or an Eve.

Who is to say that "scientific knowledge" knows it all? They believe that amoebas became dinosaurs.....and many ridicule Bible believers who simply state that all that exists does not give the remotest appearance of being accidental. Science cannot begin to tell us how life began, or how it supposedly evolved into all the forms of life that have ever existed. Its all guesswork.

Do you understand how much of what science 'suggests' about the diversity of life on this planet, is based on actual fact? Not much, otherwise they would never have to use the language of supposition, which is always in their literature. When you "might have" or "could have" used to describe something that they assume to have taken place.....that is not the language of fact. Most people never see it until it is pointed out.

Let me give you an example....from The evolution of whales

Without looking too closely at the diagram, what do you automatically assume about the creatures depicted on it?

"The evolution of whales

The first thing to notice on this evogram is that hippos are the closest living relatives of whales, but they are not the ancestors of whales. In fact, none of the individual animals on the evogram is the direct ancestor of any other, as far as we know. That's why each of them gets its own branch on the family tree.


whale_evo.jpg

Hippos are large and aquatic, like whales, but the two groups evolved those features separately from each other. We know this because the ancient relatives of hippos called anthracotheres (not shown here) were not large or aquatic. Nor were the ancient relatives of whales that you see pictured on this tree — such as Pakicetus. Hippos likely evolved from a group of anthracotheres about 15 million years ago, the first whales evolved over 50 million years ago, and the ancestor of both these groups was terrestrial.

These first whales, such as Pakicetus, were typical land animals. They had long skulls and large carnivorous teeth. From the outside, they don't look much like whales at all. However, their skulls — particularly in the ear region, which is surrounded by a bony wall — strongly resemble those of living whales and are unlike those of any other mammal. Often, seemingly minor features provide critical evidence to link animals that are highly specialized for their lifestyles (such as whales) with their less extreme-looking relatives."


Read the dialogue and look at the diagram.
The diagram looks as if all these creatures are part of an evolutionary chain, but the dialogue says that none of them are direct ancestors of the others.....:shrug: Is this misleading? I think so.

The only thing that links Pakicetus (that four legged furry creature second from the top) to a whale is a similar looking ear bone......really?
confused0087.gif


So if you do believe Adam and Eve existed, how do you square that with scientific knowledge.

I'll take the word of someone who was there over someone who wants God to disappear because he is inconvenient.

Or if you see it as an allegory, then why not see God as an allegory too? Just a story created by ancient man to convey moral ideas.

Nope...I see it as exactly what the Bible says happened...I just don't believe in the timeframe given by YEC's. There is no way that creation took place in 7 literal days and that the earth and everything on it is just over 6,000 years old. What nonsense!

We know that the earth is billions of years old....we also know that creatures that existed before man (many of which are no longer here) are also much older than we are. The way to get the Bible and science to back one another up is to separate the facts from the fiction...as both tend to proffer ideas that cannot be proven.

True science and an accurate understanding of the Bible make this possible IMO.

Or do you just dismiss scientific theory altogether?

There is a difference between true and provable science, and the theoretical kind. Once you establish the difference, you can support what science "knows", and separate it from what science merely "suggests".

They really can't prove a thing that they assume to have happened all those millions of years ago......there is no proof that common ancestors ever existed, or that the "branching" seen of the "trees" of evolution, ever took place. I don't think a lot of people have any idea how much of theoretical science is unprovable assumption based on biased interpretation of their "evidence".

The truth needs to be told....
 
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